Socialism in Europe

[Spokesperson 0]

As a reply to the Victory Day thread.

@Martin:

You are right but revolutions have to be defended at all costs. Socialism has to adapt to both external and internal threats to society in order to survive. I am sure that CSSR had potential to be much more, but there are constraints to the ways societies can look like that depend on the conditions present at that moment. I mean sure, there was a relative poverty in the east of historical and geographical reasons, but at least there was progress. Today citizen/workers rights are attacked from the liberals (social democrats and what not) all over Europe. Technology has progressed, meaning that everyone is "richer" today than 20 years ago, but social conditions have almost reached pre-war levels.

[-martin- 10]

As a reply to the Victory Day thread.

@Martin:

You are right but revolutions have to be defended at all costs. Socialism has to adapt to both external and internal threats to society in order to survive. I am sure that CSSR had potential to be much more, but there are constraints to the ways societies can look like that depend on the conditions present at that moment. I mean sure, there was a relative poverty in the east of historical and geographical reasons, but at least there was progress. Today citizen/workers rights are attacked from the liberals (social democrats and what not) all over Europe. Technology has progressed, meaning that everyone is "richer" today than 20 years ago, but social conditions have almost reached pre-war levels.

I agree with you, you took the words right out of my mouth. Socialism can't simply be installed, it needs to be specially tailored to the needs of the country and over time adjusted.

Socialisms economy also needs to be re-designed if it is to meet to the new developments and standards that we have today in a way which will allow new development to prosper.

I'm a big fan on science, new technology and stuff like that so I think that the most important thing that needs to be changed in socialism today is to allow anyone who has an idea or dream to be able to get the education that they need to fulfil this and then to get a job in which they could put this in to practise.

I would also allow people (such as BIS for example) to be able to set up their own buerros with government funding to develop products which if successful would be able grow and progress (we saw something similar being implemented in the Soviet military which resulted in lots of new things that were never made before).

If we removed the concurrence/greed and worrying about profits aspect out of scientific and technological development we would be left with a giant boom of new technology which would allow mankind to make faster progress then they are now together with being able to enjoy good social conditions for everyone making people richer materially and richer socially.

The biggest mistake that socialists in the CSSR made is that they allowed prospectors in to the Communist Party who were not interested in the idea of communism but only their own benefits. They then only allowed their friends and family to get in to more educated jobs while pushing out everyone from poorer families thus reinstalling the capitalist way of thinking which is one of the factors that brought the CSSR down.

[Wolfrug 0]

I think you're a very curious case, Spokesperson, a very curious case indeed. On the one hand, you're a relic of the Cold War, of a time when ideological opposition like the one you're creating (between 'socialism' and everything else) caused wars, decided foreign and internal policy and just generally ran the world. On the other, you ARE in opposition against the capitalist, liberal democrat, US-led world order that is being imposed on everything (I'm sure you've read and reacted to Fukuyama - this is basically what I'm referring to here), which is a modern enough phenomena.

My question to you is: how come you are so attached to the central tenets of Marxism as written almost 150 years ago, in a completely different world, by people that could never have envisioned what the world would look like in 2011 or what challenges the people of today would face? At least this is the feeling I'm getting from reading your various posts.

If this is all you represent - i.e. a dogmatic relic from the Cold War, then that's a little sad. Although I agree Marx is by no means outdated, nor that the ideas of communism should be discarded out of hand, this doesn't mean they aren't in need of updating, revision and reappraisal. Have you done any of this, or are you still rooting for a proletarian revolution followed by a proletarian dictatorship followed by perfect utopia (or some version thereof)?

I'm genuinely curious about this. And, if you could, maybe you could tell us a thing or two about your values? After all, nowadays politics aren't simply divided into left-right. A party can be quite left economically speaking, while still having very conservative values (say, the 'True Finns' that recently won quite a few seats in the Finnish parliamentary election). For instance your post here expresses concern about social conditions: this seems like quite a humane approach. Is that your main concern, and your leftism (heh) merely the route to a better world, or is it grounded in something else?

For my own part, just to be fair, I generally vote green or very left, and I see social democracy as the best middle way between all-out "invisible hand" capitalism and the 5-year plan lunacy of (certain brands of) communism. I also believe that sustainable values are the way forward, and that an economy based on constant and unending growth is NOT sustainable in the long run, and that the only people coming with good ideas are, indeed, the green parties and the left. However, my main concern is humans, human conditions, how we live and thrive in our own societies and as members of the globalized world: if introducing McDonald's, Starbucks and liberal democracy in Cuba makes the people there happier, I really don't think we or anyone else is in a position to argue. This is why I think the True Finns, although very left-leaning in their economical policies, is nonetheless a Bad Thing because of their stance with regards to gay marriage, abortion, the arts, traditional gender roles etc etc.

It'd be fun if we could talk about this for a moment, since, as mentioned, I am honestly curious. I think this thread is a pretty nice place to do that - we can use European socialism as an example, if you will (as I have done).

(Fukuyama: http://www.wesjones.com/eoh.htm)

(True Finns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Finns)

Regards,

Wolfrug

[Minutemen 10]

The biggest mistake that socialists in the CSSR made is that they allowed prospectors in to the Communist Party who were not interested in the idea of communism but only their own benefits. They then only allowed their friends and family to get in to more educated jobs while pushing out everyone from poorer families thus reinstalling the capitalist way of thinking which is one of the factors that brought the CSSR down.

This wasn't a "mistake", this is what happend all the time if people get in to powerfull positions. And Marxism/Socialism/Communism is just a help for tyrants come to power. Nothing else. Its a lie for usefull idiots to sacrifice themselfs and their familys and their friends and fellow humans for fucks like Mao and Pol Pot.

Ex KGB Agent Yuri Bezmenov about the soviet agenda - Interview with G.E. Griffin

And for all red kiddys out there, if you are one of these usefull stupid fucks that try to impose their crap ideology all over the planet, i swear to god i will shoot you if you try.

[Tonci87 163]

^This

[Sovietzug 0]

I'm agree with both ( Martin and spokesperson ) :d

When occidental people compare capitalism with soviets usually they forget that after wwii in europe USA needs to inject capital to Europe with marshall plan and exploitation and control 60% of planet to prevent socialism in europe. In the USSR, with only his own resources, 26,5 million of people less after the great war and only war industry they became the first to send a man to space, to create a militar country union (Warsovia pact), to help liberations movements arround the world, to support higher educational levels, to support universal sanitary coberture, to support the workers rights arround all world, etc

Of course they had so many errors too, but the Occidental capitalism vs Soviets Republics comparation is unequal.

[Beagle 684]

I'm agree with both ( Martin and spokesperson ) :d

When occidental people compare capitalism with soviets usually they forget that after wwii in europe USA needs to inject capital to Europe with marshall plan and exploitation and control 60% of planet to prevent socialism in europe. In the USSR, with only his own resources, 26,5 million of people less after the great war and only war industry they became the first to send a man to space, to create a militar country union (Warsovia pact), to help liberations movements arround the world, to support higher educational levels, to support universal sanitary coberture, to support the workers rights arround all world, etc

Of course they had so many errors too, but the Occidental capitalism vs Soviets Republics comparation is unequal.

The USA could never prevent socialism un europe. Actually we had practical socialism on industrial and commercial foundation right into the 90's when after the fall of the iron curtain a sudden trend to privatising state owned industries for some fast generated cash took place. the money was burned up fast and the quality of social standards are in a free fall now for 20 years in europe.

[Sovietzug 0]

Minutemen shoots me if is your only argument ! But not wait that i will put my another cheek.

Are you speaken with free players and you dont have any education to respect another players.

Any person impose any socialism, are the peoples who needs impose democracy to stop fascists and imperialists. Or killers as you.

Signed not a "redkidd", signed an european citizen that respect democracy and freedom (not imperialism, not fascism, not the market dictadorship and not the corruption at democracy system)

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Communism killed more people than the Nazis, yet if you were to start a thread about it, you'd probably get banned. But it's quit alright to speak about and glorify a political/economic philosophy that prevented freedom and killed anyone that had a dissenting voice?

lAxKAzpGmVA

Too Big Not to Fail: Imperial Governments from Moscow to Washington | Yuri N. Maltsev

Edited May 10, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[Beagle 684]

Communism killed more people than the Nazis, yet if you were to start a thread about it, you'd probably get banned. But it's quit alright to speak about and glorify a political/economic philosophy that prevented freedom and killed anyone that had a dissenting voice?

Karl Marx never had systematical terror in mind when he wrote down his utopistic theory...he simply had nother breed of mankind in mind that he thought of would develop with time...he was wrong in this part of the theory..in fact we go backwards straight to feudalism for two decads now.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------

Communism killed more people than the Nazis, yet if you were to start a thread about it, you'd probably get banned. But it's quit alright to speak about and glorify a political/economic philosophy that prevented freedom and killed anyone that had a dissenting voice?

Karl Marx never had systematical terror in mind when he wrote down his utopistic theory...he simply had nother breed of mankind in mind that he thought of would develop with time...he was wrong in this part of the theory..in fact we go backwards straight to feudalism for two decades now.

And it's because of this neofeudalism that sooner or later the socialistic idea will become strong again, it has already started.

[-martin- 10]

This wasn't a "mistake", this is what happend all the time if people get in to powerfull positions. And Marxism/Socialism/Communism is just a help for tyrants come to power. Nothing else. Its a lie for usefull idiots to sacrifice themselfs and their familys and their friends and fellow humans for fucks like Mao and Pol Pot.

And for all red kiddys out there, if you are one of these usefull stupid fucks that try to impose their crap ideology all over the planet, i swear to god i will shoot you if you try.

Your a angry man which has been persuaded to stand up for capitalism no matter what, because of people like you governments are able tog et away with the things that they do. I recommend that you educate your self before you post anymore hateful comments here.

The purpose of this thread is to have an intelligent discussion with hopefully some kind of result not a flame war.

I'll get back to this thread when I get home, its staring to look interesting.

Communism killed more people than the Nazis, yet if you were to start a thread about it, you'd probably get banned. But it's quit alright to speak about and glorify a political/economic philosophy that prevented freedom and killed anyone that had a dissenting voice?

Actually there never was communism, only socialism and if you wanna compare this way then capitalism killed and missuses more people the Fashims and socialism combined.

Communism is the first system which began to encourage multicultural unity and fairness for everyone.

Edited May 10, 2011 by -Martin-

[Sovietzug 0]

Communism killed more people than the Nazis, yet if you were to start a thread about it, you'd probably get banned. But it's quit alright to speak about and glorify a political/economic philosophy that prevented freedom and killed anyone that had a dissenting voice?

first point:

Verifiable data please. Propaganda reviews are not seriously data.

second point:

USSR was a socialism system to communism, not a communist system yet.

third point:

USSR remained more years that nazis, but USSR must be forced to fight against USA forces in some world places in his history. Is more seriosly compare USSR with USA. And USA killed so much more than USSR with verifiable data.

Are you including at nazi kills the fascists dictadorships includes at axis forces ( Italy, Spain, Japan, Germany, Croatia, ...) ? In my country was killed more than 1 million by this fascists.

fourth point:

Nazis killed population by race discrimination, they ( and axis forces ) killed without respect laws, human rights or thinking about happiness or development of another nations.

USA usually uses the initial attach, aggressive force, starting wars, to defend economical interesting, and USSR usually used the army forces to defend national interestings (his territory or the another socialist friendly nations). Only to attack Finland (Stalin error) and to finish the wwii attack to Berlin (revenge against nazi attack).

USA is the only country that kill civils with massive destruction weapons ( atomic bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example).

At the cold war, USSR always used the nuclear power into dimplomacy relations. When USA forces nuclear threat to limit always was USSR who retract to defend world peace.

So much sad civil wars to political control was not so bloody if OTAN, USA or European nations not had supported fascist and killers leaders with weapons and money in exchange of rights of exploitation resources.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Sovietzug

[Minutemen 10]

In the USSR, with only his own resources, 26,5 million of people less after the great war and only war industry they became the first to send a man to space,

Thats a damn lie.

Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development

The so called "capitalist" Wallstreet crooks build up the soviet union with western technology and know how. The T-34 had a ford motor and ford builded the first car manufation in the soviet union, the gorky plant.

And by the way. There was a massive emigration of u.s. citizens to the soviet union during the crisis in the 30's, and all of them got killed. All of them.

See BBC: Nightmare in the workers paradise

I can't hear this dirty lies about how great the soviet economy was when all what they had came from traitors and gangsters in the western world.

They had nothing before! Nothing! No motor engineering, no heavy manufacturing, nothing. And the suit wearing "capitalists" in the west traded with them before and during the hole cold war.

THIS GAME WAS RIGGED!!!

Your a angry man which has been persuaded to stand up for capitalism no matter what, because of people like you governments are able tog et away with the things that they do.

How dare you punk? I'am not the red sock that want to give the government the ultimate power. I talk about crimes in the government all the time. I have a gun because i know full well that governments with to much power get criminal all the time.

So keep your diarrhea by yourself and your red buddys.

Yeah, i'am a capitalist, i believe in free markets and free choice and free will and non regulatet daily life. And for the commis this makes me the devil.

I know full well what communists did all over the world in the name of the greater good and this propaganda bullshit.

Actually there never was communism,

Bombshell. If you discuss with commis, you will ever hear this.

"There was never communism." Ofcourse it was! Communism is a Lie! A new lie of the slavemasters to sell us our own slavery!

But most of these kiddys never read Marx or the Manifesto, so they don't even know what it means to "Confiscation the property of all emigrants and rebels.". Its total tyranny! And i don't wanna end up in a Gulag.

Communism is the first system which began to encourage multicultural unity and fairness for everyone.

Listen to this shit.

Point 2 of the communist manifesto: A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

And Point 3 : Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Fair in which point? That we will be all the same worthless laboreslaves? That its fair that they force everybody(Woman also) to labore? This is worst than the peonage in the medieval ages! This is total slavery!

Nazis killed population by race discrimination, they ( and axis forces ) killed without respect laws, human rights or thinking about happiness or development of another nations.

Ooo, so the Soviets/Commis are better because they killed just everyone without every race discrimination? And their show trials count as respect laws? How many they killed in the last hundret years? 150.000.000 People?

And by the way. The nationalsocialists were just another socialistic ideology. They are two sides of the same coin.

Do you guys understand now why i said, that i will shoot everyone that try to bring us all under the rule of a communist soviet?

I'am sick of kiddys, who never worked one day in their life, telling me how great communism is and we should blawblawblawblawblaw.

And ofcourse never forgett to blame the evil capitalists for everything, especialy the US that have a CENTRAL BANK since 1913. A Central Bank is one of the headstones for a communist dictatorship.

Point 5 of the Communist Manifest: Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

And because this is such a serios and sad topic, her is something to laugh about. :D

Edited May 10, 2011 by Minutemen

[froggyluv 2136]

And for all red kiddys out there, if you are one of these usefull stupid fucks that try to impose their crap ideology all over the planet, i swear to god i will shoot you if you try.

Do you guys understand now why i said, that i will shoot everyone that try to bring us all under the rule of a communist soviet?

What about the belief that our current President subscribes to certain Socialist beliefs? You gonna Rambo our Gov't?

[Sovietzug 0]

Thats a damn lie.

Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development

The so called "capitalist" Wallstreet crooks build up the soviet union with western technology and know how. The T-34 had a ford motor and ford builded the first car manufation in the soviet union, the gorky plant.

And by the way. There was a massive emigration of u.s. citizens to the soviet union during the crisis in the 30's, and all of them got killed. All of them.

See BBC: Nightmare in the workers paradise

I can't hear this dirty lies about how great the soviet economy was when all what they had came from traitors and gangsters in the western world.

They had nothing before! Nothing! No motor engineering, no heavy manufacturing, nothing. And the suit wearing "capitalists" in the west traded with them before and during the hole cold war.

THIS GAME WAS RIGGED!!!

How dare you punk? I'am not the red sock that want to give the government the ultimate power. I talk about crimes in the government all the time. I have a gun because i know full well that governments with to much power get criminal all the time.

So keep your diarrhea by yourself and your red buddys.

Yeah, i'am a capitalist, i believe in free markets and free choise and free will and non regulatet daily life. And for the commis this makes me the devil.

I know full well what communists did all over the world in the name of the greater good and this propaganda bullshit.

Bombshell. If you discuss with commis, you will ever hear this.

"There was never communism." Ofcourse it was! Communism is a Lie! A new lie of the slavemasters to sell us our own slavery!

But most of these kiddys never read Marx or the Manifesto, so they don't even know what it means to "Confiscation the property of all emigrants and rebels.". Its total tyranny! And i don't wanna end up in a Gulag.

Listen to this shit.

Point 2 of the communist manifesto: A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

And Point 3 : Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Fair in which point? That we will be all the same worthless laboreslaves? That its fair that they force everybody(Woman also) to labore? This is worst than the peonage in the medieval ages! This is total slavery!

Ooo, so the Soviets/Commis are better because they killed just everyone without every race discrimination? And their show trials count as respect laws? How many they killed in the last hundret years? 150.000.000 People?

And by the way. The nationalsocialists were just another socialistic ideology. They are two sides of the same coin.

Do you guys understand now why i said, that i will shoot everyone that try to bring us all under the rule of a communist soviet?

I'am sick of kiddys, who never worked one day in their life, telling me how great communism is and we should blawblawblawblawblaw.

And ofcourse never forgett to blame the evil capitalists for everything, especialy the US that have a CENTRAL BANK since 1913. A Central Bank is one of the headstones for a communist dictatorship.

Point 5 of the Communist Manifest: Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

And because this is such a serios and sad topic, her is something to laugh about. :D

the ignorance is infinite LoL

Ford was one of mean american firms that support nazis government and his industrial production.

But the airplanes, trucks and tanks that received USSR at WWII was a help to Soviets fighting against Nazis that was payed very well to his governments ( USA and UK mainly ) The fun of your arguee is that you dont know that the mean intention of USA and UK allies to help USSR was the more destruction between both (Nazis and Soviets).

150.000.000 !!!!!!! Hahahahahaha incredible this afirmation !

The use of state is a tool to economic control to able changues to communism society: a society without state, without class fight, without explotation between humans. This transition is a socialism way, there are diferents socialism: markets socialism, fascist socialism, corporation socialism, etc etc

The commie socialism is the democracy socialism, the state, industries, banks, etc used to support the population, controlled by popular decissions to able social changues to destroy privileges, corruption, poverty, wars, racism, ignorance.

In capitalism the mean capitalists and firms has economical plans, and uses social production, uses the states to his profit, uses the banks. But they dont want accept to have a democratic power putting limits.

Do you imagine people voting his loss house property, to pay so much years the debt of foreing firms, to pay so much money to present to irresponsible businessmen ? Why not uses the state, banks and another tools to impose the majority decissions ? Why not to make a United nations democratic with all world countries, without privileges, to impose the majority decissions ?

i need remember you the actual crisis ? ( one more to the large list ) The caothic, irresponsible and ineffective uses of our worker savings ? The capital is centraliced ( yes centralitation in capitalism ) in a few number of international firms ( and banks ) that are taking advantage thanks his planification, political influence, irresponsible decissions. Ohh the great freedom system of capitalism ! hahahahahaha

You Know that in 1916 there was a man that laughts so much with this same things ? Well hi was called Lenin, and with seriously datas wrote a great study. "Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism"

Do you Know that when in 1929's crack at USSR was not any economical crisis ? The crisis that support the fascist uprising in Europe ( with his ignorance, racism and intolerance ) under capitalism system ( only with national planification ), the USSR must to suffer the worse nazi attack ( the best nazi army and elite forces ) and USSR won.

It´s easier now in these times of crisis to accuse the other people...Like mexicans, isn´t true? It´s more difficult to know how this system works!!!!!

When exists people in peace time that supports killing another people...They are not democratic people, they are not freedom defenders, they are IGNORANTS!!!

Edited May 10, 2011 by Sovietzug

[Minutemen 10]

What about the belief that our current President subscribes to certain Socialist beliefs? You gonna Rambo our Gov't?

Thats the reason why there are 400 million guns in the US. ;)

(Iam just making fun)

But seriosly, we have the second amendment for a good reason. Thats why.

Protect ourself and our loved ones and our property from the government.

They don't gona robb me, they don't put me into a FEMA Camp or something. :q:

Oh by the Way. Imagine there would be some Swastika Avatar Nazi guys that would discuss about national socialism, what would happen? I guess they get banned realy quick but international socialism seams to be okay.

Ford was one of mean american firms that support nazis government and his industrial production.

General Motors was the Mainsupporter for the Nazis, but Wallstreet financed both partys.

150.000.000 !!!!!!! Hahahahahaha incredible this afirmation !

Oooh, look at that. He guess that genocide is so funny.

there are IGNORANCE !

And how do you guys call it if citizens denounce each other for a banana? :D

The commie socialism is the democracy socialism,

Yeah, the Mob rule. Much better if you wanna destroy the individual.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Minutemen

[froggyluv 2136]

Thats the reason why there are 400 million guns in the US

Pretty sure Europeans also have firearms.

But seriosly, we have the second amendment for a good reason. Thats why.

I don't own a gun -never felt the need to even when living in "bad" neighborhoods. If I did, I doubt it would be to protect myself from the US military as I'm pretty sure they'd outgun me. I protect myself from Gov't overreaching with a good tax attorney :p

Oh by the Way. Imagine there would be some Swastika Avatar Nazi guys that would discuss about national socialism, what would happen? I guess they get banned realy quick but international socialism seams to be okay.

Because American Nazi's, if they had it their way, would kill everyone thats not like them at the drop of a hat -thats why.

[Minutemen 10]

Because American Nazi's, if they had it their way, would kill everyone thats not like them at the drop of a hat -thats why.

The Red Khmer killed million people just because they weared glasses.

[Spokesperson 0]

My question to you is: how come you are so attached to the central tenets of Marxism as written almost 150 years ago, in a completely different world, by people that could never have envisioned what the world would look like in 2011 or what challenges the people of today would face? At least this is the feeling I'm getting from reading your various posts.

Liberalism is older than that. The mechanics of Newton somewhat older, and the pythagorean theorem a lot older. Age does not make valid theories and conclusions less relevant.

The world was different cosmetically, the technology was way behind, but all this is taken into account. Marx didn't write a theory about his age, but about all ages and the way history develops. The mechanisms are intact and will be forever. Many seem to think Marx did some kind of prophecy, but that is all wrong. Marxism is a scientific theory, just like Mechanics (Newtonism) or Darwinism, it is based on the scientific method, logics, mathematics and empirical studies. It's a valid model, and as long as there is nothing that explains things in a better way, marxism is the key tool to understanding the world socially and economically.

Marxism has nothing to do with utopia. That is a misconception. After Marx published his works scientific socialism gradually overtook utopian socialism. Marx put an end to utopianism.

The reason why you think that politics isn't about left or right anymore is that the only parties in parliament (any country) are different shades of blue even if they keep the traditional red paint. There are no leftist alternatives, apart from in a few countries, and that's because that those who control the means of production also control the means of "spiritual" production, i.e. media. There is a monopoly of information (but of course people are free to express their views - as long as they pose no threat to the current order). Alternative media is just a rain drop in the sea, and has no capital to compete (as implied by capitalism).

And as Martin says opportunism made it possible for liberals like Yeltsin or social democrats like Gorbachev to infiltrate and perform a successful counter-revolution. There has to be mechanisms that combat opportunist tendencies. The solutions up until this point have generally included purges (but they don't have to mean osama-style executions. In Cuba they dismiss people peacefully for example).

The USA could never prevent socialism un europe. Actually we had practical socialism on industrial and commercial foundation right into the 90's when after the fall of the iron curtain a sudden trend to privatising state owned industries for some fast generated cash took place. the money was burned up fast and the quality of social standards are in a free fall now for 20 years in europe.

The US was successful in preventing socialism in Europe. Both France and Italy had huge communist parties that were effectively combated. And in West Germany the communist party was banned. The Marshall Plan forced countries to fall into the US sphere of influence.

Yeah, i'am a capitalist,

So, you own factories and companies where people work for you in exchange for a salary that is lower than the products of their labor?

The Red Khmer killed million people just because they weared glasses.

The Red Khmers don't represent anybody but themselves, but you shouldn't forget that US + China assisted them (and that the US bombed millions to death in Vietnam and Cambodia, many mass graves might as well be made up of US victims). Socialist Vietnam entered Cambodia to stop the killings.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Spokesperson

[jakerod 254]

The Red Khmer killed million people just because they weared glasses.

And that sucks. What's your point? I don't think the whole "communists killed millions thing" really applies here. Just because previous communist/socialist governments killed millions doesn't mean that present or future ones will. Most the cases of that happening were clearly people trying to use communism to further their own goals of power. That doesn't have to happen.

[Minutemen 10]

What's your point? I don't think the whole "communists killed millions thing" really applies here. Just because previous communist/socialist governments killed millions doesn't mean that present or future ones will. Most the cases of that happening were clearly people trying to use communism to further their own goals of power. That doesn't have to happen.

Than go to china.

Seriosly, how naive are you? :rolleyes:

Nooo, it would be an workers paradiese, i'am sure. Its the sense of communism to bring slavery. Read that shit that marx wrote. :rolleyes:

I make you an advice. If you own a car, spend it to the socialistic redistribution for comerades like Spokesperson. I'am pretty sure you will get a LADA or an old Trabant for it.

So, you own factories and companies where people work for you in exchange for a salary that is lower than the products of their labor?

No, i don't own a factory and i don't have employees. I have my own personal goods like my know-how and my own employee. So i can bring these things to the market and trade them for money or other goods. Thats free market.

But under a socialist rule, the state means my personal employee belongs to him and slave-drive my with income taxes and dozens of regulations.

And i don't wanna discuss this anymore with poket tyrants like this red scvm over there. I have my free will and my property and my free speech and if you try to touch my junk, i will kill you. You know? I will stop your heartbeat.

No gulag for me you f***s. :jail:

By the way. Could you guys remember that Michael Kalaschnikow must spend his youth in Siberian because his father owns more than two horses? I guess he was a capitalist, a owner, a kulag in a communist point of view.

And in West Germany the communist party was banned.

The KPD was banned but came back as DKP. And they don't get banned because Germany is a socialist country. The KGB infiltrate every western government decades ago. I can remember that they infiltrate Highshools to start this 68 Student protests to undermined their society.(The germans were way higher moral persons than the americans). Later an East German intelligence spy shoot a student during an Anti-Schah demonstrations in purpose to start a violent revolution. And than this RAF thing startet. I don't know how much GLADIO was involved in the RAF, but in the end of the day they are all the same crooks.

And today these young 68 communists are back. They are in their parlament, mostly in the green party, together with their communist buddys in the left party. And don't forgett the EU Parlament.

Barroso was/is a maoist and ashcroft was the treasurer of the CND, a soviet funded anti-defence organisation. And wasn't the father of the new german defence minister also in the east german intelligence?

As more as i read about that things as more dark coulds show up over europe.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Minutemen

[Beagle 684]

Pretty sure Europeans also have firearms.

Only two multi shot Firearms per person allowed in Germany...that's to keep people from building up militias. Most of the firearms are .22 sporting rifles or pistols, nothing you go and turn over a government.

American thinking they could turn over their government with small arms is wishfull thinking also...be sure the army will be loyal to the "great leader" as long as they get payed.

[-martin- 10]

Yeah, i'am a capitalist, i believe in free markets and free choice and free will and non regulatet daily life. And for the commis this makes me the devil.

I believe in mermaids, dragons and magicians.

A free market

A free market is when labour, land, and capital are owned by private companies which compete with other companies giving the customer a vast choice of products at low prices. Sounds good so far on paper, now let's apply this to the real world which is run by human beings.

The free market in real life

Because the company supports itself from the profits that they made their number one goal is to make as much profit as they can. Hence, in order to make a lot of profit while producing lots of goods you need to cut down on quality and you need to cut down on employee wages and employee numbers thus flooding the market with cheap low quality products which break after a shot while and need to be replaced (this contributes to global warming more then you may think). This also lowers the social standard and quality of life for the employees which work in the company making them work for long hours and overloading them with work that should be done by more people but is instead done by less to save money.

A socialist market

In a socialist market companies are owned by the state, this means that they do not have to worry about profit, competition and everything else that they have to worry about in the "free market". In a socialist state everyone also has to be employed.

This means:

• There are plenty of people working in the company, removing the need to overload a single person with work that should be done by three people, resulting in higher employee satisfaction and a greater social standard for everyone as a whole.

• Since the company does not have to worry about competition and flooding their market with goods there is no need to produce goods quickly and cut down on quality resulting in higher quality goods for everyone as a whole.
  

Vast choice in a socialist market

Who says that there cant/wasn't be choice in a socialist market?

To being ask yourself this question, do you really need a vast choice of goods on the market? Do you really need 100 types of mobile phones, none of which really offer you everything that you want and the quality that you deserve but instead only copy each other? Or would you be more satisfied if there was a smaller choice to choose from but the products offered you the high quality that you deserve and all the functions that you want?

I would personally be more satisfied if I come in to a shop and instead of finding 100 types of phones which I know don’t offer me everything that I want I would find 6 genuinely different phones which offer me the quality that I deserve for my money.

A great example of this is Call of Duty, Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising, Medal of Honour and all the other similar titles, so I got choice, I got 20 cheaply made games to choose from that basically offer me the same thing, do I care that I have 20 games to choose from? NO!

What do I do? I go and get myself a copy of ArmA 2 which offers me something genuinely different and the quality that I deserve.

But under a socialist rule, the state means my personal employee belongs to him and slave-drive my with income taxes and dozens of regulations.

Do you see your employee as a slave that you can buy and own that you use the words "my personal employee"?

In socialism "your" employee doesn't belong to "him", the employee belongs to himself. This means that:

• People like you cannot overload him
  
• People like you cannot enslave him
  
• People like you cannot rip him off
  
• People like you cannot bully him
  
• People like you cannot fire him when his last drop of sweat has been squeezed out and he can no longer work.
  

If capitalism was so good, then communism would have never been thought of :smile:

[Dwarden 1125]

politics ... and like there wasn't enough threads cluttering the offtopic which was mainly meant for interesting or gaming discussion ...

time to deploy stopgap ...

feel free to discuss this on politics - socialism and similar forums ...