AA missles undetectable?

[Der_Waffen 28]

Hi... Just to start a new thread on the subject, I'm curious to know what planes are vunerable to the "invisible AA missle" I'm talking about no radar flash, or no incoming "m" on the radar screen.

I rarely play Blufor, so I know that the Stinger is always undetectable when fired at the Su-25. I've heard the same about the A-10 vs. maybe Strela or igla launchers.

Can anyone confirm what planes are vunerable to what missile systems?

I seem to be able to detect AA-pod stations and other missiles launched from choppers and planes...

[ArmAriffic 10]

I think all planes are vulnerable to all missiles systems, unlike you I rarely play OPFOR so yeah...

[max power 21]

I've never heard of 'invisible missiles'. Can you give us more context?

[celery 8]

In MP it seems that the incoming missile warning is very unreliable. Basically it forces you to spam countermeasures the whole time you're in the combat zone.

[Der_Waffen 28]

in mp it seems that the incoming missile warning is very unreliable. Basically it forces you to spam countermeasures the whole time you're in the combat zone.

^^^this

[-=Grunt=- 10]

Most of the planes seem to not have "AA radar warning" when fired at. (Mostly non-AO planes)

There are mods that do fix that though.

[metalcraze 290]

Now I don't know to what degree exactly ArmA2 simulates this but you do know that heat-seeking missiles are completely undetectable by anything but human eyes in real world?

Only radar-guided missiles can be detected due to radar emissions.

[sprayer_faust 0]

^^^this

Buff AA, nerf aircrafts. :)

[Star Four One 10]

Hi... Just to start a new thread on the subject, I'm curious to know what planes are vunerable to the "invisible AA missle" I'm talking about no radar flash, or no incoming "m" on the radar screen.

I rarely play Blufor, so I know that the Stinger is always undetectable when fired at the Su-25. I've heard the same about the A-10 vs. maybe Strela or igla launchers.

Can anyone confirm what planes are vunerable to what missile systems?

I seem to be able to detect AA-pod stations and other missiles launched from choppers and planes...

The type of SAM threats you face in ArmA2 are undetectable by RWR because they are IR seeker heads; all aircraft in game are WVR exclusive, and armed with "heaters". 3rd and 4th Gen ACFT cannot detect these without a pod. BIS did something correct here.

S41

Edited January 29, 2011 by Star Four One

[mankyle 420]

The issue you are reporting is due to how the Su-25 RWR system is set in OA.

If you look at the code the SU-25 you see it has in the cpp the following lines

IncommingMisslieDetectionSystem = 0;
radarType = 4;

The incomingMisslieDetectionSystem = 0; means that there is no visual or audible warning when a missile is fired upon you.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

As I said in your previous thread this is a bug in game in my opinion.

Yes I'm aware that IRL no planes have incoming IR seeker detection capabilities but in game even the lowly MI-8 chopper can detect all in coming AA threats yet the SU-25 and A-10 cannot?

And to further add salt to the wound, both these CAS aircraft could previously detect incoming AA threats before a patch introduced this problem.

Would be good to get a BIS statement as to whether or not this was intentional or a simple slip up?

[Beagle 684]

As I said in your previous thread this is a bug in game in my opinion.

Yes I'm aware that IRL no planes have incoming IR seeker detection capabilities but in game even the lowly MI-8 chopper can detect all in coming AA threats yet the SU-25 and A-10 cannot?

And to further add salt to the wound, both these CAS aircraft could previously detect incoming AA threats before a patch introduced this problem.

Would be good to get a BIS statement as to whether or not this was intentional or a simple slip up?

Thats not true. Some Aircraft, mostly Helicopters have warning systems for incoming heaters. It's basically a wide anghle scanner looking for approaching heat signatures. Works naturally best if the lauch is far away, short distance launches are always problematic for any system.

The system in some of the Apaches is called AN/ALQ-212 with integrated AN/AAR-57 the MILDS in the Tiger is the AN/AAR-60.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Beagle

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Yes but what of the in-game balancing issues?

MI-8 has it yet SU-25 doesn't?

CH-47 has it yet A-10 doesnt?

[dm 9]

but you do know that heat-seeking missiles are completely undetectable by anything but human eyes in real world?

I'm aware that IRL no planes have incoming IR seeker detection capabilities

Entirely not true. The AN/AAR-47 and AN/AAR-57 both employ IR sensors to detect the heat of the rocket motor of an incoming missile.

Passive or active seeking does not matter, EVERYTHING you fire at an aircraft these days can be detected, tracked and countered (well, everything but bullets can be countered :p ).

Edit: Damn, sniped by beagle, although the ALQ-144 doesnt actually detect anything, it just constantly spams IR noise in an effort to disrupt IR sensors. The AAR-47 and -57 actually sense the incoming missile and then do something about it. Thats the difference between IRCM and the newer DIRCM, older stuff like the -144 just spams IR, newer systems integrated with the -47 and -57 installs fire frikken lasers at the incoming missles (hence the D, which means "Directional"), which is effing cool.

Edited January 29, 2011 by DM

[Beagle 684]

Entirely not true. The AN/AAR-47 and AN/AAR-57 both employ IR sensors to detect the heat of the rocket motor of an incoming missile.

Passive or active seeking does not matter, EVERYTHING you fire at an aircraft these days can be detected, tracked and countered (well, everything but bullets can be countered :p ).

Damn, sniped by beagle, although the ALQ-144 doesnt actually detect anything, it just constantly spams IR noise in an effort to disrupt IR sensors. The AAR-47 and -57 actually sense the incoming missile and then do something about it.

I corrected this already on the fly ;) Note...the SU-25 does not has this nor the A-10A but some Mil and Kamov helos are really equiped with a similar russian made system, This is because Helos are much, much more prone to be fired at with MANPADS.

Su-25 and A-10A are basically 80's technologie and were not much updated since the 90's because they did their job good without that fancy stuff.

So basically its like, some have, some have not and in the Armaverse the distribution of Weapons System does not follow the real world, but at least the emulated system do exist.

And to speak frank...the planes are already cheating enough with their exegerated missileproofness, super turn on a dime UFO flightmodel and super countermeasures and no subsystems to be damaged.

In fact planes should be banned from Multiplayer to keep at least some basic sense for a halfway realistic combat experience without UFOs and the Enterprise NCC-1701-A in orbit for "beam up" operations like "fast travel".

Edited January 29, 2011 by Beagle

[max power 21]

What you have depicted there is an AN/ALQ-144 IR Jammer. It emits confusing infrared signals, designed to jam incoming missiles. It isn't a sensor.

The actual sensors you're referring to are the AN/AAR-47 Missile Approach Warning System. They look like little flashlights distributed around an aircraft.

They work by looking for a missile's infrared signature. It can differentiate between missiles and other sources. Depending on which sensor detects the incoming missile, you can tell what general direction the missile is coming from.

You can also detect incoming missiles by radar, similar to a radar altimeter, where rapidly increasing or approaching signals would indicate some kind of threat. With these metrics you can ascertain the position and speed of an object.

And, of course, some aircraft are fitted with a radar warning receiver that's looking for radar signals and can gather information about radar signals and inform the crew of search radars, radar locks, radar types, and their direction.

[pooroldspike 129]

In MP it seems that the incoming missile warning is very unreliable. Basically it forces you to spam countermeasures the whole time you're in the combat zone.

Roger that,in 'Semi' mode every press of key 'R' releases a twin bundle of chaff and/or flares for most aircraft and choppers.

Or you can use 'Burst' mode (CTRL+R) to automatically release about haf-a-dozen bundles at 1-second intervals.

Your selected mode (and number of bundles remaining) displays just above the radar in the top left of the screen.

Screenshots of A-10 and SU-25 popping countermeasures here-

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/showthread.php?5449-ARMA2-Members-Screenshots/page9

Edited January 30, 2011 by PoorOldSpike

[-=Grunt=- 10]

Ah well, the "missile problem" is pretty easy to deal with in MP anyways, unless you're fighting a Tunguska (In which case, is very deadly). Su-25 and A10 doesn't have any problems out-running a Stinger/Igla/Strela chasing it in ArmA 2 haha.

[Beagle 684]

Ah well, the "missile problem" is pretty easy to deal with in MP anyways, unless you're fighting a Tunguska (In which case, is very deadly). Su-25 and A10 doesn't have any problems out-running a Stinger/Igla/Strela chasing it in ArmA 2 haha.

The funny thing is that the probvablity of a pilot kill is very high if you manage fo fire a MANPADS at a directly incoming aircraft.

btw. some mission makers swapped the AA pod missiles with Tunguska missiles. Its a bit of a shame that the game did not came with Hawk and BUK sam sites against that air pest that makes warfare mission no fun in the last 1-2 hours. Seriously, If I want to fly around I quit ArmA and play LockOn FC2...there you have to work hard for your 2 air to air and 5 air to ground kills in 2 hours of flight time.

Compared to this airplane operations and to a lesser degree helicopter operations are a arcade joke in a otherwise simulation grade game that ArmA 2 OA provides on the ground.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Beagle

[ginger mcale 11]

Yeah thats right. But when using Mando Missiles inside of the mission its nice. See Gossamer´s Warfare which have Mando Missiles integrated. The Vanilla Inbalance between Air and Ground is pretty much well handled. Can warmly recommend it.

[-=Grunt=- 10]

The funny thing is that the probvablity of a pilot kill is very high if you manage fo fire a MANPADS at a directly incoming aircraft.

btw. some mission makers swapped the AA pod missiles with Tunguska missiles. Its a bit of a shame that the game did not came with Hawk and BUK sam sites against that air pest that makes warfare mission no fun in the last 1-2 hours. Seriously, If I want to fly around I quit ArmA and play LockOn FC2...there you have to work hard for your 2 air to air and 5 air to ground kills in 2 hours of flight time.

Compared to this airplane operations and to a lesser degree helicopter operations are a arcade joke in a otherwise simulation grade game that ArmA 2 OA provides on the ground.

Yep, I remember XR Warfare server's ZeroG Mod Warfare, it replaces MANPADS' and Linebacker's Stingers to Tunguska, which works really well to balance out the AA. (The cost was raised too.. MANPAD = $10k)

It's pretty much a 90% hit chance when fired at with a tunguska if you don't see it coming on the radar. The only thing that's quite effective at dodging them is a Wildcat.

I remember Gossamer's Warfare Mandos' it was a really fun system but I don't get it why my game keeps crashing when ever I get into a HAWK missile system. Although I've seen it in action.. It literally keeps the skies clear of fly boys. (Except Little Birds, I've sneaked behind the enemy's base with it, their "similar-to-HAWK-system-forgot-the-name" didn't detect me)

[Der_Waffen 28]

Now I don't know to what degree exactly ArmA2 simulates this but you do know that heat-seeking missiles are completely undetectable by anything but human eyes in real world?

Only radar-guided missiles can be detected due to radar emissions.

seriously, not flaming anybody here.. but before people "Think" they know something, please, please, research what you are talking about.

Su-25, and A-10 doesn't use "80's technology" anymore.

Read what the russians have done to upgrade ALL their Su-25 Variants. Currently 60% of Russia's ENTIRE Su-25 have been upgraded to include the more sophisticated ECW and Radar Sweet. The new Koypo Radar provides all weather, day/night attack capabilities, and just read the spec's on how the New ECW suite can detect and defend against IR, Heat, and Radar controlled missles.

The electronic countermeasure (ECM)system is intended to carry out electronic reconnaissance and all-directional protection of aircraft in radar and IR band of electromagnetic waves inautomatic mode of operation without the pilot’s interference.

The system comprises:

- electronic reconnaissance set intended to pinpoint all existing ground, airborne and shipborne radars used for detection and fire-control, operating in 1.2-18 GHz and determine the most dangerous target, its coordinates and distance to it;

- small-size electronic active jammer, generating deflecting, noise, scintillating and re-targeting to underlying surface interferences;

- optronic jammer, generating an amplitude-frequency modulating interference to IR missile seekers;

- dispenser of IR decoys with 192 decoy projectiles generating passive jamming in conjunction with "cold" aircraft engines intended to frustrate at a critical moment over a target the AD missile portable systems of enemy attack;

- aircraft decoys to detect and deceive AD enemy systems lurking in ambushes, onboard fighter radars and missiles with all types of seekers.

So any type of missile fired at the "new" ECM suite on the su-25 will at least be detected, and most often will be automatically dispersed of, without imput from the pilot.

[Beagle 684]

seriously, not flaming anybody here.. but before people "Think" they know something, please, please, research what you are talking about.

Su-25, and A-10 doesn't use "80's technology" anymore.

Read what the russians have done to upgrade ALL their Su-25 Variants. Currently 60% of Russia's ENTIRE Su-25 have been upgraded to include the more sophisticated ECW and Radar Sweet. The new Koypo Radar provides all weather, day/night attack capabilities, and just read the spec's on how the New ECW suite can detect and defend against IR, Heat, and Radar controlled missles.

The electronic countermeasure (ECM)system is intended to carry out electronic reconnaissance and all-directional protection of aircraft in radar and IR band of electromagnetic waves inautomatic mode of operation without the pilot’s interference.

The system comprises:

- electronic reconnaissance set intended to pinpoint all existing ground, airborne and shipborne radars used for detection and fire-control, operating in 1.2-18 GHz and determine the most dangerous target, its coordinates and distance to it;

- small-size electronic active jammer, generating deflecting, noise, scintillating and re-targeting to underlying surface interferences;

- optronic jammer, generating an amplitude-frequency modulating interference to IR missile seekers;

- dispenser of IR decoys with 192 decoy projectiles generating passive jamming in conjunction with "cold" aircraft engines intended to frustrate at a critical moment over a target the AD missile portable systems of enemy attack;

- aircraft decoys to detect and deceive AD enemy systems lurking in ambushes, onboard fighter radars and missiles with all types of seekers.

So any type of missile fired at the "new" ECM suite on the su-25 will at least be detected, and most often will be automatically dispersed of, without imput from the pilot.

This is the armaverse not the real world, The russian stuff is heavily degraded in this game as is the US stuff when it comes to planes and AA. ArmA wil never be a flightsim, its a gound sim...the airplanes are just thrown in to give some support...they should be simply banned for player use in MP.

btw: the Upgraded A-10 is the A-10C which is not modelled in game, the upgraded SU-25 is a Su-25SM not modeled in game.

It is another fact that the rusian army does still usse 80's technology for the most simply because upgrade or replacement cost money...guess why the US has such a high debt.

Another fact is that airplanes should be used right...ALWAYS deploy Flares when going in hot and egress...and don't come back. The player beeing shot done mostly are for airshows over the target area to get that one kill.

Its a bit like this guys driving into a town, parking next to a camp with M1A2 and complaining why their super tank got destroyed there.

an now the best part rregarrdign ArmAverse and real world deployment.

There are just 20 Ka-52 in existance and only 16 Su-34, only half of them are operational, meaning the whole fleet is shot down in a sigle warfare MP session...so dotn use the word realism anymore concerning the ArmAverse.

in a RL battlefield you would encounter much more horrible thread like MiG-29SMT, Su-30, MiG-30 and S-300M

Lifetime for airplanes in SAM and AAA environment in ArmA is already hilarious long.

[Der_Waffen 28]

the reason why their are only 20 Ka-52's is because the helicopter is a modification of it's original. The original Kamov Ka-50 was a one seater. The Russian Air Force has made the Havoc It's main attack helicopter along with the Mi-24 Hind VP.

It's not true about the Su-34. They export more than 16. Don't know where you got that information.

Even the 80's era Su-25's had better ECM available, and DEFINITELY more survivability.

then taking 1 missle and it's all over.

What are you arguing about here?

this isn't about how Arma 2 isn't a flight sim,

It isn't about what version of Su-25 the game uses,

It'a about under armouring the plane in game, and the fact that the hand held missle systems in game are undetectable to aircraft.

please re-read the original post

[Beagle 684]

Even the 80's era Su-25's had better ECM available, and DEFINITELY more survivability.

then taking 1 missle and it's all over.

Play the game...a Su-25 rarely gets down before it ate 3 Stingers....with a hit probability of 30%. Thats means practically you have to fire 10 of the undermodeled Stingers into a Su-25.

the aircraft in ArmA are simplified to the point beeing ufos with anti missile shields that have to be worn off to get a kill...as no subsystem exist that can be dammages so a plane with only 1% HP left is as effective as one with 100%.

So please stop comparing this to real world or a dedicated Simulation, it's arcade.