Is the Arma Communtiy getting too obsessed with legal issuse such as EULA's ?

[celery 8]

Strawman 101

1. Criticize policy forbidding free creation of missions and hosting them on your own server

2. "Why do you want to disrespect and steal our addons!?"

[=wfl= sgt bilko 10]

I don't know how many of you are familiar with their BF2-mod. Their mod is a full concept (even though it's free of charge). They have a vision on what/how they want this mod to play out. That also includes missions.

From my experience from PR:BF2 I'll predict that the mod will change a lot from current 0.1 beta release and onwards. That also means that any mission created now might not even be usable in comming releases.

Their way of assuring that it stays within their vision is to scrutinize missions and add those they see fit with that vision for every release (this is nothing new for PR, it is the same for comminity made maps in PR:BF2).

It all seems pretty easy to me, if you disagree or just don't like their concept (including the limitation enforced by the EULA) - then don't download or play it. Plenty of other maps/mods/missions to play around with.

However you will be missing out on something good.

[dmarkwick 261]

Yes. Only for private use, of course. For small PR tournament in my town.

Then if you already know how it works why the moaning?

[DAP 619]

:D

Then if you already know how it works why the moaning?

Who moaning? :D At-ta-ta :nono: Be more friendly and more polite, please ;) Here is all friends, right? ;) Main reason: I can't do it anymore, as I want :D Why I can't create my own mission with PR features and play with friends? Why I need their permission for run my server with PR mod (stock) and my custom missions? Can you name a real reason? I don't think so.

Main answer: "If you don't like this restrictions - don't play" :D Sounds strange :) Especially when we have mission editor. If you dislike something - change it. Otherwise, everyone would have played without custom addons.

Edited August 26, 2011 by DAP

[dmarkwick 261]

Who moaning? :D At-ta-ta :nono: Be more friendly and more polite, please ;) Here is all friends, right? ;) Main reason: I can't do it anymore, as I want :D Why I can't create my own mission with PR features and play with friends? Why I need their permission for run my server with PR mod (stock) and my custom missions? Can you name a real reason? I dont think so.

Well, I can name some reasons, but as they've already been mentioned I'll just pass on repeating :)

BTW, I might agree on the mission thing, but as far as I've seen "released" seems to mean "included with the mod", unless the editor is nerfed I cannot see how anyone can stop you simply making some mission for your own purposes, i.e. not on any of the official servers, much as you did with the PR:BF version.

In any case, this mod should be viewed as a closed game with specific mission content only, that seems to be it's focus. As such, use it as that, that's how it was designed.

[DAP 619]

Well, I can name some reasons, but as they've already been mentioned I'll just pass on repeating :)

BTW, I might agree on the mission thing, but as far as I've seen "released" seems to mean "included with the mod", unless the editor is nerfed I cannot see how anyone can stop you simply making some mission for your own purposes, i.e. not on any of the official servers, much as you did with the PR:BF version.

In any case, this mod should be viewed as a closed game with specific mission content only, that seems to be it's focus. As such, use it as that, that's how it was designed.

I will not say any word against, if they (PR team) will not prevent to anyone create PR server with custom maps :D Anyway, let's see what they made :)

[JdB 151]

Regarding the topic title, I wouldn't say that the community is getting too obsessed with legal issues, imo it's been the increasing challenging of, and lack of respect for, a creator's rights and wishes. Some may oppose restrictions in EULAs/license agreements due to what they perceive as an artificial limit on the creativity of the users, but I think a whole lot more have their own "personal use" interests at heart, ranging from personal edits, to unauthorized derivatives to monetary gain from theft.

I don't want continue discussion :) Now it all clear for all. But one thing :) And I against it :) They create precedent :) Now any other modmaker can do something like this or even worst :) This policy can freeze community's creation ability.

It's only one mod. One that is very popular and has a lot of experience creating a good mod, but it's still only one mod. The great thing about ArmA's community has always been (although often cursed by some that only want to see mods with a similar subject bundling into megamods) that there are always alternatives to an addon/mod, developed by people that have slightly different ideas about how the subject should be handled. The fact that no one has come up with this particular "restriction"* shows that the idea isn't overwhelmingly popular, and so I don't see it becoming standard practice. No one is forcing anyone to use Project Reality or any addon/mod in particular, but if you use it out of your own free will, you are legally bound to the terms in the license as set by the developer.

* I put "restriction" it in quotation marks since it's not so much a restriction, the way I see it they intend it first and foremost as a means of quality control, and keeping the design philosophy intact.

Edited August 26, 2011 by JdB

[rhaggan 10]

I personsonaly don't see any problems with restrictions placed on a MOD or a mission, the main point in most EULA's is asking permission. Its not that hard to do and im most cases people generaly will give permission. Its the attitude of some of the community who assume because it has been released they can do what they please. Its like the London riots not so long a go when people see others doing it with no reprocussions then other will start to do it and then before long you will have the community died because then people will not want to relase mods or missions because you won't get credit for your work and most people weill go to hell with that why should i put in work fo others to break it appart and use it outside of what i have asked. If the community can't respect the wishes of an addon maker or a mision maker then the community seriously needs to take a good look in the mirror.

Did the same thing not happen a number of years ago with the P:UKF guys and as a result a number of their models where never released and because of this the community lost out to some twats who can respect the right of the addon makers.

The community has rights but not where they infringe on those of the guys who make the addons, missions or mods. Rights come with responsibility if you do not behave in a respectable manner then you loose the rights because it is your resposibility to uphold the rights of others.

[celery 8]

I personsonaly don't see any problems with restrictions placed on a MOD or a mission, the main point in most EULA's is asking permission. Its not that hard to do and im most cases people generaly will give permission. Its the attitude of some of the community who assume because it has been released they can do what they please. Its like the London riots not so long a go when people see others doing it with no reprocussions then other will start to do it and then before long you will have the community died because then people will not want to relase mods or missions because you won't get credit for your work and most people weill go to hell with that why should i put in work fo others to break it appart and use it outside of what i have asked. If the community can't respect the wishes of an addon maker or a mision maker then the community seriously needs to take a good look in the mirror.

Did the same thing not happen a number of years ago with the P:UKF guys and as a result a number of their models where never released and because of this the community lost out to some twats who can respect the right of the addon makers.

The community has rights but not where they infringe on those of the guys who make the addons, missions or mods. Rights come with responsibility if you do not behave in a respectable manner then you loose the rights because it is your resposibility to uphold the rights of others.

Who are you even talking to? When was the last time someone infringed on a mod by stealing its content and got away with it? When did making missions and hosting them become a violation of a modder's rights? Furthermore, you speak of not giving credit, yet I don't see the direct copy of the STHud being credited by the PR team.

The community has thrived for 10 years with an open source philosophy, everyone learning from each other and properly crediting things that aren't original content. It's been a long death, hasn't it?

[rhaggan 10]

Its my opinion aimed at no one in general.

[maddogx 13]

Anyone wanting to learn from the PR mod can still do so:

UK_Force;2010563']

I want to get this clear' date=' PR Arma 2 isn't compatible with Arma 2 or OA right? What I meant is I can't use those units If I want to use the editor to make missions and stuff right? [/quote']There will be nothing "technically" stopping you do this no.

Of course you may do what you want in the editor, and in private for your own use as per the EULA....

[-GR-Operative 10]

Iron Front. If they want get paid for their work, then need move on Iron Front's route.

Why are you so mad about what PRteam decides to do with their work? Also, they signed with BI, so it's possible some of the rules come strictly from the studios.

Their work, their decision. Don't like it? So don't play it. After all, it's free to use, but it's still their content and it's not to be ripped by others, if they don't want it to be.

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ----------

So addon makers can get something from the restricted use of their addons? Maybe. But mission makers have no freedom for creation with this "restricted use of their addons". And ppl who dislike stock missions. So why this public release? :) Maybe better stay in own closed community?

Why the public release? Because they are cool enough to let us use they work for free (like all modders around here). But this community is starting a issue where there is no issue. I wanna see everybody's face if they say that, thanks to the negative reaction, they are pulling it out.

[DAP 619]

Operative;2011582']Why are you so mad about what PRteam decides to do with their work? Also' date=' they signed with BI, so it's possible some of the rules come strictly from the studios.

Their work, their decision. Don't like it? So don't play it. After all, it's free to use, but it's still their content and it's not to be ripped by others, if they don't want it to be.[/quote']

Sorry, pal :) But maybe you reread this topic again :) Please :) No one talks about their content. Their content - their rules. But what about something, what was created for their content (missions) by other ppl. This is belong to them too? They can set rules and for this results of creative actions?

[-GR-Operative 10]

Sorry, pal :) But maybe you reread this topic again :) Please :) No one talks about their content. Their content - their rules. But what about something, what was created for their content (missions) by other ppl. This is belong to them too? They can set rules and for this results of creative actions?

Yeah, they can.

[DAP 619]

Operative;2011591']Yeah' date=' they can.[/quote']

Ok. No questions :cool:

[Sealife 22]

But what about something, what was created for their content (missions) by other ppl. This is belong to them too? They can set rules and for this results of creative actions?

Hi i just read this thread and other which is closed and you seem to represent a view shadowed by other mission makers, i wonder if you can clarify some questions so i may follow better the all problem.

You are a mission maker who wants to make Missions with PR content and play them with your friends it seems to me ?

My question is PR is only missions not Tanks soldiers (they have(not tanks) but no different than available for last 12 months) , what is it that you want to take from PR and use without consenting to there ideology, i just cant understand there is anything they have you want, but yet you seem to want it , it cannot be there PVP mission style as its already out by PvP scene for more than one year .

I would very much appreciate a clarification so i may follow easily afterall i signed here after many years for this :).

My other guess is you simply want to destroy there Ideology of trying to create a very Tightly monitored Mp scene maybe but this couldnt be right because only PR failing could achieve this ?

thankyou

[noubernou 77]

Skipping the whole missions issue with the PR EULA, my issue was that they restricted you from using any additional content, even with their official missions. That is just silly and they have no grounds for it.

If PR is restricted by BIS from doing all this, then BIS made a bad choice, but I do not see BIS being the cause here. It is PR and them basically not understanding the culture that has risen up here in the Arma community. People should be free to use whatever mods they want in conjunction with other mods, especially if they are not modifying any of them in any way.

Does PR have to support it? No, of course not, there are plenty of mods already out there that are "use at your own risk with other mods" but to say "you are legally not allowed to use this with other mods" reeks of elitism and a flagrant misunderstanding of how a EULA works, and how much it can contractually bind you to doing something (which in the US is pretty little when its not actually SIGNED but just a click through OK).

---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 ----------

What really will get my goat though is if PR gets to use the same technology to encrypt their PBOs as BIS does for BAF/PMC. I think that should be made available to community members if they feel that their content is "worth" protecting.

Granted I wouldn't want to see a massive use of it, because I think in the end it would hurt creativity (at least for coders), but when there is potential for content in ArmA2 to also be content for VBS2 then I think protections need to be made available for everyone who feels they need to use it.

[Sealife 22]

especially if they are not modifying any of them in any way.

But isnt it the case the Mods will have to be modified and PR do not want / have enough members to support modified content,If we took ace as an example and someone decided to make a MyAce using modified content , then there would be everyday here Myace doent work with _x along side Ace Does not work with _x ?

But of course again PR seems to only be reworked BAf (already avaialable in BIS quality) so why would anyone wish to take someones work when they can do nothing with it ?.

It seems i have discovered all the talk is very Hypothetical and i should wait till release , i thought maybe there is genbuine plausible concern but now hearing addon fears and mission fears there is only a psychological fear at this time, no wonder i could not follow the thread.

[noubernou 77]

But isnt it the case the Mods will have to be modified and PR do not want / have enough members to support modified content,If we took ace as an example and someone decided to make a MyAce using modified content , then there would be everyday here Myace doent work with _x along side Ace Does not work with _x ?

But of course again PR seems to only be reworked BAf (already avaialable in BIS quality) so why would anyone wish to take someones work when they can do nothing with it ?.

Go back, re-read my post. Then try again.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

Operative;2011591']Yeah' date=' they can.[/quote']

No, they cant. :rolleyes:

You can do whatever you want with PR after you acquire it as long as you do not intend to make copies of it or violate their trademark in any sort of way. Modifying it for your own personal use, creating content that uses it (as in missions) all of that is totally legal.

Their EULA is complete FUD.

[DAP 619]

Hi i just read this thread and other which is closed and you seem to represent a view shadowed by other mission makers, i wonder if you can clarify some questions so i may follow better the all problem.

You are a mission maker who wants to make Missions with PR content and play them with your friends it seems to me ?

My question is PR is only missions not Tanks soldiers (they have(not tanks) but no different than available for last 12 months) , what is it that you want to take from PR and use without consenting to there ideology, i just cant understand there is anything they have you want, but yet you seem to want it , it cannot be there PVP mission style as its already out by PvP scene for more than one year .

I would very much appreciate a clarification so i may follow easily afterall i signed here after many years for this :).

My other guess is you simply want to destroy there Ideology of trying to create a very Tightly monitored Mp scene maybe but this couldnt be right because only PR failing could achieve this ?

thankyou

What I want take from PR? :) Heh.. PR :) Not units, vehicles, factions, even missions. But PR game mechanic. PR ideology, as you say. Because it already worked well in BF2. And try implement it for any units and any gamemodes or create new gamemodes with PR functions. Like platform, which add new, unique, gameplay elements in missions. Any missions, even coop against AI. Not only PvP. And I want make it free, without any strange limitations and restrictions. And if someone likes same thing, then he can play this mission free too.

Edited August 26, 2011 by DAP

[Sealife 22]

You can do whatever you want with PR after you acquire it as long as you do not intend to make copies of it or violate their trademark in any sort of way. Modifying it for your own personal use, creating content that uses it (as in missions) all of that is totally legal.

Their EULA is complete FUD.

I was going too but , i see you have since expanded your motive beyond just BIS and PR but now EULA , thats far too complex an argument for the time i have :).

What I want take from PR? Heh.. PR Not units, vehicles, factions, even missions. But PR game mechanic. PR ideology, as you say. Because it already worked well in BF2. And try implement it for any units and any gamemodes or create new gamemodes with PR functions. Like platform, which add new, unique, gameplay elements in missions. Any missions, even coop against AI. Not only PvP.

I think they said you can submit or join them in last few post of closed thread maybe thats your route or is it PR itself you dont want but only there work ?

either way i go back lurking now thanks for your reply i am now more informed to read on

thankyou

Edited August 26, 2011 by Thromp

[noubernou 77]

Also, hosting your own server however you like is probably fine as well as long as you do not specify that it is some how sanctioned by PR. Since they are not providing you a service, and you are freely hosting the service yourself I can't think of anything that would prevent a person from running additional content with their server and be violating anything tangible of PR.

Remember that the right of first sale applies even when a product is given away, and usually is harder to argue on for things like damages, infringement, or violation of rights. ;)

This is especially true when they don't even own the rights to the platform the game is being played on, they really have no legal right to say to you how it is to be played.

Edited August 26, 2011 by NouberNou

[max power 21]

I think even PR was saying something about using unofficial stuff in the privacy of your own home is allowed by their EULA. Maybe I misread the post.

There is a difference between what is perfectly legal and what is enforceable, for lack of a better word. I would like to see the laws that state altering copyrighted media in your own home is legal. Like if you reverse engineered windows 7, you're saying that it's legal as long as you hide it? On one hand, it is important that you don't make a big fuss about what you can't control, because when you do that it hurts your credibility. I do however believe that restrictions do extend to what you do in privacy.

[noubernou 77]

I think even PR was saying something about using unofficial stuff in the privacy of your own home is allowed by their EULA. Maybe I misread the post.

There is a difference between what is perfectly legal and what is enforceable, for lack of a better word. I would like to see the laws that state altering copyrighted media in your own home is legal. Like if you reverse engineered windows 7, you're saying that it's legal as long as you hide it? On one hand, it is important that you don't make a big fuss about what you can't control, because when you do that it hurts your credibility. I do however believe that restrictions do extend to what you do in privacy.

In the US there are laws against reverse engineering. Look at the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. That being said, I never said anything about reverse engineering and pretty much everything else is fair game and a lot of it falls under fair use and a number of other ideas.

What I am saying that PR cant tell you what you can and can not do with their product in terms of playing it with modifications or not. They have no legal precedent and no legal jurisdiction to make these agreements enforceable.

Seriously, in the end, what are they going to sue you for, PR that is? You host up a server that runs PR, that they gave to you for free, and it runs another modification for whatever, or it runs custom missions? What damages could they seek, realistically. They make no profit off of this (they can't according to the EULA of BIS ;)) so there is no monetary damages. If the person isn't claiming that PR officially sponsors their modification then they can't really go after damage to their name or brand (again also which would be insane, since they do not/can not make money off of it)... So what do they go after?

If BIS is trying to imply agreements through PR for us to use the BAF content in PR then that is a whole other ball game, one that is probably even more tricky and unenforceable. They can claim copyright, that is fine, but using the product unmodified in a capacity that is allowed by default is hardly something that could be restricted. :rolleyes:

[hellfire257 3]

In the case of PR, almost everything in the terms and conditions was a direct attack against the spirit of the community. No EULA will prevent theft, and imposing laughably strict restrictions only makes the addon team seem like self-important pricks on an ego trip. Theft has, is, and will always be dealt with whenever it's discovered.

+1.

I can understand and fully support protecting ones work but stopping people from freely hosting servers and distributing their own missions is beyond the joke. In my opinion, its not the ARMA community that's become obsessed, its others coming in from elsewhere that are obsessed. It is alien and it isn't what this community is about. In my opinion, such an attitude shouldn't be welcome here.