Steamworks, add it in or not?

[mrcash2009 0]

Yes but that's to activate or buy anything, your not tied to them with a umbilical chord day in day out like steam does, so your example isn't a good one. In fact its a poor one. Sprocket dont exclusively distribute its own updates, you can get them from anywhere mirror'd even if they were down for some time. Once you have the data its yours, only issues are intial activation.

You cant escape everything with any digital service, but you can limit the damage that Steam would cause if you had 80 games with no access to any updates anywhere else if steam vanished or had issues.

Think physical, if a shop said to you "You can buy this, but we have to be open for you to update it, you cant get any updated but from us" I bet no one would be into the idea.

Not sure if its posted but Nielsen posted this in the Skyrim thread:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/01/thought-do-we-own-our-steam-games/

Edited February 14, 2012 by mrcash2009

[Nicholas 5]

You're not making any sense and it seems as though you're just coming up with hot air.

Not sure if its posted but Nielsen posted this in the Skyrim thread:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/01/thought-do-we-own-our-steam-games/

You technically do not own any games you buy, even if they are on a disc. You are just purchasing a limited license to use the program.

2. Limited Use of License:

the Licensor hereby grants, and by installing the Program

you thereby accept, a restricted, non-exclusive license and right to install and use one

(1) copy of the Program for your personal use. You may not network the Program or

otherwise install it or use it on more than one computer at a time, except if expressly

authorized otherwise in the applicable documentation. The Program is licensed, not

sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Program.

4. License Transfer:

You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this

License to the recipient, provided that the recipient agrees to the terms of this

License and you remove the Program from your computer.

5. Termination:

This License is effective until terminated.You may terminate the

License at any time by destroying the Program and any New Material. The Licensor

may, at its discretion, terminate this License in the event that you fail to comply with

the terms and conditions contained herein. In such event, you must immediately

destroy the Program and any New Material.

Although, there is one conflict:

This computer software program, any printed materials, any on-line or electronic documentation,

and any and all copies and derivative works of such software program

and materials (the “Programâ€) are the copyrighted work. All use of the Program is

governed by the copyright law and by the terms of the End-User License

Agreement, which is provided below (“Licenseâ€). By using the Program you agree to

be legally bound by the terms of this license agreement. Any use, reproduction or

redistribution of the Program not in accordance with the terms of the License is

expressly prohibited. If you do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not

install or use the Program. You may, however, return it to your place of purchase

for a full refund.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Nicholas

[mrcash2009 0]

Your nit picking, you know the point I make, this thread says it all, that article was just a point ref not being able to do anything if your not "on" ... we could end up talking about not owning our own identity soon I can go on and on if you wanted, but its not the point. Simple, Arma3 + Steam = NO.

Its all about how much felxibilty and choice you get, Steam does not give that with the bigger picture in mind.

End.

[kylania 567]

X3: Albion Prelude is coming out soon. It's a game where even with the disc you have to activate it on Steam, however once you've done that you can uninstall Steam and play to your heart's content. Maybe that kind of system could be used for this? Personally I enjoy Steam for silly little games (like OFPDR and Ghost Sniper Whatever) but for mission critical games like ArmA2 or DCS, I want stand alone games that won't get interrupted when uninterruptable power supplies go down...

[dmarkwick 261]

You like Sprocket? I'm guessing you've never read the Sprocket Terms of Service? They are very similar to Steam, only with Steam you run their program.

Key difference being that Steam will not only lock you out of Steam, but all the games that you need Steam to play. Sprocket, while having a similar Sprocket-limiting power, won't lock you out of your purchased games. Sprocket is distribution only.

[mrcash2009 0]

Yes DM that's kind of the point that I didn't explain in a nutshell ;)

Lets face it your tied to something in all of it (hell even your O/S needs activating) ... point is the best of two evils (or more than two).

For example just looking around at complaints about Steam workshop for just Skyrim, slowdowns server issues when grabbing mods, esp when things get real busy and larger and larger mods (look at what Arma3's mods size will be). I admit mods are people power and down to modders where they distribute, but these companies offering large contracts that can "do it all and handle the data" shows that they cant all of the time, and putting all of your eggs in one basket is open to all sorts of ball ache and issues.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

X3: Albion Prelude is coming out soon. It's a game where even with the disc you have to activate it on Steam, however once you've done that you can uninstall Steam and play to your heart's content. Maybe that kind of system could be used for this? ......

But realy. Why the middle man? Your game and your purchase are perfectly secure without steam, steam dosn't improve anything, so there is no real good reason to use it (except where they have used thier power for evil and have a strangle hold on a game you want).

I'm going to go out on limb here and guess that all those supporting it are either middle men, or middle managment, ..birds of a feather,. ..and all that.

[Nicholas 5]

Key difference being that Steam will not only lock you out of Steam, but all the games that you need Steam to play. Sprocket, while having a similar Sprocket-limiting power, won't lock you out of your purchased games. Sprocket is distribution only.

Sprocket can lock you out of your games. If they shut down the service, then you would not have access to your games, would you? Unless you of course already have them downloaded and saved. But, you can also download and save your games from Steam as well.

[celery 8]

Sprocket can lock you out of your games. If they shut down the service, then you would not have access to your games, would you? Unless you of course already have them downloaded and saved.

You already answered to yourself there. If Steam decides to get nasty, you won't be able to play your installed games.

[Nicholas 5]

You already answered to yourself there. If Steam decides to get nasty, you won't be able to play your installed games.

Says who? Steam says they can shut down the service at any time they wish. But they do not say they will not allow you to download the games.

But, they are not required to do so. As stated here:

NEITHER VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, NOR THEIR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND RESULTING FROM THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT

They only have such terms to cover their asses in case someone decides to sue them. I'm almost certain Valve or GOG or Sprocket would be kind enough to allow their customers to download their purchases in the event that they terminate their services.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Nicholas

[pathetic_berserker 4]

^^ And the case where a downloaded game relies on the service to be played?

[Nicholas 5]

^^ And the case where a downloaded game relies on the service to be played?

I suppose they (The developers) could make a patch to allow games to run without the service? It's not rocket science....

[pathetic_berserker 4]

I suppose they (The developers) could make a patch to allow games to run without the service? It's not rocket science....

No its not rocket science, in fact some may argue that rocket science is simpler, but it is a completely avoidable development/cost overhead.

[Nicholas 5]

No its not rocket science, in fact some may argue that rocket science is simpler, but it is a completely avoidable development/cost overhead.

In the event that GOG, Sprocket, and Valve shut their services down, I think there'd be more important things to worry about than "OMG I just lost my whole game collection!". Live life and enjoy what you got. :)

[pathetic_berserker 4]

...... there'd be more important things to worry about than "OMG I just lost my whole game collection!". ...

NOW YOU JEST! :p:p:p:p:p:p

[metalcraze 290]

Also an important thing to remember.

With Sprocket or any other distribution service BIS uses now - you will have DRM removed from your game a few months after release due to BIS being cool about it.

With Steam you will NEVER have DRM removed. The thing is - you never know what will happen to Steam in 10 years time. Especially when it comes to Steamworks which ties into the game so deeply - it will render it utterly useless if its servers ever go down. A good example of a game rendered completely unplayable due to DRM - is Silent Storm series.

It cannot be even launched under Windows 7 because of old version of Starforce (and there's no crack that I know of). So either you install an old operating system (which people who would want to play the game today may not have) or you will never play Silent Storm again. Ever. And that was disc-only DRM.

[celery 8]

Nicholas, your defense of Steam seems to be built upon shaky foundations:

- Saying that you don't own your games as if it made arguments against draconian consumer rights policies void

- Quoting terms of service as if they made arguments for why they're bad void

- Steam is nice because other download services have similar policies that are almost but not quite as strict

- You should buy games (sorry, limited user licenses to games because you don't buy the game itself) on Steam because you shouldn't worry too much if you lose your game collection (or rather the licenses to it)

[Nicholas 5]

Nicholas, your defense of Steam seems to be built upon shaky foundations:

- Saying that you don't own your games as if it made arguments against draconian consumer rights policies void

- Quoting terms of service as if they made arguments for why they're bad void

- Steam is nice because other download services have similar policies that are almost but not quite as strict

- You should buy games (sorry, limited user licenses to games because you don't buy the game itself) on Steam because you shouldn't worry too much if you lose your game collection (or rather the licenses to it)

I voted to not use Steam. I just don't understand the hatred. Most of the hatred about "OMG they can cancel the service anytime!" can be applied to any digital content. And you don't really own the games you purchase - no matter where you purchase them. I would hope that you would know this, considering you are sporting the BIS "Developer" Avatar for some strange reason. Steam isn't really all that bad that people make it seem. Steam has made BIS plenty of money - there are millions of users everyday that are on Steam.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

I have never seen such a bias against Steam by someone sporting the BIS Developer avatar either....seems as though everyone else who actually work for BIS try to remain unbiased.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Nicholas

[pathetic_berserker 4]

^^ I think the problem is more about the lengths you have gone to over a technicality. In reality the statment that ""OMG they can cancel the service anytime!" can be applied to any digital content ", is in effect false. Only with systems like Steamworks can publishers have that level of control over the digital content, but this in turn gives power to Steam at the same time.

But in my eyes this is just a negative to steam, not the whole reason for not using it.

The reason I didn't vote to use steam is because it serves no particular benifit to BIS or its clients. Steam is a great avenue for publishers/developers who are a bit lazy about protecting thier IP and/or arranging distribution. BIS on the other hand already has this covered. So why would BIS subject itself to the potentialy negative side effects and extra development costs of incorporating Steam, or subject purchasers to Steamworks, when its not required.

[Nicholas 5]

^^ I think the problem is more about the lengths you have gone to over a technicality. In reality the statment that ""OMG they can cancel the service anytime!" can be applied to any digital content ", is in effect false.

I believe you mean "in fact". But anyways, I wasn't referring to the content, a simple grammar error on my part. I was referring to the services. For example: Steam, GOG, Sprocket, Amazon, iTunes, and Google may terminate you account or their services whenever they wish to do so without notice and are not liable for any losses.

[celery 8]

And you don't really own the games you purchase - no matter where you purchase them.

Yes, you have said that many times now, and I've already provided you with feedback regarding repeating such a meaningless thing.

"you only own the license" means nothing at all because it's obvious in any case that you're not allowed to sell burned copies of it. Stating that phrase brings nothing to the table when the matter at hand is whether a soulbinding policy sucks or not.

You don't own a physical copy in the true sense of the word (you can't treat the content of the media like it was your own work) but you can still resell it.

You don't own a digital copy in the true sense and you can't resell it.

You don't own a Steam copy in the true sense and the service can block access to the game you've installed.

See, stating the obvious has no relevance in the discussion whatsoever.

I am not a Steam hater mind you, I have some 100 games there. But I do challenge fallacious views of its supposed bliss compared to other distribution methods.

[Nicholas 5]

Yes, you have said that many times now, and I've already provided you with feedback regarding repeating such a meaningless thing.

You don't own a physical copy in the true sense of the word (you can't treat the content of the media like it was your own work) but you can still resell it.

You don't own a digital copy in the true sense and you can't resell it.

You don't own a Steam copy in the true sense and the service can block access to the game you installed.

See, stating the obvious has no relevance in the discussion whatsoever.

I'll post this again. I know you can still "sell" (Transfer of License) it.

As I have said, there is a conflict here.

This computer software program, any printed materials, any on-line or electronic documentation,

and any and all copies and derivative works of such software program

and materials (the “Programâ€) are the copyrighted work. All use of the Program is

governed by the copyright law and by the terms of the End-User License

Agreement, which is provided below (“Licenseâ€). By using the Program you agree to

be legally bound by the terms of this license agreement. Any use, reproduction or

redistribution of the Program not in accordance with the terms of the License is

expressly prohibited. If you do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not

install or use the Program. You may, however, return it to your place of purchase

for a full refund.

Funny thing, even Sprocket is not abiding by the ToS of ArmA.

4. License Transfer:

You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this

License to the recipient, provided that the recipient agrees to the terms of this

License and you remove the Program from your computer.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Nicholas

[celery 8]

For example: Steam, GOG, Sprocket, Amazon, iTunes, and Google may terminate you account or their services whenever they wish to do so without notice and are not liable for any losses.

Does that make it right in your opinion? The way you're constantly telling us what they're legally able to do and what their terms of service read, I'm assuming yes.

[b00ce 160]

I love Steam because it's incredibly convenient. I don't know why people are making such a big deal about Steam's ability to pull the plug on your account. It only happens if you do stupid shit, like gift games to people for money, that breaks the rules. If the only thing you do on steam is buy/play games and make friends, you've got nothing to worry about.

Also, I was able to play ALL of my steam games for years with no connection to the internet (Complicated story, not worth writing out). Offline mode, Valve thought of it so you'd be able to play the games you have installed without being connected to "their evil DRM servers". When the valve servers went down the worst that happened was that I couldn't access the Steam store or chat to friends. HORRIBLE, I know. However, I could play games to my heart's content.

That said, I don't think Steam works/workshop would be beneficial to the ArmA community. The infrastructure that has been set up already is perfect for what the community needs.

[Nicholas 5]

Does that make it right in your opinion? The way you're constantly telling us what they're legally able to do and what their terms of service read, I'm assuming yes.

Fuck no, it does not make it right, But everyone must abide by and respect their Terms of Service.