Community Feedback Thread - TOH:CP

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Jupp, working. Thanks.

[PELHAM 10]

Build 83836:

All working OK for me. I like the new HUD and GPS. The user preference for the HUD layout is excellent!

My gripes are:

#1 the complexity of setting up the controller - hope you are working on a thorough explanation of all that lol.

#2 autorotations, it's still digging in and nosing over when you land hard. It should slide forward on the skids.

Here are my settings for the Microsoft Sidewinder Precision 2

The full sensitivity for the pedals is essential - it's weak for some reason on this stick.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Microsoft Stick Btn. #1: Use selected Action

Microsoft Stick Btn. #2: Manual trim set

Microsoft Stick Btn. #3: Starter #1 hold/release

Microsoft Stick Btn. #4: Auto-hover on

Microsoft Stick Btn. #5: Throttle #1 decrease (for practicing autorotations - hit x2 for throttle closed)

Microsoft Stick Btn. #6: Next

Microsoft Stick Btn. #7: Previous

Microsoft Stick Btn. #8: Manaul trim release

The 4 buttons infront of the throttle are in a quadrilateral like this,

odd so you have to remap them for each game??!:

7 6

8 5

Edited August 23, 2011 by PELHAM

[ricnunes 0]

My impressions with Take on Helicopters (build 83836):

The flight model looks considerably better than previous versions but I have the following to report:

- Very odd behaviour when flying at higher speeds (with the "MD500") and with the Cyclic down and after when I "press" the left pedal the helicopter sometimes does a very odd nose up manouver almost doing a looping!

- The left and right Cyclic controls should be much more sensitive and have much more authority, specially considering that were are talking about the light "MD500" helicopter.

- Finally, the TrackIR works very oddly since It's possible to "stick the head" thru the helicopter canopy glass and thru the instrument panel!

[PELHAM 10]

- Very odd behaviour when flying at higher speeds (with the "MD500") and with the Cyclic down and after when I "press" the left pedal the helicopter sometimes does a very odd nose up manouver almost doing a looping!

Check your controller customisation?

It was doing that to me and I reduced the sensitivity and dead zones - it's ok now with the settings shown in my above post.

EDIT: I have reduced my dead zones even further to just a few mm and it is even more stable. Larger dead zones seem to cause some sort of feedback and the aircraft seems to have a mind of it's own lol.

Edited August 27, 2011 by PELHAM

[liquidpinky 11]

The custom positioning of HUD elements is working a treat now on NVIDIA surround triple monitor set up. :)

[metalcraze 290]

But you still can't move separate gauges?

[b101_uk 10]

.............on NVIDIA surround triple monitor set up. :)

Flash git ;)

[sbsmac 0]

Have been playing 84010 after a couple of weeks off. The flight model seems to have been a given a few more refinements and I notice that the damage model has also been tweaked - I notice the helicopter shakes quite violently during flight after damaging it in a rough landing. Engine startup sound is improved as well and it's good to see the 'no UI' suggestion make it into expert mode. :)

A few issues..

* When playing the example mission on expert, the waypoints and mission-related UI aren't visible (not sure if this is intentional?)

* The transition from engine startup (using "engine-on debug") to engine-on sounds seems to have a bit of a volume mismatch. Ie, engine-startup is much louder than engine-on.

* External sounds are not correctly handled. For example, I can easily hear a motorbike running even when I'm hovering right next to it.

* There's no sound or visual effect when skids are scraping on the ground though given the point above, I'm not sure whether skids scraping on tarmac should even be audible from inside the heli?

Anyway, keep up the good work :)

[ricnunes 0]

Check your controller customisation?

It was doing that to me and I reduced the sensitivity and dead zones - it's ok now with the settings shown in my above post.

EDIT: I have reduced my dead zones even further to just a few mm and it is even more stable. Larger dead zones seem to cause some sort of feedback and the aircraft seems to have a mind of it's own lol.

Which is IMO even more "fishy"! Dead zone setting (no matter what) should NEVER make the helicopter do such kind of odd manouvering. I do agree with you that sometimes the helicopter seems to have "mind of it's own" which of course is also wrong.

BTW, I have the dead zone by default if I'm not mistaken.

[OMAC 254]

I would call the “HUD†the formerly green then white heading scale, radio altimeter (high above AGL) and the speed (normally grouped around the top centre edge of the screen) also perhaps the visual indicator for the collective application (top left edge of the screen), none of the above work or they have defaulted to “off†between this and the last iteration of the TKoH CP with seemingly no key combination to turn them on/off (regardless of difficulty setting.)

Using beta 84010 on Veteran, I also cannot see any of the above HUD elements that used to be visible on Veteran. Is this intentional?

I've already commented about my opinions regarding HUD changes with difficulty settings, but I will reiterate them here:

1) Expert should (and now does) have no hud info at all, but Veteran should have the above reduced hud elements, as it did before. Why not have all this info toggle-able (r^H), just as the analog gauges are on Regular?

2) On Veteran, I liked the in-game readout of the flight ceiling and min speed the way it was before (red/green lettering was awesome - perfectly done). Now, all that shows is the Fail Time.

3) Transparent map should have a toggle switch, not just "view." In kb/mouse setup, the transp. map will never be used, as about 15 fingers are needed to hold down r^M, use the mouse, and use normal WSADXC buttons with left hand. Again, I suggest

r^M - TOGGLE transp. map (as before)

r^MM - toggle gps minimap (current)

hold r^M (or some other key or key combo) while minimap is displayed - view transparent map

The transparent map was PERFECT for precision landings (e.g. Ass & Trash), but the minimap is not. The current config kills the transparent map for kb/mouse users.

Otherwise, all recent changes are fantastic - especially the hud element layout interface. Great work!

Edited September 5, 2011 by OMAC

[OMAC 254]

Beta 84444 initial testing:

1) Crash on startup if -world=empty in command line.

2) Still no hud info OF ANY KIND on Veteran. Please make Veteran hud more like A2/OA. See my previous posts.

3) flight model makes light chopper very difficult to control in flight - much like very early betas. Takes getting used to. Will test more.

-------------------

Were mouse sensitivities changed? I use kb/mouse only - did anyone test without a controller? I'll bet not. The chopper is now about 50 times harder to fly and control than last several betas. Most flying experience previously gained is now useless.

As far as I am concerned, this beta is a loser and not worth messing with. Several steps backward instead of forward. "Retreating blade stall"? Whatever.

Edited September 9, 2011 by OMAC

[royaltyinexile 175]

1) Expert should [...] Why not [...] on Regular?

A small point about difficulty - in TKOH, we only define 3 levels.

The Com Prev is slightly constrained by running in the A2OA environment, so currently, you're flying on the hardest difficulty - try stepping it down a level.

Some other interesting comments, but I'd have to disagree about the new flight model, just because it's different, doesn't mean it's worse, necessarily, rather, it's a new challenge to master, and we hope closer to the experience of flying in a 'light' helicopter.

Anecdotally, when I fly with Mouse and Keyboard, I only use mouse for Free look, using WASD for the chopper's cyclic. I find it much more controllable, personally, than with mouse.

Thanks for you feedback,

RiE

[b101_uk 10]

As far as I can see it, the flight modal is ostensibly the same with some scalier changes from “0.2†to “0.1†relating to AoA, side slip, drag, and the pitching due to AoA, which as far as I can feel makes things feel lighter (unless there have been changes to FFB centring strength) and less prone to pitching up that some people have commented on, so is now more prone to sideslip, but this also means you have to have more bank/role/nose up/down to initiate/counter movement, this also gives a significant feel to being nose down/tail up at perhaps a steeper angle and duration than perhaps you would expect, but any scalier jump from 0.2 to 0.1 is really like going from 100% to 50% i.e. halving something.

Also there is a correction of power from 650 units down to 375 units, 375HP would be correct, however I would have thought BIS being metric in almost everything else would use KW as a native unit? (though it’s easy enough to program an in-line conversion factor to get an imperial unit into a metric program) >0.735KW <0.746KW = ~1hp.

[royaltyinexile 175]

as far as I can feel makes things feel lighter (unless there have been changes to FFB centring strength) and less prone to pitching up that some people have commented on, so is now more prone to sideslip, but this also means you have to have more bank/role/nose up/down to initiate/counter movement, this also gives a significant feel to being nose down/tail up at perhaps a steeper angle and duration than perhaps you would expect

That is an excellent summary of the changes made to this iteration of the flight model!

Be aware however that some changes to the dynamics cannot be deduced from the XML alone (which you have access to), but also are determined in exe (such as the retreating blade stall effect).

Thanks for your continued feedback!

RiE

[b101_uk 10]

RiE:

noting what you say about the XML vs. exe

Looking threw the “Light-GenHeli600-DesktopSim.xml†file there are some values (LiftDueToAoA, SideForceDueToSideslip, DragDueToAoA, PitchingMomentDueToAoA, YawingMomentDueToSideslip) which use numbers from -180 to +180 (degrees?) with “0†forming there mid point, am right that these numbers are describing a circle the blade would make where -180 & +180 is the point that circle is completed/restarts at 6oclock wile “0†is at 12oclock?

If so, I see there are some errors where the start and end value are NOT the same nor there preceding points close so even if one of the “180†values was dropped it leads to a “jump†in figures from the end of the circle to the start of the circle.

Also “LiftDueToAoA†has an erroneous value at “30.0000†i.e.

18.0000 0.1843

20.0000 0.1907

30.0000 -0.0001

40.0000 0.4658

50.0000 0.9087

Which is really causing the 30.0000 point to describe ~ (tide) like bump/blip out of place with preceding or following numbers even if I have got it wrong and values from -180 to +180 describe forwards and backwards speed rather than the left/right semi-circle of a blade rotation.

[blu3sman 11]

Those values describe angle of attack on each blade or whole rotor disc or whatever.

[b101_uk 10]

Those values describe angle of attack on each blade or whole rotor disc or whatever.

I realise they are describing AoA, drag’s etc, my question was more one of how they describe blade movement i.e. if -180 to 0 describes the advancing blade from 6oclock (PM) to 12oclock (anticlockwise) and 0 to +180 is the retreating blade from 12oclock to 6oclock (AM)(anticlockwise) which is how I perceive it rather than being speed related i.e. +180kts, -180kts.

Because if they are describing a circle then the +180 & -180 number MUST be the same as they are describing the exact same point of the blades position/angle/drag/AoA/etc and the following/preceding numbers (-170/+170) have got to be reasonably similar with no big jump between them, like there are on some but not on others.

[Col. 10]

Can we try out that Big City map too? (:

This one:

:D

Edited September 9, 2011 by Col.

[maddogx 13]

Can we try out that Big City map too? (:

Yes, of course. They're basically planning to give away the whole game for free just before the release. I hear the copy protection is based on the "honor system", and the EULA contains some very harsh language as a deterrent for people thinking of stealing the content.

...

:D

[OMAC 254]

A small point about difficulty - in TKOH, we only define 3 levels.

The Com Prev is slightly constrained by running in the A2OA environment, so currently, you're flying on the hardest difficulty - try stepping it down a level.

Oh! I wish I had known that - that explains A LOT. Thanks for the info!

-----------------------------------

Ok. I've replayed the preview about 5 times, and have completely revised my earlier opinion, which had been made early in the morning after only one cup of coffee.

I have learned long ago that BIS devs are rarely wrong. This continues to be true. The new flight model is BETTER than before. More realistic, and requiring more frequent use of cyclic W to increase and maintain speed and pitch. The mouse cannot be used as before to effectively maintain nose up/down.

I now also see what is going on about the HUD vs. difficulty, and that how the difficulty is implemented with A2/OA will not be how ToH really will be upon release. Now, I like to play on Veteran but with full HUD info enabled. That way, I can use ^H to have the hud off most, and sometimes all, of the time, but still can see it sometimes if I want, like to get a handle on what the flight restrictions are (max alt/min speed). My brain has been configured for A2/CO, so I am used to the minimal hud info at screen top, like speed/alt/heading, and liked it. But I am now coming around to the ToH implementation, and like it even more.

Also, I have to say that the DESIGN elements of ToH are just 100% brilliant, like those cool colored icons for the operable controls. Whoever designed those should be given a raise.

Great work, BIS!!!!! :D

Edited September 10, 2011 by OMAC

[RUBIX 10]

I am glad to see that we have a new Community Preview (84444) that focuses on the flight model. I need to head to work for the weekend, so I wont be able to test it until Monday.

After a quick test when it was first released, I still have concerns over the fact that the helicopter (while sitting on the ground, rpm at 100%, and with collective fully lowered) will produce a dirt storm that shouldn't be there. Here is a video of a cobra on takeoff (I could have found better one, but I am pressed for time). You can see that the dirt wont be disturbed until lift is being produced (@ 0:30 in the video)

Jw0SCvmiDBY

@Jibemorel_Thanks for the help

Edited September 10, 2011 by RUBIX
Embedding

[jibemorel 10]

Just press the youtube function and add only this part of the link

Jw0SCvmiDBY

[EagleEye-GER- 0]

@b101_uk:

Interesting investigation of the XML file.

I was pointed to the xml file in another thread, though could not look into it yet. Would be helpful to have comments for the values in that file, right?

I´m also glad to read that the new CP have FM changes, though could not try it yet. (busy with my first flight lessons on an R22 this weekend)

Edited September 10, 2011 by EagleEye[GER]

[OMAC 254]

Anybody else getting the preview crash if -world=empty in startup command line? Consistent crash for me.

As one of a small handful of KB/mouse-only users, I sometimes get worried if BIS is paying enough attention to controller-less development. In 84444, the new flight model is great, but flight with the Freelook interaction set as "default on" is well-nigh impossible. Until now, the previews and A2 have depended on use of the mouse for attitude control, and it has been amazingly well implemented and fun to fly. Standard WASDXC controls are used to augment mouse flight control. In 84010+, one can still get most of such functionality by setting Freelook interaction to "disabled," in which case Left Alt is still used for freelook, and works perfectly. However, some mouse functionality for pitch control (nose up/down) has been lost - perhaps due to the new flight model (?) - requiring much more frequent use of cyclic up (W). That is more or less fine.

But with Freelook interaction set to "default off," the colored icons for operable instrument/stick controls are gone, and with "default on" all mouse control is for head movement, and requires sole use of keyboard controls for flight - this is a MAJOR departure from A2 and past previews, and IMO is useless for kb/mouse setup. I am a little concerned that "default on" will somehow be required for weapons use, as mentioned in the changelog, forcing a complete re-learning of how to fly with kb/mouse.

Again, I am :( about not having a way to toggle the transparent map. The control setup says "GPS" for r^M. The transparent map does not contain GPS, and should not be labelled as such.

r^m - toggle transparent map

r^mm - replace transparent map with mini-gps

[rok 0]

Anybody else getting the preview crash if -world=empty in startup command line? Consistent crash for me.

Confirmed. Had to remove -skipIntro too.