Is the Arma Communtiy getting too obsessed with legal issuse such as EULA's ?

[DAP 619]

Wait till PR Mod is released, try it out and decide if you like it or not. Simple.

If you have questions - ask them friendly and I'm sure you will get a answer from PR devs (sooner or later).

We reap what we sow.

This is not about PR. Any mod team can try this method. Maby even ACE :D

Edited August 27, 2011 by DAP

[Bee8190 10]

Great point of view :D Very revealing :D So I can say: Take your hands off from ARMA :D Go find another engine for PR :D

I see you given your though the best shot, suggesting that after months of free work, thousands of players who bought arma CO to try this mod and were looking forward to it for over a year, can put their games back on shelf?

Becouse I yet to see REAL reason of your enless ranting and wall of total garbage.

Well and i suggest; slap yourself...

[noubernou 77]

*puts his novice lawyer suit on* (TL DR version at the bottom)

Alright, its seems that everyone is thinking here that whatever is written in EULA can't be backed up by legal actions. Well, I am sorry to say this but heres a news flash for you:

Yes they can!

I might not know much about US laws, but in most EU countries, EULA or even a TOS acts as the lowest point of a law tree so to speak. Like I said in the PR topic, most laws are categorized in a tree like fashion. The top one being the Constitution. No matter what, Constitution must be followed, including making new laws or changing old ones. Only way to make a new entry in the Constitution, modify it or delete an entry is to have a country wide public vote called referendum.

Anyway, thats not the point I am trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that EULA, TOS or any license agreement that comes with a software product (either retail or from digital distribution) is at the lowest point in the law tree. Just like school rules are, where they have written rules what a student can and can't do. So whatever is written in any EULA of software (including the PR EULA), you have to follow it, no matter of what.

Yes, software authors are allowed to write anything they wish in a EULA. Well, not everything of course (they have to follow the higher tier laws in the law tree), but if that means when you install the software, you are not allowed to make additional content for this software (missions, new models or textures etc). Breaching that point can result from cease and deceit to a law suit. Normally, law suit is only allowed when there is a serious damage done.

Another good fact is that EULAs not only say what you can and what you can't do with a software, its also a legal bind between the end user and the author about using the software its self.

--------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, thats enough about EULA itself, there is also another fact I want talk about.

Let's say I make an addon. An addon that is purely dedicated around in improving the Warfare game mode. The addon has lots of new features, like a proper RTS mode for a commander, new vehicles and so on. Like a total conversion mod purely dedicated around the warfare game mode. I made the addon to improve Warfare according to my taste and visions. And one of my visions about Warfare itself should had been like this from the beginning. Now, the best way for me to keep that vision, is to use a EULA similar to PR. That means, I can be assured that my vision about Warfare remains, it is going to be as I made it and no one can ruin that.

That is kinda something similar to PR. But NOT EXACTLY THE SAME.

I understand that all mission and mod makers out here, in this community like to rip, rape, modify, do WHATEVER the hell they wish with an addon. Its just like communisim, right? Well, that brings me to a problem that every non-mission and non-addon makers (aka the players) have at the moment and just stick with vanilla Arma 2: A lot of communities are using X versions and Y versions of this and that.

For example, lets take ACE. There are only few public servers that just run plain ACE and/or their respective addons. And when I mean few I mean 1-5. And out of those few, 50%-80% are locked servers. That usually means, that a player wanting to play with ACE on a public server has to go and even download MORE addons just so he can play ACE on a domination mission. But once he reaches there, it actually turns out that this domination is not so much domination any more. Its has been rape modified to hell.

Thats something that PR wants to exclude. They don't want to have servers where medics have unlimited bandages and other stuff. They don't want servers where there are more (and by more, I mean 10 or even more) addons ran at the same time that have nothing to do with PR at all (for example, a bunch of ACE servers are running a X or Y island addon without there being missions for it).

This way, PR can accomplish 1 mayor thing on the multiplayer scene: A player only needs to download 1 setup file or archive, install the addon and he doesn't need to download anything else. THIS is what PR is trying to achieve.

-----------------------------------------

EULA: No matter what, you must follow them or be prepared for legal action.

(Example: Mafia 2 demo)

PR: 1 download only, no need to download any other addons that don't have anything to do with PR at all. Helps players by letting them play the damn thing and not download a bunch of pointless addons.

And finally:

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, YOU CAN GO AWAY. No one is forcing you to play PR:

More FUD.

I never said EULA are worthless. Yes they are a binding contract in a lot of cases, though in the US the extent of their conditions is wildly contested and depending on the court (where you are in the country, who is on the jury that case, who is the judge that case, etc) the results can differ substantially.

My point is, and I am pretty sure that every court in the US would agree with me on this if it ever was taken to trial, is that PR can not restrict you from using another piece of software that they have no legal ownership or right to enter into contract with you. So as long as no one touches PR's code or models then anyone can continue to use ArmA2 in exactly the way they always have. PR has no legal basis to establish new clauses to the EULA that you are already in agreement with BIS. It is as simple as that. So no, I do not have to do what PRs EULA says if the basis for their conditions is to violate my previously established and unrelated contractual agreement with BIS.

Edited August 27, 2011 by NouberNou

[rksl-rock 1301]

...

My point is, and I am pretty sure that every court in the US would agree with me on this if it ever was taken to trial, is that PR can not restrict you from using another piece of software that they have no legal ownership or right to enter into contract with you. So as long as no one touches PR's code or models then anyone can continue to use ArmA2 in exactly the way they always have. PR has no legal basis to establish new clauses to the EULA that you are already in agreement with BIS. It is as simple as that. So no, I do not have to do what PRs EULA says if the basis for their conditions is to violate my previously established and unrelated contractual agreement with BIS.

So what you are saying is that just because PR is only a non commercial mod and dependant on ArmA2 that ArmA2's commercial EULA, ArmAs EULA wins out?

Thats "FUD" too.

Just because one product runs within another does not make one the master product/EULA. THe second EULA cannot legally stop you doing something with base/host platform but it can restrict you using the 2nd product for unintended purposes.

There are plenty of precedents for this. MS Flight Sim and both payware and freeware addons spring readily to mind. WoW game expansions, Several Unreal mods, X-Plane mods and more than a few other games commercial and non-commercial. Not to mention Windows and Adobe, Macromedia, Sybex, Autodesk, Apple, GNU/GPL licensed products and so many others.

The only way your claim would be true was if the PR EULA tried to restrict you from making ANY content in ArmA2's engine. From what I have read so far all I can see is PR saying they want to restrict how their content is used and distributed. (Which is their right). They make no conflicting claim toward any ArmA2 content or anything that i can see that would undermine or conflict with the BIS EULA for ArmA2.

In the context of the ArmA community, PR's EULA seems harsh. But looking outside this little insular corner of the virtual world. Its not that uncommon.

Edited August 27, 2011 by RKSL-Rock
clarification and some expansion.

[noubernou 77]

So what you are saying is that just because PR is only a non commercial mod and that ArmA2's commercial EULA, ArmAs EULA wins out?

Thats "FUD" too.

FPDR I never said anything about the cost or if it was commercial or non-commercial, at least in the context you have seemed to have misunderstood... :rolleyes:

Just because one product runs within another does not make one the master product/EULA. THe second EULA cannot legally stop you doing something with base/host platform but it can restrict you using the 2nd product for unintended purposes.

Not if what they are restricting is already available abilities in the first product that they are modifying themselves.

I am done with this thread for now. Too many fanboy idiots and people that can not understand simple legal concepts.

My advice to people is do not use Project Reality for ArmA2 until they adjust their EULA to not violate your rights to use ArmA2 as you purchased it.

[DAP 619]

There are plenty of precedents for this. MS Flight Sim and both payware and freeware addons spring readily to mind. WoW game expansions, Several Unreal mods, X-Plane mods and more than a few other games commercial and non-commercial. Not to mention Windows and Adobe, Macromedia, Sybex, Autodesk, Apple, GNU/GPL licensed products and so many others.

Can you give some real examples, when mod's EULA restrict some kind of actions for this mod with general abilities of original product?

[JdB 151]

Can you give some real examples, when mod's EULA restrict some kind of actions for this mod with general abilities of original product?

But that's not the case here. PR doesn't disable the mission editor, or the ability to save missions, the only thing the EULA does seek to prevent people from doing is to release missions using PR content without approval. Nothing from the original game is disabled or altered in PR, only the one single thing that can be directly produced from using PR in combination with ArmA2, the missions, is regulated by the EULA. Also there are plenty of mods that alter the way ArmA2 works, including removing features for whatever reason (like realism), so those mods are restricting general abilities of the original product as well, that's the nature of a mod(ification).

Edited August 27, 2011 by JdB

[rksl-rock 1301]

Can you give some real examples, when mod's EULA restrict some kind of actions for this mod with general abilities of original product?

Not really because none of the examples i cited do that. And nor was i arguing that was the case.

They all exist within a host platform that has a commercial EULA. All come with thier own restrictions to use that you agree to on purchase/download and install. And all have been tried and tested in various legal forums and courts over the years.

It seems you assuming that PR is preventing you from using ArmA2 in its intended form. PR's published EULA isnt preventing using ArmA2 as intended is it. It just preventing you creating and distributing content dependant on PR's mod. Your rights to use ArmA2 in the intended way are not infringed at all. And since PR is a voluntary optional product those restrictions are not being forced on you are they.

We've already had several people state that EULAs are legal and enforcable. (Although the results and penalties vary depending on courts). So where is the problem?

OK the EULA is strict and in the context of the ArmA community unprecedented. Its offending some of the open-source crowd but its not illegal. As has been suggested before in this very thread. If you dont like it vote with your (virtual) feet and and walk away.

So I really dont see what all the fuss is about.

[DAP 619]

But that's not the case here. PR doesn't disable the mission editor, or the ability to save missions, the only thing the EULA does seek to prevent people from doing is to release missions using PR content without approval. Nothing from the original game is disabled or altered in PR, only the one single thing that can be directly produced from using PR in combination with ArmA2, the missions, is regulated by the EULA. Also there are plenty of mods that alter the way ArmA2 works, including removing features for whatever reason (like realism), so those mods are restricting general abilities of the original product as well, that's the nature of a mod(ification).

OK the EULA is strict and in the context of the ArmA community unprecedented. Its offending some of the open-source crowd but its not illegal. As has been suggested before in this very thread. If you dont like it vote with your (virtual) feet and and walk away.

So I really dont see what all the fuss is about.

So this is all about missions, which differ from PR's gamemodes. Mod against free creation :) And users will can't create servers with PR mod and play on those servers with missions, which differs from original PR's gamemodes, with thier friends? Just because mod team deside that this is right way only? That about it this "fuss".

If you dont like it vote with your (virtual) feet and and walk away.

"Use this style or leave" :D If someone say to you "Jump out in window" you will jump? :)

Food for thought: If PR mod aimed on PvP, then what the talking about only singleplayer editing for personal use?

Edited August 27, 2011 by DAP

[rksl-rock 1301]

So this is all about missions, which differ from PR's gamemodes. Mod against free creation :) And users will can't create servers with PR mod and play on those servers with missions, which differs from original PR's gamemodes, with thier friends? Just because mod team deside that this is right way only? That about it this "fuss".

Well I dont speak for PR. Apart form the odd chat with UK Force I have no contact with the PR:A team so I cant respond with anything but, just like you, a guess at their motivations. So my best guess is:

1. They dont want all the hassle of trying to make PR compatible with every other mod, addon and script system out there.
   
2. They are only interested in supporting their own game modes and mod pack. Trying to support every addon out there is nigh on impossble - and in this community - a thankless task. Quite a few mod teams will tell you that its virtually impossible to keep up with the changes made and limits imposed by other non-aligned addons.
   
3. As with addons, they want the missions to work as they intended. They dont want to have to support/deal with a whole host of unauthorised ports, conversion, mashups and new missions. BUT if you do want to add something they have already said you are free to submit it for consideration in the next upgrade. Not so unreasonable imo.
   
4. Protecting their brand. Now this is very much a guess on my part but its logical.(at least in my mind) PR has a very large following and a "brand" in its own right. In BF2 they had a reputation for well crafted, game modes, team-coop PVP games. Allowing every Tom, Dick and Alphonse to make and release "non-PR:A" sanctioned/poorly tested missions *might* be seen as damaging to the 'brand'. Purely a guess on my part but given PR's long term commercial game dev (they are writing their own game engine) plans it would be logical to want to protect their rep.
   

While I honestly think the current PR EULA might not be the best way to approach the ArmA2 community, I don't see anything illegal or immoral in what they are doing. After 10 years in this community I understand why they want to do this. And If i'm honest I think the opposition to it is just people not really understanding what is really going on or thinking it all through before posting.

AGAIN, let me repeat that i have no involvement with PR. I don't have any inside knowledge but I think people need to calm down and take another look at the EULA, look at the mechanics of supporting any large mod and think it over for a while.

"Use this style or leave" :D If someone say to you "Jump out in window" you will jump? :)

Well it is a choice isn't it.

No one is forcing PR on you. You can choose to use or not. now if you do choose to use it you have to agree to those terms. If you don't like those terms you have a choice. Agree or Disagree. Take it or Leave it. Jump or Don't Jump. No one is pushing you.

Now if your particular circumstances (eg a LAN party) don't fit into the license conditions just ask the PR team about it. They aren't (all?) horrible power mad dictators. Maybe just maybe they will make you a concession.

---------- Post added at 19:59 ---------- Previous post was at 19:54 ----------

...

Food for thought: If PR mod aimed on PvP, then what the talking about only singleplayer editing for personal use?

In the context of the original post we arent. We're talking about the use or EULAs in this community.

In the context or PR:A. Why not ask the team directly. Anything anyone outside of the PR team says about their motivation here is just pure BS speculation. And not worth the time to read. If people asked polite, serious questions before exploding into rants we might have a much nicer forums to lurk in.

Edited August 27, 2011 by RKSL-Rock

[SPC.Spets 21]

is completely clear for me about the PR EULA, I dont understand the nonsense rant. Anyway, we are going to play PR in closed servers not in a pub full of idiots rambo wannabe style cheaters and more

and yes PR = TvT and PvP

ACE2 Coop and TvT

[ProfTournesol 956]

I agree with RKSL_rock and JdB. All these speculations about PR mod are just pathetic, i'm feeling sad for them, they are trying to make something new and valuable for the MP/PvP community and it only leads to this BS. Time has really changed here.

[rksl-rock 1301]

... Anyway, we are going to play PR in closed servers not in a pub full of idiots rambo wannabe style cheaters and more

...

Thats a shame. Again, speculation on my part but it seems that PR's EULA is geared towards making public server games more accessible. Now with the right server setup with all the security features enabled it shouldn't be any different than BF2 public servers ;)

[DAP 619]

1. They dont want all the hassle of trying to make PR compatible with every other mod, addon and script system out there.
   
2. They are only interested in supporting their own game modes and mod pack. Trying to support every addon out there is nigh on impossble - and in this community - a thankless task. Quite a few mod teams will tell you that its virtually impossible to keep up with the changes made and limits imposed by other non-aligned addons.
   
3. As with addons, they want the missions to work as they intended. They dont want to have to support/deal with a whole host of unauthorised ports, conversion, mashups and new missions. BUT if you do want to add something they have already said you are free to submit it for consideration in the next upgrade. Not so unreasonable imo.
   
4. Protecting their brand. Now this is very much a guess on my part but its logical.(at least in my mind) PR has a very large following and a "brand" in its own right. In BF2 they had a reputation for well crafted, game modes, team-coop PVP games. Allowing every Tom, Dick and Alphonse to make and release "non-PR:A" sanctioned/poorly tested missions *might* be seen as damaging to the 'brand'. Purely a guess on my part but given PR's long term commercial game dev (they are writing their own game engine) plans it would be logical to want to protect their rep.
   

I can agree only with 4. Other points is no sense. But anyway.. if you want "clear" PR server then:

1. Create your own OFFICIAL server(servers) with "pure" PR and give his coordinates to all. (maybe with mod release).

2. Signatures is your best friend. Use only PR addons on this server.

3. Use only "stock" PR missions on your server.

Where is the problem? Normal server(servers) with one mod. Nothing special. Play there if you want "great teamwork and realistic playstyle". But why restrict for other peoples with different visions do same thing? Why ACE mod have no any problem with this? All plays and all happy. As they want. Is this something strange or unimaginable. This is not BF2. Here you can download mission right from server right after connection. Here you can set restrictions for "other" addons. Here is no any problem. Is this so hard for imagination? Or it can harm someone? No one says about ripping or changing mod itself. But about free play with this mod.

As I see we looks at this problem from different points :) I think if you do something for community, then let community use this free and don't try impose to community how use it. Because you do it for them, not for yourself :) Otherwise just leave this for yourself :) And EULA for your work - worst what can happens.

[draakon 11]

Great point of view :D Very revealing :D So I can say: Take your hands off from ARMA :D Go find another engine for PR :D

http://www.allmystery.de/i/tQIppOr_NOT-SURE-IF-TROLL-OR-JUST-VERY-STUPID.jpg

I never said EULA are worthless. Yes they are a binding contract in a lot of cases, though in the US the extent of their conditions is wildly contested and depending on the court (where you are in the country, who is on the jury that case, who is the judge that case, etc) the results can differ substantially.

Well, thank god for international laws. Also, international courts.

My point is, and I am pretty sure that every court in the US would agree with me on this if it ever was taken to trial, is that PR can not restrict you from using another piece of software that they have no legal ownership or right to enter into contract with you. So as long as no one touches PR's code or models then anyone can continue to use ArmA2 in exactly the way they always have. PR has no legal basis to establish new clauses to the EULA that you are already in agreement with BIS. It is as simple as that. So no, I do not have to do what PRs EULA says if the basis for their conditions is to violate my previously established and unrelated contractual agreement with BIS.

So, you think that PR does not allow you use Arma Editor? Wrong.

According to UK_Force and EULA, you are allowed to use Editor. What is not allowed is for servers to use missions that haven't given a green light by the PR devs.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Foxhound
picture over 100kb

[rksl-rock 1301]

I can agree only with 4. Other points is no sense.

If none of that makes any sense to you then I'd suggest you are missing some relevant experience necessary to make informed comments on apsects of this discussion.

Compatibility and version issues are some of the most significant issues affecting open public server use in this game franchise.

But anyway.. if you want "clear" PR server then:

1. Create your own OFFICIAL server(servers) with "pure" PR and give his coordinates to all. (maybe with mod release).

2. Signatures is your best friend. Use only PR addons on this server.

3. Use only "stock" PR missions on your server.

Where is the problem? Normal server(servers) with one mod. Nothing special. Play there if you want "great teamwork and realistic playstyle".

And what in that "suggestion" is different than what PR intends?

But why restrict for other peoples with different visions do same thing?

Because its thier product and they don't want ot deal with the effects or "your vision" impacting on their product?

Why ACE mod have no any problem with this? All plays and all happy. As they want. Is this something strange or unimaginable.

Possibly because is is intended to be an open platform for people to create content and PR:A is not.

...This is not BF2. Here you can download mission right from server right after connection. Here you can set restrictions for "other" addons. Here is no any problem. Is this so hard for imagination? Or it can harm someone? No one says about ripping or changing mod itself. But about free play with this mod.

Ask ACE or any other mod team about 3rd party addons and user made content affecting game stability, scripting, game balance etc. Ask some mission makers about unauthorised edits of their missions where someone has added something for themselves and then passed it around. The original author gets blamed for these flaws when in fact they were introduced by the un-authorised editor. These "personal edits" can cause huge support issues, server problems, performance issues and it pisses off the original authors. And it can all be avoided by asking the authors to change/add/delete something. After all its only good manners.

As I see we looks at this problem from different points :) I think if you do something for community, then let community use this free and don't try impose to community how use it. Because you do it for them, not for yourself :) That you own opinion. And frankly it sounds like a poorly disguised version of "once I download it I want to do whatever I like with it."

You seem to be under the impression that these we addon makers are making mods just for your enjoyment. When I think if you ask nearly 100% of addon makers make stuff for themselves and just like to share. If you cannot respect the terms of that sharing then dont download it.

Otherwise just leave this for yourself :) And EULA for your work - worst what can happens.

LMAO, that the same attitude you just tried to condemn as stupid earlier. Are you going to jump out of the window too?

Now we know you are just trolling

[DAP 619]

@RKSL-Rock Sorry, pal, but speak with you is same that knocking in wall. You are right and all other - wrong. So no sense to continue. This is no discussion anymore. And you have no idea about respect to your opponent. "Only angry fanboys and stupid idiots".

P.S. before say "troll" look at the mirror.

Edited August 27, 2011 by DAP

[Spartan 163 0]

Can someone help me? I keep clicking on this topic about the Arma comunity and Eulas but keep getting redirected to Project Reality thread. Does anyone else have this problem?

[dmarkwick 261]

Can someone help me? I keep clicking on this topic about the Arma comunity and Eulas but keep getting redirected to Project Reality thread. Does anyone else have this problem?

LOL, me too :D have the same problem in ArmA3 forums,where I seem to be redirected to endless polls about 3rd person... ;)

[celery 8]

is completely clear for me about the PR EULA, I dont understand the nonsense rant. Anyway, we are going to play PR in closed servers not in a pub full of idiots rambo wannabe style cheaters and more

and yes PR = TvT and PvP

ACE2 Coop and TvT

What is the difference between TvT and PvP?

[Spartan 163 0]

Ok so this has gone way off topic and is turning into flame/troll land. I vote for topic lock as nothing informative or useful is going on.

/vote topiclock

[ProfTournesol 956]

Ok so this has gone way off topic and is turning into flame/troll land. I vote for topic lock as nothing informative or useful is going on.

/vote topiclock

+1 and ten chars

[DAP 619]

/vote topiclock :D

Edited August 28, 2011 by DAP

[rksl-rock 1301]

@RKSL-Rock Sorry, pal, but speak with you is same that knocking in wall. You are right and all other - wrong. So no sense to continue. This is no discussion anymore. And you have no idea about respect to your opponent. "Only angry fanboys and stupid idiots".

P.S. before say "troll" look at the mirror.

LMAO.

I'm guessing that English isnt your first language. And I'm not trying to be rude saying that. But lets be honest your 'arguments' so far havent really made any sense. They are as one sided as you seem to be acussing me of. And you seem to want to ignore most of the actual issues in the debate focusing on but hey, everyone is entitiled to their own opinion even if the facts disprove it.

Have fun. ;)

[dunedain 48]

P.S. before say "troll"

Well you said it ... I reckon NouberNou and Celery are way better at that little game than you though. :icon_eek: