Flight dynamics (important issues)

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

actually if you read the progress tracker http://dev-heaven.net/projects/toh-cit/roadmap they're not fixing any of the major flaws of the flight model. they're focusing on game stability first, so it'll take some time before we see flight model improvements.

[chapper 10]

Just signed up here to confirm that I agree with others that the flight dynamics model really needs to be fixed!

I purchased this game on steam and it has great potential to become a great helicopter simulation in the expert mode with long life ahead, but it REALLY means the issues with realism must be corrected.

There's a lot of people in the flight sim community that are hesitating buying this because of the flight model flaws. If you can nail it and make it realistic, you will get a lot more customers from the big community!

[komodo 10]

Also have to agree with what has been said about the dynamics. Its makes it very hard to fly, the delay is causing me the most problems, some of the other stuff can be 'flown around' but makes the sim very hard to fly. Realsitic it is not. I also have full helicopter flight controls and a RW pilot and they are missing the mark by quite a way. If there is anything I can do to help with the problems then BI let me know!!

BR

Rich

[nightsta1ker 10]

I am losing faith. Same issues have been present since the Community Preview. They assured us they were watching, and we were given promises of improvements, but nothing has changed. The flight dynamics still have the same issues. I don't think I once saw any improvement in the core flight dynamics during the entire CP process. The only changes that seemed to be implemented were bug fixes and some modifications to the user interface.

I am doubtful anything will be changed until a modder with some skill and attention to detail comes around and fixes it. Obviously enough people like the game. I think its a sham that they advertise authenticity and realism but have made no apparent effort to heed the MOUNDS of advice the dozen or so real pilots have heaped on their forum in the last year. Some of this stuff would really not be that hard to fix. They just need to switch some parameters around. There are many many people with the knowledge and talent that have VOLUNTEERED to help. These offers have gone ignored.

This leaves me with little choice but to take the bitter opinion that BIS does not care that their product is innaccurate, that they are fibbing to their customers, and that they have no plans to improve their product where it counts!

I am tired of whining and bickering on these forums, and though I LOVE educating people on the wonders of helicopter flight, I am growing depressed from all this talk and no improvements in sight for the game.

I keep hearing "It's not a SIMULATOR, it's a GAME, so stop acting like it should be a SIMULATOR". Let me ask this question: What separates a SIMULATOR from a GAME? The answer to keep things simple, is a level of authenticity and realism. Both of these things BIS claims on the box to have implemented in this game. Neither of which am I seeing.

Very Frustrated.

Scott

[Sinzan 10]

Hello Scott.

Thank you for your critiques, I want as authentic of an experience as I can get, I wouldn't know if it weren't for you RL pilots its definitely interesting and informative to read.

I would also like to advise patience at least until the 2nd patch that I'm sure will come.

Again, thank you Scott.

[dale0404 5]

I am losing faith. Same issues have been present since the Community Preview. They assured us they were watching, and we were given promises of improvements, but nothing has changed. The flight dynamics still have the same issues. I don't think I once saw any improvement in the core flight dynamics during the entire CP process. The only changes that seemed to be implemented were bug fixes and some modifications to the user interface.

I am doubtful anything will be changed until a modder with some skill and attention to detail comes around and fixes it. Obviously enough people like the game. I think its a sham that they advertise authenticity and realism but have made no apparent effort to heed the MOUNDS of advice the dozen or so real pilots have heaped on their forum in the last year. Some of this stuff would really not be that hard to fix. They just need to switch some parameters around. There are many many people with the knowledge and talent that have VOLUNTEERED to help. These offers have gone ignored.

This leaves me with little choice but to take the bitter opinion that BIS does not care that their product is innaccurate, that they are fibbing to their customers, and that they have no plans to improve their product where it counts!

I am tired of whining and bickering on these forums, and though I LOVE educating people on the wonders of helicopter flight, I am growing depressed from all this talk and no improvements in sight for the game.

I keep hearing "It's not a SIMULATOR, it's a GAME, so stop acting like it should be a SIMULATOR". Let me ask this question: What separates a SIMULATOR from a GAME? The answer to keep things simple, is a level of authenticity and realism. Both of these things BIS claims on the box to have implemented in this game. Neither of which am I seeing.

Very Frustrated.

Scott

Hiya Scott, hopefully what you read next will put some of your (mostly warranted) concerns at rest.

I have been playing BIS games since the original Operations Flashpoint in 2001. I have played through all the major games that BIS have released, OFP, Arma 1 (and all expansions), Arma 2 (and all DLCs) and then finally Take on Helicopters. So I do think that I have a little bit of experience in the way that BIS handles their games and the support they give them.

Some of this is going to come out as total utter fanboyism. Sorry I make no apologies, its the way I see things. Btw, I am 39 years old, been paid by the Queen for the last 20 odd years, a wife and 3 daughters; so I am not some spotty kid living in a 1 room bedsit looking at Megan Fox all day...

Hmmm.... Megan Fox..... err/

Right back on topic.

If BIS say they are watching then they are watching. You have to understand that there is a plethora of things they have to take into consideration regarding fixes / updates to the game. This can be from a sales pov, coding, game mechanics and lots of other things that I have no clue about.

BIS have always improved the games that they produce. They do not lie idle thinking thats another game out the door, where can we make our next quick quid? BIS do not operate like that.

Hopefully you have seen on these forums how helpful the team at BIS are (and of course the community). There are not many (if any) other game developers / publishers that interact this much with the community.

BIS will have taken ALL the points that people have brought up reference the game and what can be done to improve it. If they feel it can be implemented then it will be. Might not be in the first patch or the second but it will be at one point in the future.

I cant believe that for one minute "switching a few parameters around" as you so eloquently state would fix the game.

Simulators are inherently difficult to "simulate" and for a first foray into the simulator niche of the market I think BIS have done a decent job of it.

Always room for improvement though!

[AS350 10]

thanks Scott for the great feedback

can understand that you are frustrated:rolleyes:

I don´t now, but it could be possible that the problems with the FM coming not from BIS, but from here

http://www.rtdynamics.com/v2/wp/2008/rotorlib-fdm/

TOH uses RotorLib FDM,http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2035653&postcount=6

this could also explain that has nothing changed since the community preview at the FM :confused:

[armored_sheep 56]

Let set things straight. We dont call Take On Helicopters a SIMULATOR.

It is a helicopter game that brings complex helicopter pilots experience, and we like to have things as real as it gets, but still enjoyable as a game. This can be comparable aproach like Codemasters games "F1 2010/2011".

We are happy that this game attracts so many helicopter enthusiasts and even real pilots. We also like to attract newcomers without any prior experience with flying helicopters and allow them to learn and enjoy its beautiful variety world. We implemented in our game a library for helicopter flight modeling (RotorLIB) and we expanded it with things like damage, maintenance, weight, wind... The way how this library "simulates" helicopter flight is in some cases different than other simulators on the market. Our goal in this game was not to compete with DCS or X-plane simulation in terms of authenticity and precision of simulation. On the other hand we like to bring open sanbox environment that allows player to experience helicopter not just from the pilot seat and enjoy flying with more narrative driven gameplay and with increased replayability.

We will proceed improving flight model together with our partners in RTD. We definitely do care a lot about community feedback, but it would be foolish to think that some software for 40 Euro can match or substitute real life experience. Enjoy and have fun with flight!

Edited November 1, 2011 by Armored_Sheep

[twisted 128]

not a simulator is fair enough. but i bought it hoping to have a experience that was pretty damn close. it looks great, much better than most hings out there. sure i do not want dcs or xplane, but i do want to feel that i am enjoying something close to the experience of helicopter flight.

valid points have been made here based on peoples passion for the game. and i hope the tweaks needed do not seem to be redoing the flight model as a whole but of specific elements. but what do i know hey?

so i guess the question is how much can be changed as "Fully reconfigurable using XML configuration files."

if you're setting things straight, it would be nice to have expectations straightened out as to what you as DEVs think can be possible to tweak? pedal authority? descent rate increase? yaw action on collective?

:confused:

i have for years supported BIS as they are a company that always improves their games to make some of the best experiences out there. i will continue to support BIS going forward based on the same attitude.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

This can be comparable aproach like Codemasters games "F1 2010/2011".

Man, couldn't you at least have picked something else? You know how much we love to hate them, and I expected you guys to do the same :D

[royaltyinexile 175]

Man, couldn't you at least have picked something else?

Rest assured, his keyboard spontaneously burst into flames moments later. :D

OT, our first planned patch is primarily focused upon a number of stability and exe optimisations, which didn't make it into the release candidate testing and final build. Then, of course, there are a couple of simple issues identified post-release, which we'll seek to address in the short-term. Although it's of little benefit to those unfortunately suffering problems, I'd cautiously consider the Take On launch as one of the more stable PC releases of late. Yet, as I've noted previously, we're, of course, busy working on improving the game, and resolving issue for those who've encountered them.

The turn-around for flight-dynamics fixes and tweaks are, unfortunately, not as simple as one might hope, but a second patch is due to address some issues. It is, of course, not worthwhile promising specific features or fixes to any precise degree. There are a lot of factors which can affect our post-release development milestones. However, I'd note that Ground Effect, Dissymmetry of lift, and rate of descent are some of the aspects under evaluation.

Although there are no concrete guarantees in development, BI's history of supporting their releases speaks for itself, and I'd consider accusations of false advertising a little coarse. :) I'd also repeat some of the sentiments pertaining to the progressive, successful and enjoyable aspects of our game, which Armoured/Armored Sheep correctly eluded to above.

Best,

RiE

[venquessa 10]

Let set things straight. We dont call Take On Helicopters a SIMULATOR.

It is a helicopter game that brings complex helicopter pilots experience, and we like to have things as real as it gets, but still enjoyable as a game. This can be comparable aproach like Codemasters games "F1 2010/2011".

For me I find this approach often leads to quirky, unintuitive and just plan difficult game play.

It's one thing to create a helicopter game with nice, easy smooth game like controls and flight model.

It's another thing to create a 'realistic' and highly detailed helicopter simulation.

But to aim for the middle ground you need to simplify the flight model, and then model what you do model properly and accurately. So you might skip VRS and tail rotor induced slip or stuff like that, but the things you do model need to be done accurately. Not necessarily presicely, but accurately.

If you don't model what you model accurately, then it is not an immersive experience of helicopter flight, it's just trying to master a quirky fictional monster of game play.

Just IMHO.

Paul

[scarp 10]

if you're setting things straight, it would be nice to have expectations straightened out as to what you as DEVs think can be possible to tweak? pedal authority? descent rate increase? yaw action on collective?

:confused:

I agree, and add to the list: ground effect is still too strong and needs to feel more like a cushioning effect rather than the current ballooning effect. And then the way overdone trim that is needed between the different stages of flight, waaaaay over done. The latter is actually so overdone that it is almost rendering the whole illusion of flying helicopters unusable he he. I must add, I fly only on expert, so my references to the FD are based on that, all other modes I cant speak for as I haven't tried them much.

Other than that, I am a happy camper and I see tremendous possibilities with this little software, especially if some patches that adresses the FD are released or that we/users get our hands on the SDK for the flight model.

The sooner the better

[Panther353 10]

I think it is important to remember that FSX, X-Plane and ToH are all entertainment titles. X-Plane might be closer to a true simulator but the others are clearly marketed and sold as games.

[anthonye 0]

Let set things straight. We dont call Take On Helicopters a SIMULATOR.

It is a helicopter game that brings complex helicopter pilots experience, and we like to have things as real as it gets, but still enjoyable as a game. This can be comparable aproach like Codemasters games "F1 2010/2011".

!

I think the Sim/Game is really great takes awhile to get into the editor even for basic stuff, but I am really enjoying all of it.

You can't compare your progs to Codemasters, they just ignor comments and don't listen to the forums or interact at all with them. Yor come here to answer/ listen posts, they don't, that's why I like your business setup.

Well done

Anthony

[Chris CDN 10]

I am losing faith. Same issues have been present since the Community Preview. They assured us they were watching, and we were given promises of improvements, but nothing has changed. The flight dynamics still have the same issues. I don't think I once saw any improvement in the core flight dynamics during the entire CP process. The only changes that seemed to be implemented were bug fixes and some modifications to the user interface.

I am doubtful anything will be changed until a modder with some skill and attention to detail comes around and fixes it. Obviously enough people like the game. I think its a sham that they advertise authenticity and realism but have made no apparent effort to heed the MOUNDS of advice the dozen or so real pilots have heaped on their forum in the last year. Some of this stuff would really not be that hard to fix. They just need to switch some parameters around. There are many many people with the knowledge and talent that have VOLUNTEERED to help. These offers have gone ignored.

This leaves me with little choice but to take the bitter opinion that BIS does not care that their product is innaccurate, that they are fibbing to their customers, and that they have no plans to improve their product where it counts!

I am tired of whining and bickering on these forums, and though I LOVE educating people on the wonders of helicopter flight, I am growing depressed from all this talk and no improvements in sight for the game.

I keep hearing "It's not a SIMULATOR, it's a GAME, so stop acting like it should be a SIMULATOR". Let me ask this question: What separates a SIMULATOR from a GAME? The answer to keep things simple, is a level of authenticity and realism. Both of these things BIS claims on the box to have implemented in this game. Neither of which am I seeing.

Very Frustrated.

Scott

I can't agree with you enough. There were quite a few RL helo guys who offered to provide input at no cost, why they didn't take advantage of it I will never know.

Take On Helicopters should more accurately be titled "Look we made a really cool map of Seattle"

[.kju 3244]

Did you read what he said?

(...) We implemented in our game a library for helicopter flight modeling (RotorLIB) and we expanded it with things like damage, maintenance, weight, wind... The way how this library "simulates" helicopter flight is in some cases different than other simulators on the market. (...)

We will proceed improving flight model together with our partners in RTD. We definitely do care a lot about community feedback, (...)

Edited November 1, 2011 by .kju [PvPscene]

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

AGAIN? nightsta1ker?

I imagine TakeonH will get just as much post-release support as with past BIS titles.

The game has been released for a week.

Have patience.

You may know something about flying, but you appear naive about game development and support. This kind of criticism doesn't help the developer or the community... and makes you look like a spoiled child.

[Derbysieger 11]

-Ziggy-;2048875']AGAIN? nightsta1ker?

I imagine TakeonH will get just as much post-release support as with past BIS titles.

The game has been released for a week.

Have patience.

You may know something about flying' date=' but you appear naive about game development and support. This kind of criticism doesn't help the developer or the community... and makes you look like a spoiled child.[/quote']

Very true.

@nightsta1ker:

I think feedback from RL pilots is very important and you seem to know how a helicopter should handle but please be a bit more patient. The developers are aware of the issues but they are no wizards. Give them time to bring out 2-3 patches or wait until they are ready to start beta-patch testing.

Kind Regards

[zoog 18]

I don't think the problem here is game vs simulator or how detailed things should be or what TKOH should compete with.

I think the biggest problem nightstalker and others raise is that apparently certain things, according to them (I'm no real pilot so I don't know), are simply implemented wrong. Like dyssemetry of lift being modeled to the wrong side. Thus I think the issue that is raised is not about implementing it most realistically as possible, like trying to create an experience like a professional training simulator or not. I think it's about the fact that the things that are implemented should be implemented correctly. So not necessarily exactly 100% like real life (virtually impossible), but at least correct in general.

[nightsta1ker 10]

I am not trying to stir the pot. I am just tired of posting the same thugs again and again. First I wa told it was my hardware. Then that it was my settings and It has been insinuated by some that my expectations are too high. I have been heavy on this forum since the first announcement of this game, so saying I need more patience before something is done about these issues is a little silly on my view.

To get down to brass tacks, the purpose of my last post was to say that I am done talking. Now it's time for someone to fix it. That's it.

If the poor FDE is due to a third party program, then perhaps another should be examined as a replacement. I remember when Fred Naar offered his assistance. He has developed an awesome helicopter simulator program to supplement FSX. Its not perfect but it at least simulates the behavior correctly and gives a much more convincin feel. His program is already being used in an upcoming independent simulator called Combat Helo. I would seriously consider contacting that man. He has his ducks in a row.

I really don't care what any of you think of me or my posts. You can all formulate your own opinions. When, if, some improvements are made, or if BIS decides that they want to take the pilot feedback more seriously and try to find some solutions to these issues, I will be available. Until then, I am done mucking around arguing about what this game should or should not be. All I can say at this point is that it does not live up to it's

billing. I know fixing it may take some time. I am not being impatient or naive here. I also make no apology for my remarks. I'm getting off my soapbox now. Relax.

[Derbysieger 11]

I see your point. I hope we hear from you again when BIS gives us the first patches/beta-patches with improvements/corrections on the flight model.

[nightsta1ker 10]

I see your point. I hope we hear from you again when BIS gives us the first patches/beta-patches with improvements/corrections on the flight model.

I will be around. I'm not running off to go sulk or anything ; )

[Xptical 10]

What's your opinion of X-Plane, FSX, and/or Black Shark?

Not a hijack, just wondering what those others feel like compared to TOH...

[Lightningstrike 10]

I would say FSX is out of question, but anyways i was about to ask the same question, especially how is it comparable to this BK-117 for xplane9 ?

http://nd-art-and-technology.com/BK117_video.html