Stealth Kills?

[Mac 1]

Fair one man, I'm by no means saying it happens all the time I'm just saying that Mac's wrong to pursume that sentry killing isn't taught to combat arms troops just "Them". :)

And I think speculating about that if you have no background in the mob is about as much use as me speculating about astrophysics and fencing with my penis... Okay i might know something about fencing with my shlong.

@Mac Its Part of our Syllabus, I presume the ICT at Catterick has it and RM Deffo have it, now dry your eyes princess.

PS: I do apologies for mistaking you for man we used to know, but you're making yourself look like a penis by getting all teary over a forum post which you clearly don't know what your talking about.

However it doesn't change the fact that You can't speculate about what other NATO country's do as part of there combat arms syllabus unless you have either taken part in said training or had legitimate contact with somebody who knows what there talking about. And just because you think you're opinion is right doesn't mean it is, and screaming about how every one else is wrong just further reinforces why I mistook you as somebody else good sir.

And once again I am sorry If I have caused you offense :)

You're taking this way too far. Noone is getting teary eyed over anything. All I am saying is that from what I experienced there was no sentry takedown training. Sure we trained to fight with a knife, a bayonet, and had martial arts training, but I never had, nor do I know of anyone that did any advanced training on how to take out sentries. Also, as your friend PN11A has pointed out, the classes that your basic grunt gets are basic famil courses and you don't come out of those classes an expert in anything. You have tools to fall back on but you're not a ninja after.

[PN11A 2]

I'm not including "basic grunt" ALL military schools maybe except DLI . The difference between let's say 75th and 82nd is the time money and experience and latitude for change. Because 75th has priority, money, time ( which comes from less dog and pony shows) and more latitude to make spot changes it produces a better product than say the 82nd who has to contend with " you want to do what? Well we need ten risk assessments" it's like that all the way up the ladder. More things you need to justify to get funding the less time you have to train.

[cross888 10]

How would we create a fighting system for arma? I'm thinking something like heavy rain. Arma mechanics won't allow for real time. So start a module, you are allowed to target 3 vitals, once you initiate defender gets one chance to respond if he chooses the wrong button stealth kill/ kill from behind wins. If he chooses correct if goes into a fight Sequence where you basically have to land 3 In row to win...? Thoughts?

I have not got a scoobys.

I quite liked the I44s Stabby stabby! bayonet lunges simple yet effective, I think actual bayonet fighting could be really complicated to get in game especially all the animations like parrying or butt swipes.

All of the time I've seen bayonets being used in my operational experience was when we were in a more aggressive posture in the ghan, guys were being told to fix bayonets in-case of being over run or just to clear out compounds and buildings more commonly. And even then it was only being used after posting a grenade to just check that the bad bad dudes were dead.

So yeah I'm rambling on again so back to my initial point, For bayonets Something like the I44 Lunge would be nice to check dead dudes or run somebody though you surprise in a 4m contact.

As for actual "Stealth" Sentry ninja killing I don't know maybe an Animation you can use on "Sleeping or Sitting" badguy anims.

I don't know about standing enemy's that would be a complex one.

[bangtail 0]

How would we create a fighting system for arma? I'm thinking something like heavy rain. Arma mechanics won't allow for real time. So start a module, you are allowed to target 3 vitals, once you initiate defender gets one chance to respond if he chooses the wrong button stealth kill/ kill from behind wins. If he chooses correct if goes into a fight Sequence where you basically have to land 3 In row to win...? Thoughts?

Probably the best suggestion in this thread (if you were the first to suggest it, I didn't check).

Adding (properly executed) knife kills as a module (aka optional) is a great idea.

That gets rid of all the moaning about realism vs unrealism etc - if you don't want it, you simply don't include the module.

It could even be an option in the 'gameplay' section - Knife kills on/off.

Again, I would only like to see knife kills implemented in a realistic manner - not John Rambo vs Sheriff Jibba Jabba, a very young Horatio Kane, dogs, a helo and 40 National Guardsman ;)

Edited April 8, 2013 by BangTail

[rye1 21]

Rye, your stroking the fire, wether we all agree or disagree how about we figure out how instead of why? Maybe we can spark something and a talented coder can create it, then it's completely optional

There are suggestions all over this thread if you look deep enough, the "How" has been discussed in snippets recently for example. The reasons for are the exact spark needed for a coder to jump on it, an example being Bad Benson who can see the potential in a bayonet implementation -- over another kind of other non-projectile weapon. That isn't stroking fire, stating the reason why is essential. If you have none, what's the point in even contemplating formation of a system? I agree there should be more code, scripting and implementation talk to insist productive thinking.

Example:

Bayonet feature implementation in action.

That goes beyond thought and proof of concept. Convert that in regards to ARMA and you're set.

How would we create a fighting system for arma? I'm thinking something like heavy rain. Arma mechanics won't allow for real time. So start a module, you are allowed to target 3 vitals, once you initiate defender gets one chance to respond if he chooses the wrong button stealth kill/ kill from behind wins. If he chooses correct if goes into a fight Sequence where you basically have to land 3 In row to win...? Thoughts?

You're right, the mechanics aren't as fluid as needed for the kind of real-time mechanics seen in such examples as Splinter Cell and Hitman Absolution. It may have room to parallel MGO and Red Orchestra 2. The features of 'hatchets' as included in DayZ is a starting point from ARMA2-3(?). Heavy rain as exampled is simply a number of QTE's in a sequenced event. If you're saying, "Get close from behind and start a QTE sequence" then it's been argued here both for and against. I believe it has to have a strict element, I cannot see it working well in a PVP but this is without playing the exampled Heavy Rain. Who knows, it might just work.

A module is a convenient method. Would this module change dynamics such as 'reaction time', detection - 'line of sight versus non-line of sight'? What does the module specifically include? Is there even a way to produce such a module via current scripting commands and engine standards?

Are completely new models and animations needed or are their any, if at all any, available for use somewhere within the vanilla game? On speaking to a game designer and lead scripter within the ARMA community (not developers), they stated: "There is a possibility, but it's a different area. More specifically, it would be handled by an animator/artist. Then it would have to be programmed in by a (programmer) but I don't think it would implement as easily as others do. I think it would have to be programmed deep into the core code. But I'm just guessing about the programming bit" & "I am unsure whether it would work or not. It would rely heavily on the animator. He would have to animate the stab/kill sequence, animate the guy getting killed. Animate interrupt if he gets shot, a lot of rigging and animating. The models are already out, so he wouldn't have to remodel anything, but he/she would need a programmer to code all the parts together. Pretty much to start the engine for the animation. I know in ARMA 2 that people adding in their own animations and what not. But in terms of melee combat. It's hard to predict."

[PN11A 2]

There are suggestions all over this thread if you look deep enough, the "How" has been discussed in snippets recently for example. The reasons for are the exact spark needed for a coder to jump on it, an example being Bad Benson who can see the potential in a bayonet implementation -- over another kind of other non-projectile weapon. That isn't stroking fire, stating the reason why is essential. If you have none, what's the point in even contemplating formation of a system? I agree there should be more code, scripting and implementation talk to insist productive thinking.

Example:

Bayonet feature implementation in action.

That goes beyond thought and proof of concept. Convert that in regards to ARMA and you're set.

You're right, the mechanics aren't as fluid as needed for the kind of real-time mechanics seen in such examples as Splinter Cell and Hitman Absolution. It may have room to parallel MGO and Red Orchestra 2. The features of 'hatchets' as included in DayZ is a starting point from ARMA2-3(?). Heavy rain as exampled is simply a number of QTE's in a sequenced event. If you're saying, "Get close from behind and start a QTE sequence" then it's been argued here both for and against. I believe it has to have a strict element, I cannot see it working well in a PVP but this is without playing the exampled Heavy Rain. Who knows, it might just work.

A module is a convenient method. Would this module change dynamics such as 'reaction time', detection - 'line of sight versus non-line of sight'? What does the module specifically include? Is there even a way to produce such a module via current scripting commands and engine standards?

Are completely new models and animations needed or are their any, if at all any, available for use somewhere within the vanilla game? On speaking to a game designer and lead scripter within the ARMA community (not developers), they stated: "There is a possibility, but it's a different area. More specifically, it would be handled by an animator/artist. Then it would have to be programmed in by a (programmer) but I don't think it would implement as easily as others do. I think it would have to be programmed deep into the core code. But I'm just guessing about the programming bit" & "I am unsure whether it would work or not. It would rely heavily on the animator. He would have to animate the stab/kill sequence, animate the guy getting killed. Animate interrupt if he gets shot, a lot of rigging and animating. The models are already out, so he wouldn't have to remodel anything, but he/she would need a programmer to code all the parts together. Pretty much to start the engine for the animation. I know in ARMA 2 that people adding in their own animations and what not. But in terms of melee combat. It's hard to predict."

That is the reason, the only way that it will be fluid, and immersive is if it is scripting in a movie manner. It will also reduce the ability for this to be exploited. Free roam stabbing will put this more into a fps type action. It doesnt need to work in pvp, who will be a sentry in pvp ? who stands guard in PVP ?

[rye1 21]

That's true, exploiting is something you want to absolutely exclude. I was just thinking of all scenarios - is this module therefore COOP only? Is it 'stealth kill' only? I'm sure people, if it's possible, could make similar modules around that specific for specific missions even.

[cross888 10]

I'm not that worryed about PVP, I don't play it and when I have played it all the engagements we were in were at depth like 200-300m contacts.

I think it just nice to have a module or something for COOP players to be super highspeed warriors of doooom :)

[Jex 1]

Crossbow: ranged, what can you not do in a ranged position?

1- Aim effectively, even with modern day equipment, you still have to account for less velocity therefore higher bolt drop rate, wind deviation.

2- Though they make less sound than a silenced gun you still have a 'twang' when firing and 'thud' when the bolt impacts, a 'schlut' sound when the skin in broken and bodily fluids are rerouted to the wound and another louder 'thud' when they fall over.

3- Even though you're farther away you're still pretty close to be able to use a crossbow effectively, some 100-200m, and the enemy might hear your bow go off

4- Crossbows are bulky and generally ineffective in most (if not all) situations

Knife:

1- You CAN aim effectively, unless there is a struggle

2- A trained operative can easily cover a sentries mouth while slicing the throat and then lower the body to the ground

3- Yes you're close, and the enemy has a higher chance of detecting you

4- Knives are small and are already part of any soldiers equipment (mainly for survival and tool use but still sharp and big enough to cut a throat or break through ribs)

Also, who said that the sentry was standing in the middle of a field?

BASES have sentries, both stationary and patrolling, around them, usually some 40-200m away. These sentries are there at ALL TIMES, and though there might be some in towers or other defensive structures within the base itself, the outer sentries can spot things more easily, especially if the base is located in a forest or other place with a lot of cover.

These sentries are there to provide AN EARLY WARNING, and any attack forces coming in will always have to take these sentries out so they DON'T GIVE AN EARLY WARNING and therefore ruin the surprise of a surprise attack which is meant to (surprise, surprise) surprise the enemy so they aren't ready.

IF THESE SENTRIES ARE ELIMINATED, the surprise attack will work and the enemy position will be overrun. BUT these sentries must be killed SILENTLY and STEALTHILY so the camp can't tell that they're gone, how you ask?

Well, a silenced gun might to the trick, but what if you're a scout alone and there are two of them placed far apart? A silenced gun might alert the second one, or it might not.

On the other hand, if you can sneak up on the first sentry and kill him silently (covering his mouth and lowering his body to the ground) you can kill the second one without worrying about alerting anyone else, provided you do it silently of course.

What I'm trying to get at here is that I would like for there to be close combat and stealth kills, why? Because it might make a scenario like the one above more interesting (if you're playing co-op you can do the gun or try to challenge yourself and make a double stealth kill).

Hopefully you understood me this time and read it completely (neither of which I got the impression you could or did do before).

-Arcani

I understand perfectly - it's pure fantasy though and only exists in movies and books. Also there's a ton of games out there that model the movie genre of FPS's and yes they are fun but why should we have to make every game like them. Why should the devs spend time on this when they could be spending time on something else - there's 1000 more things to work on before they can add "stealth kills"

[nodunit 397]

[/color]Free roam stabbing will put this more into a fps type action. It doesnt need to work in pvp, who will be a sentry in pvp ? who stands guard in PVP ?

Not if the knife is the weakest weapon in your arsenal save for a few occasions, the only reason people free roam with knives in typical fps fashion is because the knife is a one stab one kill ordeal, if facing an opponent with a knife meant requiring to stab them several times wherein they could quickly shoot you then it renders the knife less effective.

[joseph 1]

Yeah, I've always wanted that too. And melee/knife kills system.

[rye1 21]

Not if the knife is the weakest weapon in your arsenal save for a few occasions, the only reason people free roam with knives in typical fps fashion is because the knife is a one stab one kill ordeal, if facing an opponent with a knife meant requiring to stab them several times wherein they could quickly shoot you then it renders the knife less effective.

I agree. It is after all a weapon with a base damage value and has to counter armor value. With bleeding implementation into vanilla the likelihood is to bleed out or have the potential to if it was limited damage. It still leaves the question of why. Why would I bother if it was low damage? Maybe a 'shake' or 'nudge' type factor comes into play whenever you take knife damage, meaning getting back on target leaves a fair fight - or do you want it unfair? - as could potentially be the case in reality with pushing the muzzle out of the way and controlling the opponent with the non-knife hand. Unfair to me would be: Can knife someone to death before they have time to reload or can reload casually, like normal, even though someone is attacking me - then just burst a group of rounds into them when the reload animation is over. Just a thought.

As seen in RO2 'realism servers', even when the bayonet is classed as a one-hit kill weapon, it is still uncommon of use. The suppression and fear factor has an influence on your character (or at least player perception) fighting back. You may play for hours in the close combat setting with only a few occasions of use, sometimes even none. The 'likelihood' factors of using a bolt-action weapon, which has a low clip or magazine size, and needs manual feedback from the player should surely increase chances of use, right? But not necessarily if you've ever played this game. If you threw the factor of damage values in, and reduced them, then it would become rarer on top of that and therefore preventing and limiting exploitation as mentioned by P11NA in the dynamic sense.

The whole point is implementing it to get away from 'movie' and 'FPS' like comparisons. RO2 is definitely far from movie-like in the way they have implemented bayonets. It may still be a little arcade but that sometimes comes with the territory of gaming.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Rye

[nodunit 397]

I'm afraid I am the wrong person to ask when it comes to the why due to my mindset, realism is nice but I wouldn't call it the end all be all. And I more often then not think of mod possibilities and game modes rather than how often it would pop up in the real world. For example, civlians, a knife only game mode for the hell of it or one composed of various blade and bludgeon tools (why not A3 has a mass helo dog fight) and as mentioned mods with bladed weaponry or melee in general.

Truth be told the discussion of knives for me isn't so much about stealth kills as much as having a dedicated melee feature itself, I thought of making my own thread but the discussion changed direction here and I suspect the response would be more or less the same (assuming that blade weaponry means typical fps blade weaponry)

Running out of ammo is the most prominent I can think of, not often it happens but it does happen, and you are left with no fallback plan outside of running away if there is no nearby ammo.

The idea as far as fairness goes is that the knife comes as the last resort, you're not encouraged to use it in a fight unless you absolutely must.

I'm afraid I've never played any of the Red Orchestra's.

Edited April 9, 2013 by NodUnit

[PFC Magician 10]

not to lose the thread i would like to comment, BIS can create an animation (100% effective kill) with a silenced pistol resting on the enemy head from behind as stealth kill, but also are discussing whether there should be melee,well depends if BIS make an effective stealth system (AI) and if implemented in the game's campaign, have existed wild animals in arma2 but always statics and passives, depends if BIS continue so..

Anyway..we agree that running out of ammo in ArmA2 sucks

Edited April 9, 2013 by PFC Magician

[nexventor 1]

I would hate to see a knife implemented if it was anything like the broken horrible instadeath animation in BF3. You can literally be 4 -5 metres away from someone, hit the button and instantly transport next to the person for a kill.

If it is implemented it has to be done right or left out altogether.

[Earion 1]

In Cold War Rearmed, I played the "After Montignac Mission" with COSLX and plenty of AI mods which just overhauled the enemy ability to engage you in CQC. I had the AI skills set on a really, really high level. Everytime I tried to escape the way I did in original OFP - run and return fire if you get spotted and a ruski is too close, I got tore to pieces by hand grenades and concentrated full auto AK fire. This was actually the same exciting and scary experience as in the original game, only with an incredible overhaul in authenticity and difficulty to fool the AI soldiers.

I decided not to downgrade the difficulty, and keep on trying to survive. I was able to hid in the pine trees and wait for soldiers to go past me. Every time, at least one soldier would get too close ; using COSLX knife, I was able to stab him with one or two thrusts without him returning fire, and my chances of getting out unscathed from the woods of Everon went way, way up.

I think I was using a mix of ASR, Zeus AI and SLX + TPW mods and other stuff - actually it was a customized version of COWarMod. I don't remember exactly but in my mix, the AI was supposed to react to noise, dead bodies, etc ; AI soldiers would talk (slx_shout and rug_dsai).

It was a very, very satisfying experience ! This mission has always been about "authentic ramboing" anyway, so sticking some ruskies in the bushes was just a very welcome addition. Of course, SLX melee mechanics are a bit clunky, and I would love to see an overhaul in the core engine !

Also, I never played CWR2 missions featuring our dear James Gastowsky, but hell, AFAICR, some melee kills would have been a more than welcome addition to those as well ! In OFP, the MP5SD6 was ridiculously silent, no guard would even notice me shooting ; I don't know how loud it really is IRL but it can't be as silent as a knife kill : frankly I bet the hardest part in stabbing some sentry from behind is sneaking upon him without giving him any chance, then actually sticking a knife into another human being neck, cutting through the spine, without moving and eyebrow while blood is pouring in your hands and on your fatigues... on a purely technical side however, sneaking on some dozy guy from behind at nightime isn't that hard, and I believe the fragile human neck isn't any match to a sharp and hard enough blade... Sure is messy though. But that loud, as loud as a suppressed SMG ? Sorry, can't believe it.

As a side note, during a basic training wargame, one of my mate (French Army) was sneaked upon by an officer ; he only realized it when he felt the metal blade on his throat. He told me he had the hand of the officer on his mouth and nose, but that anyway he was too scared and surprised to say anything. He's been out of the army for some time now, but I won't hesitate to ask me if he believes, that, in a real situation, the kill wouldn't have been quite silent >:}

Frankly the real question is the other way around... Could the officer had the balls to do that in an actual war situation ? Anyway...

... We're talking about a game...

[mmaruda 20]

Most probably we would not scream or wiggle at all - fear and shock play a crucial part here. The blood flow to the head is cut off due to shock and the brain has no oxygen to think clearly, when the through is cut the victim should not be able to scream and would lose consciousness quickly and bleed out or die of shock. A couple of years ago I have read a statistic that the most common type of death on duty among LA cops is a gunshot would to the foot - rookies would shoot themselves in the foot while drawing their gun and die of shock. And we are talking about a severed trachea and arteries here.

Anyway, I think we focus too much on details. Arma 3 is still a game and still has stuff that is not completely realistically modeled. Do the soldiers tire more depending on the temperature, amount of sunlight and humidity? Can we support our weapon on a chest-high wall? Can we climb a roof? Do we have to hydrate, eat and urinate? And if the situation does not permit urinating, does Arma 3 provide adult diapers in the equipment list? And if someone farts in the Humvee after eating a bowls of ultra spicy chilly, should the rest of the passengers suffer from suppression effects like blurry vision due the tears in their eyes?

So anyway, all those that fear knives will turn this into another game which I shall not name should finally get over it. First of all the PvP scene in Arma is rather small, secondly it's focused around things like Project Reality. This one comes form BF2 and I have played Project Reality for BF2 for quite some time (since it was the only good reason to get BF2 in the first place). There are knives there, you can stab somebody, but good luck with that. engagements are similar to Arma, which means 100+ meters and you mostly see muzzle flashes. So no, adding stealth kills will not ruin anyone's precious Arma 3 Elite Real Soldier experience. As for co-op, you can just not have knives in your missions or don't use them or whatever, it's your game, your mission, do whatever the hell you want - it's Arma! But some people just want to be able to play it like Commnados or Death to Spies, why not let them? It's still just a game, I think we can have a little arbitrariness here.

[Kemeros 1]

Is there a ticket in the feedback site? I'd love to up vote meelee combat. :D