Development Blog & Reveals

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

What about this:

1-9 to select equipment right? Then for example if 5 is the hand grenade button, repeatedly pressing it would cycle grenades (frag, smoke, gas, etc). What do you guys think?

Oh yes, you'd cycle through different grenades types. All types of mines could be set for 6, binocs/LD/rangefinder 7 or number key 3. I confess, I haven't played ArmA in almost a year and I don't remember what else is present in terms of equipment. :o

[dmarkwick 261]

What about this:

1-9 to select equipment right? Then for example if 5 is the hand grenade button, repeatedly pressing it would cycle grenades (frag, smoke, gas, etc). What do you guys think?

I would favour leaving the 1-0 keys for their current purpose, and just augment the current system with a hotkey rose GUI. So you hold down a key (whatever that key may be) and you are presented with an initial rose menu, and each choice basically dismisses the old rose & displays a new one, the "next level down". Selecting the action commits it, releasing the hotkey cancels it. And when I say rose, it could just as easily be a list, selectable by mouse.

So we still have the old command system, but we also have the option to use a new rose menu system.

[HKFlash 9]

I would favour leaving the 1-0 keys for their current purpose, and just augment the current system with a hotkey rose GUI. So you hold down a key (whatever that key may be) and you are presented with an initial rose menu, and each choice basically dismisses the old rose & displays a new one, the "next level down". Selecting the action commits it, releasing the hotkey cancels it. And when I say rose, it could just as easily be a list, selectable by mouse.

So we still have the old command system, but we also have the option to use a new rose menu system.

Fair point but I still consider the 7-0 keys to be too much out of reach for command purposes. With my solution you would probably not get past 7.

[Guess Who 10]

What about this:

1-9 to select equipment right? Then for example if 5 is the hand grenade button, repeatedly pressing it would cycle grenades (frag, smoke, gas, etc). What do you guys think?

Exactly what I would prefer.

Menu interaction with mouse in the middle of a fight is a no go, just like movement controls like lean with modifier plus mouse. I'd say keep it clean, in infantry fight mouse movement is for aiming only, nothing else. Every game trying this, like Ravenshield, sucked at this point.

[4 IN 1 0]

I personally dislike using 0-9 to select weapon given that you still have complex command to take care of. I'd rather change the action menus to be more streamline first. Another thing I dislike the most is the use of LMB(RMB in lefty case) for anything other then weapon control, not only you cross 2 different control and increase the chance of human error, more importantly it become a major breach of weapon safety.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Exactly what I would prefer.

Menu interaction with mouse in the middle of a fight is a no go

Do you use ALT during firefights?

My point exactly. Millisecond activation. Besides, why are you using the Action menu during a firefight? I don't recall Actions that are useful there: Open/Close doors? Go down ladders? HAHA. Try doing that with the scroll menu.

My point exactly.

I'd say keep it clean, in infantry fight mouse movement is for aiming only, nothing else.

I take it you don't use freelook.

Every game trying this, like Ravenshield, sucked at this point.

Provide a better alternative.

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 ----------

I personally dislike using 0-9 to select weapon given that you still have complex command to take care of.

What is the longest chain for the most unaccessible AI command at the moment: two or three directories down?

I'd rather change the action menus to be more streamline first. Another thing I dislike the most is the use of LMB(RMB in lefty case) for anything other then weapon control, not only you cross 2 different control and increase the chance of human error, more importantly it become a major breach of weapon safety.

Agreed on radial Action menu - we can test run this first, since it brings no changes to the key layout, it even frees up the scroll wheel for whatever is needed. Actions would be middle mouse button -> mouse over -> release activated, there's even minimal mouse movement required, a couple of pixels at most to trigger the change in Acton highlight.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Guess Who 10]

Well Freelook is totally different from using any menu action, isn't it? It's just a matter of letting go of one single key. And during firefights? Rarely.

Your second point: well there were many alternatives posted already which are miles ahead of any mouse action for leaning or stance modifying like using keys and modifiers only. For me it would be fine to have just one lean position only. Hight adjustment is a different matter, I give you that much. But not with the mouse involved.

To the matter of weapon selection:

HKFlash's proposition is the one that makes the most sense of all I've seen so far. It's clean, easy to remember, fast and uses only few keys. 1-primary | 2-secondary | 3-sidearm | 4-launcher | 5-grenades | 6-smokes | 7-explosives. First tap selects, second starts to cycle. Other games did that and, if I remember correctly, it worked well and felt very natural.

Action menu:

I would leave it as is with some fine tuning. Remove all unnecessary commands and use an activation key to prevent the usual contextual bollocks with objects. And, please, leave it at the side of the screen.

After all this is only my opinion.

Edit:

Just for clarification, it doesn't have to be the number keys but the basic principle of this method. You should allways be able to reassign key bindings to your liking.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Guess Who

[iratus 71]

What about putting weapon selection on the number keys and putting the command-interface at Shift+Number?

This way the command menu can still be as complex as it is and be relatively quick.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well Freelook is totally different from using any menu action, isn't it? It's just a matter of letting go of one single key. And during firefights? Rarely.

How is it different when it does the same thing, for a millisecond activation with snap-back action if released, when it disengages your ability to perform your primary function with a weapon - to point and kill? You can still WSAD in both cases.

Your second point: well there were many alternatives posted already which are miles ahead of any mouse action for leaning or stance modifying like using keys and modifiers only. For me it would be fine to have just one lean position only. Hight adjustment is a different matter, I give you that much. But not with the mouse involved.

We're talking about a radial rose menu for Actions, not lean! Lean is still E & Q keys. Reread the previous two pages, ignoring the "OMG 1-9 wepaonz = ArmA = COD" troll comment.

Under no circumstances would the key layout change with a radial Action menu, activation is still by middle mouse button.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

What about putting weapon selection on the number keys and putting the command-interface at Shift+Number?

This way the command menu can still be as complex as it is and be relatively quick.

Very good point! Shift plus number keys - a bit tedious, but doable. I'd duplicate the entire command menu in a radial format as well, giving people choice.

Also, can ArmA differentiate between the numpad and number keys? All desktop keyboards have a numpad, most laptops over 14" do as well. Although, you'd have to relocate your left hand to use it, suspending any motion, or turning in the case of the right hand.

Weapons-Command problem solved?

Or!

Bring a toggle key for command mode - once toggled, weapon selection via number keys is disabled, instead you get your current command interface/mechanics. Remember, not everyone uses advanced AI command, but everyone has to utilise weapons/gadgets.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Guess Who 10]

How is it different when it does the same thing, for a millisecond activation with snap-back action if released, when it disengages your ability to perform your primary function with a weapon - to point and kill? You can still WSAD in both cases.

While using the action menu as it is now I'm still able to point and fire. That's a fact.

We're talking about a radial rose menu for Actions, not lean! Lean is still E & Q keys. Reread the previous two pages, ignoring the "OMG 1-9 wepaonz = ArmA = COD" troll comment.

Under no circumstances would the key layout change with a radial Action menu, activation is still by middle mouse button.

Yes, and they don't work, because they block your view and while selecting any action you can't point and shoot. That's the point. And that's the point with every action involving mouse movement not being assigned to point and shoot.

And just for the record: I don't think that those "troll comments" are in any way trolling at all.

[fraczek 4]

Very good point! Shift plus number keys - a bit tedious, but doable. I'd duplicate the entire command menu in a radial format as well, giving people choice.

I like better the ACE system of using shift-number to change weapons. You can only go so far with your pinky holding shift without cramping your whole hand, so for anything over 5 key, shift-number is clunky. And you don't have more than 4 weapons anyway. Shift-1 through Shift-4 is perfectly doable quickly, while for Shift-5 through Shift-0 you have to use both hands which is bad.

Also, can ArmA differentiate between the numpad and number keys?

Sure it can, and does - number pad keys are by default used for freelook in specific directions.

[Guess Who 10]

Or!

Bring a toggle key for command mode - once toggled, weapon selection via number keys is disabled, instead you get your current command interface/mechanics. Remember, not everyone uses advanced AI command, but everyone has to utilise weapons/gadgets.

No need for a toggle. To issue commands you need to select teams or units which toggles command interface automatically. Problem solved.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

While using the action menu as it is now I'm still able to point and fire. That's a fact.

Good fact, this means everything is optimised and perfect and the interface is not clunky? That's a logical fallacy.

Yes, and they don't work, because they block your view and while selecting any action you can't point and shoot.

Reread the previous pages.

A radial Action menu would not be in the middle of the screen, it would sit in the same position the current menu does, or any other convenient spot, and it would be the size of your compass. And please, disclose what Actions do you use in ArmA while you're "point-ing and shoot-ing" at the enemy at the same time?

And just for the record: I don't think that those "troll comments" are in any way trolling at all.

This is not a troll comment after a fruitful discussion?

ArmA is not the kind of game where you hit 4 to switch to your rocket launcher so that you can rocket jump over a n00b then hit 3 while in midair to drop grenades on the guy then 5 to switch to your knife while landing behind him to stab him in the back for the "Knife Dudes" achievement then hit 1 to get your gun ready again. I don't want to play a game that "streamlined" please. There's plenty of CoDs and BFs and whatever else for that kind of gameplay.

Middle mouse + drag is a painful movement and takes your gun sights off target. Bad idea for needing to interact with everything...

All these suggestions sound and feel like everyone wants to play Battlefield or something arcadey. It's kinda disappointing.

I think you're being a troll yourself, Guess Who, or at least you're misunderstanding the issue at hand.

---------- Post added at 10:49 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------

No need for a toggle. To issue commands you need to select teams or units which toggles command interface automatically. Problem solved.

Another good solution to Weapons-Command problem. I'm starting to regain faith in you, Guess Who. :) In fact, this is the best solution to date: I don't remember ever using the number keys without F1-F12 unit selection involved, apart from arty strikes and misc stuff.

BIS, are you listening? :o

[Guess Who 10]

Good fact, this means everything is optimised and perfect and the interface is not clunky? That's a logical fallacy.

Reread the previous pages.

A radial Action menu would not be in the middle of the screen, it would sit in the same position the current menu does and it would be the size of your compass. And please, disclose what Actions do you use in ArmA while you're "point-ing and shoot-ing" at the enemy at the same time?

This is not a troll comment after a fruitful discussion?

I think you're being a troll yourself, Guess Who, or at least you're misunderstanding the issue at hand.

So what's the point of using a rose menu? Takes up to much space ...

No need to re read anything. I understand the matter at hand perfectly fine. You're just unable to accept different opinions than yours.

And don't patronize me, post counts don't scare me. End of discussion for me.

[dmarkwick 261]

While using the action menu as it is now I'm still able to point and fire. That's a fact.

Yes, and they don't work, because they block your view and while selecting any action you can't point and shoot. That's the point. And that's the point with every action involving mouse movement not being assigned to point and shoot.

It's worth reiterating the point that a rose GUI would augment not replace any current control system. As such, your particular gaming style would be completely unaffected.

---------- Post added at 10:57 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

Taken from Sakura Chan's WIP thread:

One thing I've found from using this daily for a while: It is so much easier to use AI. Not just "oh I can issue commands faster" but it actually made more complex combat possible. Working with a basic four man squad in open terrain is, for lack of a better term, beautiful. I've played missions designed for small high command operations using only a basic squad. You're moving, changing your squad's stance, lining up shots, moving your AT soldier into that perfect spot and then drawing fire. You don't have to fiddle with the dang scroll wheel. The AI behave. They don't die from secret hidden enemies (actually standing in plain sight) because they marched off on their own. I found myself using tactics and commands that I never would before, simply because it was so simple to do so. I've been playing the ofp\arma series for a long time, and lots of my most memorable combat moments have come from using this mod.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

So what's the point of using a rose menu? Takes up to much space ...

No need to re read anything. I understand the matter at hand perfectly fine. You're just unable to accept different opinions than yours.

Running out of arguments against the radial-rose menu? It won't be different in size to the current scroll menu, or your vanilla compass - how does it take up space?

You can't make an argument in favour of a 1-dimensional scroll list, when 2D solution is present with TWO less keys needed.

Only 1 key to operate the menu - isn't that a charm?

And don't patronize me, post counts don't scare me. End of discussion for me.

I apologise, didn't mean to sound condescending - heated discussion that is all. :)

P.S. Please do tell which Actions you use during firing. Thanks.

[Guess Who 10]

Running out of arguments against the radial-rose menu? It won't be different in size to the current scroll menu, or your vanilla compass - how does it take up space?

You can't make an argument in favour of a 1-dimensional scroll list, when 2D solution is present with TWO less keys needed.

Only 1 key to operate the menu - isn't that a charm?

I apologise, didn't mean to sound condescending - heated discussion that is all. :)

Not running out of arguments ... :) I just don't see the point. And I won't force anything on anyone else than me.

I have played "rose" menus in different games over the last 25 years or so. My experience is they just don't bring any value to the table. I hardly use any menu in ArmA at all; fastest and most precize method is still "~ 7 2". But I know this is not anybody's everybody's cup tea.

No hard feelings. :)

Edited August 24, 2012 by Guess Who

[Mr Butlertron 10]

Can't people shift control scheme discussions to a new thread for those of use browsing this in hopes of news dev news.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Not running out of arguments ... :) I just don't see the point. And I won't force anything on anyone else than me.

I have played "rose" menus in different games over the last 25 years or so. My experience is they just don't bring any value to the table. I hardly use any menu in ArmA at all; fastest and most precize method is still "~ 7 2". But I know this is not anybody's cup tea.

7-2 is command menu territory, we're talking about Actions! If you hardly use any menu in ArmA, then why all the irrational fuss about not being able to "Set up fire" and kill your enemy at the same time?

Rose menu speeds up any Action activation, not to mention reducing the number of steps to get there.

[liquidpinky 11]

It wouldn't matter if the rose was cental in the screen, if A3 has as much HUD customisation as ToH you will be able to move it anywhere, make it any colour and adjust the transparency to suit your own taste.

Same with all the HUD elements.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It wouldn't matter if the rose was cental in the screen, if A3 has as much HUD customisation as ToH you will be able to move it anywhere, make it any colour and adjust the transparency to suit your own taste.

Same with all the HUD elements.

Precisely.

Aaand I think we have found a solution to Weapons-Command thanks to Guess Who: slave the command menu context of the number keys to F1-F12 unit selection. With no unit selected, 0-9 number keys disable commands and are used as weapon/gadget selection by default.

Would this be technically possible? :o

[maddogx 13]

Technically, almost anything is possible. It really depends on how much work BIS are willing to put into changing the system.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I think it's the most eloquent solution to Weps-Command problem and it doesn't employ radial menu for commands, which would be a bit unwieldy because of the number of sub-sections/directories. No key bindings would change, apart from the automatic function toggle of the 0-9 number keys, upon selecting a unit.

[Guess Who 10]

In the end we all want the same thing I guess: we all have a strong feeling about how "our" ArmA should work. And that's ok. And I think we all can agree that the weapon selection in Arma II is the most troublesome part in the whole control scheme and should be the first thing to be enhanced. The discrete key for primary, secondary, sidearm, ... is imho the most intuitive, fast and easy thing. But you cannot emulate it in ArmA II, it has to be coded into the interface. That's why it is important to discuss it now.

[HKFlash 9]

Weapon selection AND squad command must both be intuitive and fast. As of ARMA II and the ARMA III current build, I fail to see any progress in this area. And taking a look at our discussion that's not a surprise since making both this actions simultaneously more accessible is no easy task.