A workable compromise for the locking issue - input needed

[.kju 3244]

What is locking?

###

By default via TAB (radar locking) and right mouse button click (direct click

locking), you target/lock vehicles with most vehicle weapons.

Locking is required for guided missiles and the lock indicator can also happen

with aim (double cross cursor indicating the right lead).

What is the problem?

###

Especially TAB locking makes it very simple.

You can identify friend/foe state of a vehicle, the distance or even get to know the crew inside the vehicle.

Also it makes it possible to "see" vehicles beyond the viewable viewdistance.

Especially in PvP it dumps down the gameplay a lot and makes it very simplistic.

The controversy

###

In the real world some vehicles do have similar systems to this (most don't).

It is easy to use, very powerful and satisfying both vs AI and humans - as

long as you are the gunner (and not the target).

Bottom line - some like it, some don't.

Therefore it would be very favorable if a solution should be configurable,

so that players (in SP) and server admins can set the desired system themselves.

A possible solution

###

There is already a difficulty option called AutoGuideAT. It is active in Recruit

and Regular; disabled in Veteran and Mercenary.

With AutoGuideAT off, weapons with canLock = 1; can no longer lock - at all.

In veteran/mercenary these weapons and their "childs" are manually guided (only):

• Konkurs 9M113 (ie BMP2)
  
• M220 TOW (ie M2A2)
  
• CRV7 (AH11) (which is wrong most likely)
  

Weapons with canLock = 0; can never lock. Those with 2 can always,

no matter the current AutoGuideAT setting.

The proposed solution

###

Set canLock = 1; to all weapons except (auto/radar/IR) guided missiles.

These means missiles of choppers, planes, AAA and infantry MANPADs

(Javelin, Dragon, Stinger, Strela, Igla).

This means people can continue to play like now when AutoGuideAT is active.

Or disable locking for all but the above when AutoGuideAT is disabled.

Sample config:

http://pastebin.jonasscholz.de/1628

Perfect world?

###

There are still various other issues related to locking,

but this would be a very good start in my view.

Related issues:

Bug #16987: Gunner firing broken (blank ammo) when human pilot activates manual fire before the human gunner enters.

Bug #14297: Disabled "Auto guided AT" makes AI gunner commanded by a player no longer guide the missile.

Bug #14436: [CO] Invar-m and arkan missiles cannot be guided manually,only with auto-guiding

Bug #13380: Laser guidance for BAF Wildcat CRV-7 PG rockets fails when "Auto guide AT" is turned off in difficulty

Bug #12101: [OA] TOW control failing at distance

Feature #8890: Vikhr Missiles CfgAmmo should be changed to make the Vikhr Ground-Attack only

Feature #16255: Disable auto locking of infantry launchers or reduce automatic lock area

Feature #11200: Rockets 9M117M1 Arkan / 9M113 Konkurs / 9M119M Refleks not laser/wire-guided

Feature #14094: Add option to restrict radar locking (TAB target cycling) of vehicles

Feature #16719: Add option to disable friend-foe radar signature (difficulty setting)

Feature #17965: Add difficulty option to disable radar of vehicles

Feature #12299: Locking of _guided missiles_ does not work as pilot without gunner

What is your job?

###

Comment, discuss and promote. :bounce3:

You may also comment what weapons should remain lockable and those not

based on the above sample config.

[Dwarden 1125]

good write-up

[sickboy 13]

Great job, and the idea seems sensible!

[dm 9]

Therefore it would be very favorable if a solution should be configurable, so that players (in SP) and server admins can set the desired system themselves.

If we're going for the true realism, then it should be configured in the vehicle, and then work like its configured regardless of the settings. I suppose there should be an over-ride to allow the old system on ALL vehicles (tab lock for all) based on server/difficulty settings for those that dont want to mess with realistic targeting.

It would certainly be nice to have to designate targets (whether by tracking manually with a laser or by locking the target designator over the target for radar/ir tracking) in order to achieve lock.

The video Kotov posted in the other thread shows quite well the target designator being steered onto the target in order to achieve lock:

[[evo] dan 79]

I like the way that ACE does these kinds of things, where you have to manaully guide a lot of missiles. I hate the tab lock system for most things as it makes it far too easy to shoot stuff down when it shouldn't be.

Weapons like the stinger should have to have the aiming reticule over the aircraft you wish to target then wait for it to lock on manually, beforec firing (and make it so it can lock onto either side so you need to have aircraft recognition)

[PuFu 4599]

If we're going for the true realism, then it should be configured in the vehicle, and then work like its configured regardless of the settings. I suppose there should be an over-ride to allow the old system on ALL vehicles (tab lock for all) based on server/difficulty settings for those that dont want to mess with realistic targeting.

It would certainly be nice to have to designate targets (whether by tracking manually with a laser or by locking the target designator over the target for radar/ir tracking) in order to achieve lock.

The video Kotov posted in the other thread shows quite well the target designator being steered onto the target in order to achieve lock:

well, i guess a total re-do of the current behaviour of most of the missiles is out of scope for A2/OA anyhow. We can only hope for a better system with A3, although i for one don't have my hopes high..

Kju's idea for a workaround seems to be viable though for a "quick fix".

[Guess Who 10]

I'm seeing this from a strictly single player perspective, so TAB lock is not a "cheat" but more an abstraction for assigning a target to your gunner/CPG in tanks or helos. And there is no way to do it better from the commander's or pilot's seat in SP. But Kju's suggestion seems like a good and viable workaround even for SP; and I'm mostly playing infantry so it doesn't matter that much.

[Beagle 684]

Lock on via Tab is not the real problem. the real problem hereby is that this lock is too persistant...you can lock, turn apache around 360° and lock is still perfect. Also there is a problem with getting lock out of visual range in town and forrest clutter on stationary targets...that's impossible even for most modern Radar Systems. Also the Hellfire Missiles itself is not fire and forget, without guidance it will fly straight till impact, no guidance on moving targets by itself...it stil need guidance till impact like a Sparrow AIM-7....so you cant just fire one and instantly turn away like in ArmA II. ANother problem in ArmA II is the instant IFF...a real apacahes can easily lock on friendlies and do some

because the radar needs a lot of time to give a good IFF just by radar signature. Indeed there is too much measures in ArmA series to avoid such guided weapons FF.

INfact I see a lot of FF happening in real Simulations like DCS online, simply because IFF is not without problem...you can't IFF through ECM or without AWACS.

IFF in Helos is even more complcated since it often needs visual confirmation.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Beagle

[dm 9]

Also the Hellfire Missiles itself is not fire and forget

Depending on which model hellfire, that is or isnt true. K model LASER hellfires require constant guidance. L model RADAR hellfires (which we would be tab-locking) are infact, fire-and-forget.

[Beagle 684]

Depending on which model hellfire, that is or isnt true. K model LASER hellfires require constant guidance. L model RADAR hellfires (which we would be tab-locking) are infact, fire-and-forget.

No it is not, the K also needs a radar echo from the longbow radar...so as I said before numerous times...it's a fire and forget system, not a fire and forget missile. Whenever the Apache has to move into cover due to beeing fired at chances are high all missilles will go ballistic.

[dm 9]

Right, yes, you are correct. Tho I guess you'd ideally be operating with some linked longbow (not all with radar) helicopters, one providing you targeting info.

[Beagle 684]

Right, yes, you are correct. Tho I guess you'd ideally be operating with some linked longbow (not all with radar) helicopters, one providing you targeting info.

Thats usualy the idea about it, not all D apaches feature a longbow radar...in fact there are not enough Longbow kits to equip the whole fleet with it.

The russian use the few Ka-52s the same way for assigning targets for Ka-50s.

So what we have here in ArmA is simply too much situational awareness and fire and forget victory for lonewolving Helicopters with magic homing missiles and all seeing Odins eye.

The Tab key procedure itself is not the true problem. And it gets even more hilarious in tanks and some BRDMs...when you as a driver can assign tagets to the gunner because all crew members have a magic radar device and A.I. has a build in fire control system.

This was much better managed in original ArmA II, where only the commander had the radar thingie so only the commander could assign targets, not the driver.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Beagle

[NoRailgunner 0]

Then swap the "all-seeing-eye"/"magic radar" with something like an "InfoCom" module that can provide + display actual info/data of groups/factions within a certain range and add more infos depending on surveilance and reconnaissance. ;)

IIRC military vehicles are more and more equipped with systems which show important battlefield informations and data in realtime. Its likely that UAV/UAS will transmit such data directly into such system. That way the commander/leader gets a realtime overview even behind hills, walls and woods. Time is changing and so do weapons systems and tactics.

[Beagle 684]

Then swap the "all-seeing-eye"/"magic radar" with something like an "InfoCom" module that can provide + display actual info/data of groups/factions within a certain range and add more infos depending on surveilance and reconnaissance. ;)

IIRC military vehicles are more and more equipped with systems which show important battlefield informations and data in realtime. Its likely that UAV/UAS will transmit such data directly into such system. That way the commander/leader gets a realtime overview even behind hills, walls and woods. Time is changing and so do weapons systems and tactics.

I know this systems first hand and I can tell you this...they show nothing without actual recon...especially highly mobile ground units with small vehicles are not easy to track. Recon date needs time to be processed, most of the time you wil onyl see targets that other units have a LOS to on that systems. The all seeing eye still does not exist, it's video game feature.

MKII eyeballs ist still the "system" used most of the time and in fact in current ROE you have to see the target with MKII to identify before allowed to fire upon.

[kotov12345 10]

nice offer at least we have chance to change something.

I really not understand guys who complained because we only talking about VETERAN settings for MP games.Current situation in game completely removed usage of armor units if attack aviation is included in map.Some people prefer tanks some air units.Currently impossible to use tanks in game.so someone enjoy game someone not.

No complain if will be same in real life.But real life to kill tank with guided rocket is not simple order.Is real art and rocket launcher is not working like machine gun.

Also will be nice remove ground vehicles from radar and add FLIR or HEAT view to detect targets to lock them manually.

[Beagle 684]

Another very simple method would be to make Anti Air weapons usefull again, currently shooting Stingers or Iglas at something flying is mostly pathetic und without any effect. Helos on a MP map can stay high without any risk and have no problem with LOS since they can fly around unmolested at 1200m altitude knowing that only a tunguska can reach them there with any effect...good to be a russian in that case.

[.kju 3244]

For SP / AI commanding this would be best IMO:

Feature #13218: Add cursor to driver/pilot view in vehicles like in OFP to ease commanding the gunner or troops.

---------- Post added at 22:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

Sure countermeasure are another big problem in terms of gameplay, yet its

another topic and we do have good tickets about the issues:

Feature #12692: Countermeasures and warning system needs to be toned down a bit. ( MANPADS = laughingstock)

Feature #17821: manual disabling of aircraft auto flare required

Feature #15976: Make countermeasure flares have an hostile radar signature to confuse locking system

Bug #15980: Airplanes have too high armor (they survive 3-4 stinger hits)

Bug #20489: Beeping noise when acquiring missile lock is WAY too loud

---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:05 ----------

For advanced systems / complex rework of the locking system we have for example these:

Feature #5750: more realistic fire control for missiles

Feature #14454: Improve the Hellfire and other Helicopter lauched missile guidance system

But these are way out of scope of this ticket.

Edited December 7, 2011 by .kju [PvPscene]

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Good idea but:

What about some efforts to get us a real targetting system ?(without mods)

Enough workarounds !!!

This (problem)affects many aspects of the game...including AI's super detection abilities,viewdistance,Object distance,missiles unlimited ranges,unlimited power even after a 5km tarvel...

In real life you dont shoot vehicles with AT like cookies ... and most of weapons dont have instant lock.

As stated above (Beagle's post),air vehicles can't detect targets easily ...

Edited December 8, 2011 by On_Sabbatical

[Freeborne 10]

These forums need a "Like This" feature. I agree with kju's suggestion. TAB-locking has been very annoying and 'noobish' in Warfare games. At least in OFP it was worth-while to be the gunner yourself. Now it's mostly a waste of time for long distance engagements.

Tab-lock feels like a lazy solution to simulating computer targeting. Whacking the TAB key several times a second is too easy a way to detect and lock on with weapons.

It seems overkill when you use TAB lock in a tank. Currently you just drive around pressing tab every second and as soon as an enemy tank comes within range (before it appears on radar, and when it's well out of visual distance) your AI will lock on to it.

I hope a fix makes it into the next game update. Shouldn't have to wait until ARMA3 for this.

[Baskerville 10]

Yeah this is a good idea alot of people have wanted this for ages. Would make having a human gunner worthwhile and encourage teamwork on servers that usually use AI crews

[Beagle 684]

The most annoying fact herby is that at least for tanks it was spot on in ArmA II. But then it was screwed up in Operation Arrowhead. I still consider ArmA II the better ground war simulation for MP purposes and also air assets are at least managable...no countermeasures. With the introduction of countermeasures on aircraft at least the hitpoints should have been decreased because Aircraft flying and fighting on fully unhampered with 2 Stingers in it is pure bullshit.

[sakura_chan 9]

how would this not affect the vehicles that rely on locking in order to set the range for their guns? There are two commands, "next target" and "lock/zoom". You can disable tab locking in the controls options, but unless you want to guess the range and elevate your gun manually, you need to lock on your target. The solution would be a momentary range finder that would input the range to the gun, like in real life. Except for the anti-air vehicles, no Arma ground vehicles (in real life) have radars or weapon systems that rely on a "lock". All missiles are manually guided, whether it be infrared or laser guided. All guns are either super-elevated by the target range or require manual range input and manual elevation. If we could get the range finder system going, the whole ground vehicle lock/radar system could be scrapped completely. This would require a mod which is easy enough, but I think the original poster is looking for changes to vanilla Arma2. I don't think we are going to see any progress on that.

[sickboy 13]

Disabling tab lock does not disable right clicking on a target to lock does it?

Not sure how it relates to FCS either.

[.kju 3244]

You cannot fully block tab/direct click lock with displayEH.

Most PvP people see FCS as a "cheat" or bad for gameplay. Yes it is disabled too, if you cannot lock,

but people see that as improvement rather than a loss.

You aim by experience/training or/and by the optics systems (and some form of range input or guessing).

The changes affect OA, A2 and CO.

[sakura_chan 9]

I've been playing Steel Beasts so the idea of manual optic aiming is laughable. It would be just as silly as removing ground vehicles altogether.