Steamworks, add it in or not?

[jblackrupert 14]

Sell on Steam: Yes - So long as Sprocket and DVD is still an option.

Even if Bohemia ditched DVD copies I could still live with Sprocket.

Achivements/Unlocks/Leaderboards: HELL NO!!! Those are the NUMBER ONE driving force behind cheaters, stat padders and their stat padding servers.

Just look at Battlefield 2, especially Special Forces, the majority of the servers are stat pad/Time servers. 8 out of 10 last time I looked.

Keeping score and Achivements will be the death of Arma, that and releasing a free version right away and no easy way for admins to deal with the griefers.

Virtually all of the public vanilla Arma 2 servers are now unplayable most of the time

because of a minority of free players causing shit and no good way for admins to keep

them out without requiring addons.

Age of the players isn't an issue for me, the motivation for playing the game is.

One of the best chopper pilots I've played with in Arma is around 13/14

The best Commander I've played with in Battlefield 2142 is 14

Neither of them give a shit about their scores, thats the difference.

[rainbird 1]

There is nothing illegal about steam and it is not a scam.

You're right, there's nothing illegal about it. After all, you are the one clicking the "I accept being scammed" button.

I do not feel scammed, i know i do not physically own a game I simply own the digital license.

No, you do not own Steam licenses. There is no such thing as ownership without the "right" to sell. You do not own games tied to Steam. You can consider it a form of long-term rental, with content delivered to you via their servers and under their conditions.

Now if you had really been paying attention, you would know where this new model which Steam currently dominates is heading. I have. Your acceptance that you do not own a game is the first step in a long term business plan in which many game companies and middle men (like Steam) hope to make a HECK of a lot more money from gamers than they ever could have dreamed of during the days of "game ownership". As Cory Ledesma / THQ says, he and many other big name game cos, are creeping towards game rental. No more ownership - period. I can dig up quotes from Cory himself stating that he wants to see games sold for $60 IN ADDITION to monthly online subscriptions - not for new content - just for the priveledge to play the game.

Articles on Gamesutra discussing the new distribution model are not discussing how it's going to solve piracy (the piracy debate is pretty much irrelevant with online gaming anyway), they're discussing how much potential there is to absolutely drain the pockets of gamers. Of course, they discuss this in a very polite way but the intention is clear.

So when you are clicking that "I accept not owning a game I have paid for button" - just consider the longterm consequences of your actions. But of course you will not.

I do not feel scammed, i know i do not physically own a game I simply own the digital license.

Since gaming first began and up until very recently (when Steam appeared), you used to own both the physical media AND the license. Now you own nothing, only a privilege granted by Steam.

Yet (disregarding their sales on old titles which nobody really wants) you are still paying the same, and in some cases more, for their games - with no box, no ownership and no right to sell. If that doesn't make you feel just a little bit scammed...well...

Edited January 30, 2012 by rainbird

[Madus_Maximus 0]

@rainbird. You don't own any software, or music, or movies, or pretty much anything in a similar vein. You're granted a license that allows you to use it in certain ways, and one way that is common with a physical copy is the right to sell it, but you must also not have any copies of it if you do so, so if you get a CD, rip it, then sell it to someone, that license stipulates you must also delete all of the copies you've made on your computer or MP3 player or whatever.

Also, you haven't really been able to sell PC games for the best part of a decade due to the simple nature of being able to make a copy then just give it back. That isn't as simple on consoles as they're often updated to counter any developments in pirated copies and they can tie the disc ID to that user account/console if they wanted.

Also on the prices. That isn't up to Steam/Valve, that's the developers/publishers who make that decision. So, complain to the developers/publishers that you're paying more for less.

[rainbird 1]

@rainbird. You don't own any software, or music, or movies, or pretty much anything in a similar vein. You're granted a license that allows you to use it in certain ways, and one way that is common with a physical copy is the right to sell it, but you must also not have any copies of it if you do so, so if you get a CD, rip it, then sell it to someone, that license stipulates you must also delete all of the copies you've made on your computer or MP3 player or whatever.

Yep, I understand that. But I think you are confusing the ideas of "ownership" and "copyright". I don't own the copyright to any of my books, CDs, games, etc. But I know for certain that I own them. I know that for the simple fact that I can sell my particular instances (original copies) any time I choose.

@rainbird.

Also, you haven't really been able to sell PC games for the best part of a decade due to the simple nature of being able to make a copy then just give it back. That isn't as simple on consoles as they're often updated to counter any developments in pirated copies and they can tie the disc ID to that user account/console if they wanted.

I don't understand this point. I have been able to sell all of my games: Megadrive, SNES, PS2, PS3, PC. No problems selling them at all. The only game I've ever been unable to sell is Napoleon Total War, which is a Steam game.

@rainbird.

Also on the prices. That isn't up to Steam/Valve, that's the developers/publishers who make that decision. So, complain to the developers/publishers that you're paying more for less.

Yep, that's true. Still remains a fact that Steam is no cheaper than buying and owning a game.

[Pulverizer 1]

If you truly had the notion that replayable media was like an admission to a show, you'd want to pay the makers in full each time you watch a movie you have on disc, or start a game that you've completed before. You know that it doesn't work that way. Through the ages, no party has had a problem with reselling and giving away used entertainment media until the distribution methods have allowed companies to restrict it.

So, do you think that it's immoral to give away books, movies, tabletop games and music CDs that have been paid for once? Why?

Yeah that was a bad analogy.

Look, it's a very hairy subject and asking me to untangle it with a single solid answer that works in every case is like asking to invent theory of relativity on the spot. It isn't going to happen.

Why I feel x or y is morally right or wrong is just the way I'm wired. I cannot back it up with generalized logical principles because that simply isn't how the brain, or the sense of morality works.

Giving away or lending is also a gray area. I guess with friends who couldn't afford it themselves is okay as long as you don't abuse the right. Or donating something to charity etc. Again, I go case by case based on what I feel, as I don't have it down to one theory that works for everything.

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 AM ----------

Why dont you extend this line of thought to, for example, cars? Why dont you feel a car manufacter has the right to be compensated n times why people (re)buy their car?

I dont really care too much about this issue since i never sell/buy 2nd hand games, but i dont really see your reasoning behind this.

You are comparing physical property where a single unit can cost 10,000+ currency units new, and that is a practical device instead of only a piece of art or entertainment, to something that can be duplicated with very low costs and sold cheap at 1-50 euro bucks a pop and doesn't really function as a tool or something practical. There is no comparison to cars.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Pulverizer

[Clarkey1 10]

HELL NO!!, NO STEAM!!, leave it optional.

For online purchases sprocket works perfectly, same as a DvD purchase.

This is good to hear. I'm getting ArmA 3 from sprocket because ArmA2 and OA are a nightmare to update on steam. And even when I update manually steam doesn't recognize it so I still have to re-download the the game.

Steam is great if you just want to play vanilla games. But I find one of the most enjoyable things about PC gaming is the modability. I can't agree that steamworks adds any incentive to playing with groups and inviting new members. The ArmA community does a good job of this on it's own. Any gaming community does this fine on it's own. Steamworks is just another way of doing the same thing people have done for years. I think you'll find most OFP/ArmA fans would prefer to have the option. In a way choice and freedom is a trademark of the series.

[[evo] dan 79]

This reminds me of the debate they had over on the BGforums about SRCW, you know what they ended up doing?

They ended up releasing the game on disk, download from gamersgate and paradox, as well as selling it on steam. Its the best of both worlds, just as long as your not forced to use steam like some games like the total wars.

[NeMeSiS 11]

You are comparing physical property where a single unit can cost 10,000+ currency units new, and that is a practical device instead of only a piece of art or entertainment, to something that can be duplicated with very low costs and sold cheap at 1-50 euro bucks a pop and doesn't really function as a tool or something practical. There is no comparison to cars.

I considered that, but we arent talking about copying. If i would sell my ArmA2 i wouldnt keep a copy, in the same way that i wouldnt keep a copy of my car/hammer/left arm/cheese if i decided to sell it.

Of course i could, but if i decided to pirate stuff i wouldnt buy it in the first place.

[celery 8]

Look, it's a very hairy subject and asking me to untangle it with a single solid answer that works in every case is like asking to invent theory of relativity on the spot. It isn't going to happen.

Why I feel x or y is morally right or wrong is just the way I'm wired. I cannot back it up with generalized logical principles because that simply isn't how the brain, or the sense of morality works.

Giving away or lending is also a gray area. I guess with friends who couldn't afford it themselves is okay as long as you don't abuse the right. Or donating something to charity etc. Again, I go case by case based on what I feel, as I don't have it down to one theory that works for everything.

In that case you are not very qualified to lobby your Steamworks utopia here, nor to imply that a consumer that sells his things is a pirate. You have no sound arguments for your notion that a person has to be stuck with whatever media he buys. I hope that you won't resurrect this tedious thread again since all you have contributed here is unreasoned statements and slander.

[krazikilla 5]

In that case you are not very qualified to lobby your Steamworks utopia here, nor to imply that a consumer that sells his things is a pirate. You have no sound arguments for your notion that a person has to be stuck with whatever media he buys. I hope that you won't resurrect this tedious thread again since all you have contributed here is unreasoned statements and slander.

I could not agree more with Celery :)

Anyway:

- Say NO to steam!

- Give NO-steam a chance

- NO might to steam

- Say NO to forced updates

- Say NO to forced internet connection

- Say NO to dependency of 3rd party servers

Edited January 30, 2012 by KrAziKilla

[Pulverizer 1]

Fine by me, Celery. I didn't suggest that Arma should use Steamworks though. I wouldn't mind it because I like Steam, but I realize many people would.

[Nicholas 5]

Say NO to forced updates

Sigh....I hate when people say that Steam "forces" updates. They do not force updates; you can turn off automatic updates for any game you wish.

[rainbird 1]

always wondered about that image. and after some of the steam-fan-boy posts in this thread...i think i get it.

every Steam customer must get a free lobotomy as "thanks" for their stupidity.

[Nicholas 5]

[imghttp://images.bit-tech.net/news_images/2009/11/valve-doesn-t-care-about-steamworks-boycott/article_img.jpg[/img]

always wondered about that image. and after some of the steam-fan-boy posts in this thread...i think i get it.

every Steam customer must get a free lobotomy as "thanks" for their stupidity.

So, you're calling Steam customers stupid?

Steam is becoming very significant part of today's PC Gaming as well as it was crucial part of the success of Arma 2 / Operation Arrowhead.

Steam sales were very important in the success of ArmA 2 and Operation Arrowhead.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Max Power
Do not quote images

[rainbird 1]

YES, I am calling you stupid. And is that quote supposed to make me melt and suddenly see Steam as the saviour of the PC gaming industry?

I am VERY glad that BIS gained a lot of sales from Steam. But Steam didn't invent digital distribution. The only thing they've invented is the idea that their customers do not own the games they purchase.

[celery 8]

rainbird, you have received 2 infraction points for insulting other members. Please try to converse in a civil manner and don't post anything if you only intend to hate on somebody.

[jblackrupert 14]

Steam doesn't force automatic updates, they're just ON by default after you install a game.

Right click on the game and you can disable automatic updates for each game.

You can also back up the patched game by doing the same thing.. right click.

It'll back up the files and create an installer that you can burn on DVD if you like.

My only issues with Steam are

- Client sucks resources on some systems regardless of power of the CPU and available RAM.

- Logging in can take forever somethimes

- Games can fail to launch requiring several reboots or reinstalling to get them to go.

I have 2 games on Steam. Red Orchestra and Race On

Race On refuses to launch 25% of the time and is sluggish on every system I've tried it on.

Steam just makes every system I've installed it on feel sluggish. Single/Duel/Quad-core's

It's been this way since day 1, some people for whatever reason never have any issues with it.

Some programs just don't get along well with certain Hardware/Software/OS installations.

Edited January 31, 2012 by jblackrupert

[rainbird 1]

Celery:

I'm not "hating" on anyone. He directly asked me if I thought he was stupid for buying Steam games. What was I supposed to do, lie and say he was clever?

and do what you wish with my account. they're cheap and disposable as you know.

[Nicholas 5]

Celery:

I'm not "hating" on anyone. He directly asked me if I thought he was stupid for buying Steam games. What was I supposed to do, lie and say he was clever?

and do what you wish with my account. they're cheap and disposable as you know.

Who said I was a Steam customer? I only said that you can disable automatic updates with Steam and asked "So, you're calling Steam customers stupid?" I didn't ask what you thought of me.

Yet, you insulted me by calling me stupid. As you can see here:

YES, I am calling you stupid.

Oh, by the way, I am a Steam customer. I have no issues with them. I'll spend my money as I see fit. You live life once so enjoy everything you can. There is no need to insult someone just because they do something that you oppose. Steam does have some great deals you know, I get all giddy when I see "Sale" on their front page!

Edited January 31, 2012 by Nicholas

[dragon01 902]

All that angry discussion, and you forget two things:

1). Steam doesn't force you to play online, offline mode works fine (I don't know why people seem to have a problem with it).

2). If you're smart, you get most of your games on Steam at 25% their normal price, and even that is lower than what you pay in store.

Steam does have it's drawbacks, but the amount of money saved using it is large enough that they shouldn't matter. Buying things on Steam at their full price is, of course, a waste of money, but you just need a little patience and you can pay a silly amount for what is otherwise quite expensive.

[Serub 1]

I was lurking for a while and registered just to post in this thread.

As a huge OF and ARMA fan I will NOT buy ARMA3 if it will force me to use 3rd party software or some other intrusive type of DRM to play it.

I have nothing against implementing it being optional for all the people who use Steam, but for me it's a huge no.

I am tired of all the bad sequels for my favorite games and all the exclusivity announcements about Steamworks that they carry. PC gaming is not something like Xbox Live, don't monopolize PC market into hands of one company.

[Nicholas 5]

Steam does have it's drawbacks, but the amount of money saved using it is large enough that they shouldn't matter. Buying things on Steam at their full price is, of course, a waste of money, but you just need a little patience and you can pay a silly amount for what is otherwise quite expensive.

Correct. I have 120+ games on Steam. I believe most if not all of them were bought on sales (Except ArmA II OA and DLC). Most games that I got on Steam, I already have the disc, I just rebuy it again on Steam for the convenience.

[rainbird 1]

Who said I was a Steam customer? I only said that you can disable automatic updates with Steam and asked "So, you're calling Steam customers stupid?" I didn't ask what you thought of me.

Yet, you insulted me by calling me stupid. As you can see here:

Oh, by the way, I am a Steam customer. I have no issues with them. I'll spend my money as I see fit. You live life once so enjoy everything you can. There is no need to insult someone just because they do something that you oppose. Steam does have some great deals you know, I get all giddy when I see "Sale" on their front page!

I automatically assumed you were on the defensive because you were a Steam customer yourself and you are. I do not really have anything against Steam, only the part where they say I cannot sell my own games.

And on a related note: people in this world (particularly on the net) have a wide variation of communication styles. And there's no such thing as a "personal insult" unless the person actually knows personal information about you. All I know of you is that your forum name is Nicholas, you have an avatar with a red circle and three red balls and that you're, unfortunately, a Steam customer. Someone calling you "stupid" based on that information is just meaningless hot-air.

Try to be a little less sensitive on the internet.

[dragon01 902]

On the other hand, basic politeness still applies. Calling somebody stupid like that is rude, regardless if on the Internet or not. Especially like that, as this was about as "to his face" as you could get on the Internet. And rudeness frequently leads to off-topic posts and meaningless discussion.

You could call some behavior stupid if you absolutely must, this should be more acceptable as long as not directed at anyone specifically, but at the behavior itself.

Let's be polite from here on.

[jblackrupert 14]

1). Steam doesn't force you to play online, offline mode works fine (I don't know why people seem to have a problem with it).

Most Steam games REQUIRE the client to be running and ONLINE if you want to play MP.

Race On which I own gives me 2 install choices

1) Single player install, no steam required

2) Multiplayer install. Steam needs to be running and online [Logged in].

If i pick number 2 and choose to play a single player round against the AI I still have to have Steam running and logged in.

Even Simbins FREE RaceRoom games require Steam to be running and logged in.

Edited January 31, 2012 by jblackrupert