Unleash the MLODs!

[dm 9]

Thanks Soul, at least someone is actually reading the responses rather than flailing around wildly trying to find some toe-holds for their flimsy argument.

Also, Dave, lern2grammar. I said it "wasnt moddable like its pc-parent", the key word there being "like", which according to the dictionary means:

–adjective

1.

of the same form, appearance, kind, character, amount

–preposition

6.

in like manner with; similarly to

12.

similar or comparable to

–adverb

16.

nearly; closely; approximately

Full definition available at dictionary.com

At no point did I say that it was not modable at all, the key words missing from my post being "at all". So for your case where I am supposedly misinformed about your post, I would suggest that it is you who is misinformed. ;)

Oh, and just so this is somewhat ontopic. BIS releasing all the MLODs for their A2 and DLC content isnt going to magically fix the community. It didnt for ArmA1, and it wont here.

Sure there will be a couple of weeks surge of the people making cut&paste addons, but for those truly dedicated to making content, they will just carry on regardless.

[Zipper5 74]

May not have "fixed the damage done" by ArmA itself to the community, but it certainly helped...

Edit: Gotta remain impartial, and this post didn't really help that. Sorry folks, still got the giant L on the back of my car, you could say. :o

Edited December 5, 2010 by Zipper5

[biggerdave 56]

Oh, and just so this is somewhat ontopic. BIS releasing all the MLODs for their A2 and DLC content isnt going to magically fix the community. It didnt for ArmA1, and it wont here.

Sure there will be a couple of weeks surge of the people making cut&paste addons, but for those truly dedicated to making content, they will just carry on regardless.

Two years, ten months (and counting!) is funny definition of "a couple of weeks"...

(Flimsy arguments? At least I'm actually making points, rather than saying everyone but me is wrong, demanding "proof" for other people's comments, while providing none for your own and nit-picking irrelevant details. A flawed argument's always better than an insult.)

[dm 9]

Did the number of addons released increase massively?

Was there an upsurge in new addon makers?

Did places like armaholic shut down because of too much traffic?

Has anyone released a "fix all" mod which resolves all of the problems with the ArmA1 content? (which appears to be a driving motive for releasing the A2 mlods)

Has anyone used the mlods to make all-encompassing variant-packs for each vehicle, weapon or solider? (another key motivation for having the A2 mlods, apparently)

I'm sure you'll find the answer to all these questions to be "no"

And I'm sure you'll find that what actually happened was that business carried on as usual. The same it would have with or without the MLODs.

The MLODs are not the "fix the communtiy" magic that you make them out to be. They contain very few "trade secrets", most of which has already been found out and documented by community members already.

Releasing the MLODs isnt going to fix the problems people like carlgustaffa have, they arent going to come with some magic configs which explain every config entry, every array, every float value in some magical detail.

You're still barking up the wrong tree dave... MLODs will help you because they have content in them that you want to use. Everybody else wants samples which explain clearly (without the fluff of a complicated visual model confusing things) how to implement a new feature. That is why your arguments fail.

[biggerdave 56]

Did the number of addons released increase massively?

Was there an upsurge in new addon makers?

Did places like armaholic shut down because of too much traffic?

Has anyone released a "fix all" mod which resolves all of the problems with the ArmA1 content? (which appears to be a driving motive for releasing the A2 mlods)

Has anyone used the mlods to make all-encompassing variant-packs for each vehicle, weapon or solider? (another key motivation for having the A2 mlods, apparently)

I'm sure you'll find the answer to all these questions to be "no"

And I'm sure you'll find that what actually happened was that business carried on as usual. The same it would have with or without the MLODs.

The number of addons increased. There are addons available right now that would not exist have the mlods not been released. That more than disproves your statement of "The same it would have with or without the MLODs". Everything else in this quote is exaggeration.

The MLODs are not the "fix the communtiy" magic that you make them out to be. They contain very few "trade secrets", most of which has already been found out and documented by community members already.

Releasing the MLODs isnt going to fix the problems people like carlgustaffa have, they arent going to come with some magic configs which explain every config entry, every array, every float value in some magical detail.

But It would solve issues people like Icewindo have.

As far as I'm aware the only person who's ever made out that MLODs are "fix the community magic" is the strawman you seem to be arguing with. Which does raise the question of why you seem think everyone else thinks the community is somehow broken?

You're still barking up the wrong tree dave... MLODs will help you because they have content in them that you want to use. Everybody else wants samples which explain clearly (without the fluff of a complicated visual model confusing things) how to implement a new feature. That is why your arguments fail.

I won't deny I would use the MLODs if they were released. But I'm hardly unique in this regard. Almost every addon created since the ArmA.1 MLODs were released has used BIS's AimPoint model. Almost every addon with an aimpoint sight created since the ArmA.1 MLODs were released has used BIS's AimPoint model. Almost every infantry model created since the MLODs were released has been based on BIS's solder MLOD. I can list a few more examples, but I think you get the picture here.

You might as well tell the UN that human rights aren't necessary, and the only reason they're arguing for them is because they're humans, and therefore stand to benefit! :p

Edited December 5, 2010 by BiggerDave
I have a f*cking headache right now and all you people dissecting every last typo and oversight are NOT helping...

[vilas 477]

Aimpoint on everything and without BIS Aimpoint we would not have weapon models ?

hmmm... where can you find Aimpoint on I44 , Unsung or P85 or BW Mod

Aimpoint is only need when someone make US weapons , but if you use Aimpoint as example than i can say that minority of addons need it

unless someone is making US weapon, he doesn't need Aimpoint or unless someone wants to call himself addonmaker making AK Aimpoint :]

if you say that almost every addon created since A1 had Aimpoint, than you missed 99% of community addons (even if only talking about weapons)

please check more of them and you will find 100s of weapons made without Aimpoint or even without BIS mesh, not only specific to country of orign like Polish, Spanish, Swedish, French, Russian , Chinese, German, American , Italian weapons

DM you have PM

Edited December 5, 2010 by vilas

[JdB 151]

I assume the aimpoint is a metaphor for "BIS model parts that can be used as a common model standard by many different addonmakers". BIS had some optical sights on the OFP weapons. They were available, but they didn't end up to be the common optical sights of OFP, those of Earl & Suchey, Laser, BAS and SJB did (aimpoint, reflex, eotech, Cobra, Elcan, ACOG, PSO1 etc). Custom made ones. BIS had nothing to do with that. That's just one example of MLODs not setting a standard for equipment, but addonmakers choosing other addonmaker's work because it was a) already available b) better quality (more realistic) c) more fitting with the time period, BIS' being 80s era technology.

I suspect commonality will not benefit all that much from BIS releasing MLODs.

You do have a point about the soldier models, but that is only because rigging a new model would be relatively difficult for the average addonmaker. I44 used the ArmA1 soldier model in ArmA1, but may very well have decided not to if it had been just as easy (note that I am not saying "just as fast" :p) to just make a new one (and reworking the modern soldier into WW2 era for 3 branches took some time, modeling a new one might very well have cost less time if it hadn't been for the rigging and selections).

Edited December 5, 2010 by JdB

[biggerdave 56]

Aimpoint on everything and without BIS Aimpoint we would not have weapon models ?

hmmm... where can you find Aimpoint on I44 , Unsung or P85 or BW Mod

Aimpoint is only need when someone make US weapons , but if you use Aimpoint as example than i can say that minority of addons need it

You know full well what I meant to say! :p

But, if you insist, here's the version that insults your intelligence:

Almost every weapon addon that uses the aimpoint attachment created since the release of the BIS MLODs has used BIS's model of the aimpoint.

Happy now? You brought this upon yourself... :rolleyes:

Edit: You ninja'd me John! No, I wasn't trying to be smart or anything, I just had a brainfart :(

Edited December 5, 2010 by BiggerDave

[Fox '09 14]

we don't need all the mlods, we could use some sample models.

[PuFu 4599]

it is myth regarding my work, taken from time when OFP tools were only tools and Arma tools were not released so no RVMAT could be applied and 8 bit texview

repeating it only annoys me, taking under account many addons i have seen and tested, i dont know why people have wrong view not testing and not trying something , or propaganda spread by some of ACE.

Firstly, my post wasn't directed to you specifically.

That said, i still stand behind my statement: i prefer quality over quantity anyday.

Secondly, i really doubt everyone is against your work, most likely on the contrary. But your attitude is doing more harm than good. I am very familiar with the ACE incident regarding the brad, and it is not 100% the way you put it.

___________________

Back on the MLODS:

1. Fixing the model related issues:

i would rather have BIS fix those rather than use a mod that does the work BIS should be doing.

2. More content:

it wouldn't really be more, it would be more of a copycat job anyways.

I am aware that A1 MLODs have been used, and are still in use currently, but that doesn't change much.

If sample models for each new A2/OA feature would be available, that would be enough for me, and a lot of others.

I know what i am missing from BIS, and that is a couple of sample models. And i know what i would do with those. Now, back at you D@VL, what do you need mlods for? What information are you missing, and how can MLODs help you out there?

What about BI releasing all the A2/OA content in MLOD format, but missing the first 2 LODs? Would that suffice your needs?

[biggerdave 56]

Now, back at you D@VL, what do you need mlods for? What information are you missing, and how can MLODs help you out there

What about BI releasing all the A2/OA content in MLOD format, but missing the first 2 LODs? Would that suffice your needs?

The "gimpy arms" bug relating from basing new characters around the old MLODs comes to mind. That said, I've seen soldiers based off these models that don't have this bug, so I'm sure there's an obvious solution I haven't noticed in the year or so I've been trying to fix this... other than this, mainly referencing model.cfg stuff.

Missing the first two LODs would be workable for a lot of stuff. But wouldn't work for everything (ie, weapon animations, most of which only exist on the first two LODs).

To be honest, I don't need MLODs that much, but I've seen a lot of people requesting stuff (there was a thread I noticed here yesterday requesting things like an SVD with a thermal sight, it definitely wouldn't be first time I've seen stuff like this requested), and I can't help but think, if they had the MLODs, adding these would be child's play. (Of course, if they were released I'd probably find a use for them, no point in putting the cart before the horse though, as they say)

(It's actually "D@ve", for some reason, when the forum changed software the "e" changed to this weird L thing, I haven't been bothered to get it fixed yet :butbut: )

Edited December 7, 2010 by BiggerDave

[max power 21]

Sounds like you need to either build an arma 1 skeleton in the configs or use the arma 2 sample character to guide you assigning proper weighted named selections for your characters.

I've never tried myself but I hear assigning weighted selections in O2 is frustrating. Is it a difficult thing or just a slow process?

[vilas 477]

The "gimpy arms" bug relating from basing new characters around the old MLODs comes to mind. That said, I've seen soldiers based off these models that don't have this bug, so I'm sure there's an obvious solution I haven't noticed in the year or so I've been trying to fix this... other than this, mainly referencing model.cfg stuff.

none of my units ( or units made by Bink, FFAA, Hexagen, BW Mod and other many many men) have problem with twisting Arms (i don't say about weapon animations in OA) since BIS released one simple soldier MLOD

it's nothing hard, but i have seen some soldiers units models in which people had helmet shadow over cap or naked head

seems like some addonmakers forget that there are other LODs , not only visual resolution LODs

To be honest, I don't need MLODs that much, but I've seen a lot of people requesting stuff (there was a thread I noticed here yesterday requesting things like an SVD with a thermal sight,

i can do SVD with thermal sight, no problem, but people will moan on and on

one will want real sound, another will want default, third will say that addon is bad, cause doesn't have his tag before file ... etc.

if someone afraid of blood he should not be surgeon, if someone afraid of all , should not be policeman, if someone has problems with all other than copy-paste or import, should not be addonmaker or at least cooperate with others

the only problem that really exist is problem of "i wanna be famous and boss, but i can't or don't want to work harder" (also like there are in community people who first demand MLODs, later bash and flame addon and go to every site to rate it zero points (or competee addons) for them any SVD with thermal will be bad and ugly, even if model will be twice more complicated than BIS , with bolt animated and safety switch open etc. )

Edited December 8, 2010 by vilas

[biggerdave 56]

none of my units ( or units made by Bink, FFAA, Hexagen, BW Mod and other many many men) have problem with twisting Arms (i don't say about weapon animations in OA) since BIS released one simple soldier MLOD

it's nothing hard, but i have seen some soldiers units models in which people had helmet shadow over cap or naked head

seems like some addonmakers forget that there are other LODs , not only visual resolution LODs

Like I said, I have seen work that doesn't have this bug (or at least, doesn't appear to have this bug, I've found a workaround, by creating duplicate weapon classes that don't use the new animations, but it's not really a "fix" per say, and doesn't work with all weapons, for example, the M79), but I haven't been able to work out how they've fixed it, my current belief is that it's some kind of "foule majick". (not to accuse you of being some kind of "darke wizzard", but until you tell me your secrets, I shall assume this is the case!)

(though, now that I think about it, "Vilas" does sound like a good name for a wizard)

As for shadows and shading for items that aren't there and whatnot! I'm going to agree with you. I realize people can't test everything, but something like this can be spotted on Buldozer, you don't even need to test the addon ingame to see this bug! :butbut:

safety switch open etc.

I've never understood about people who get really concerned about the position of the selector switch... most of the times people would see it (ie, actually get a good enough look at the weapon to notice the position of the switch), it'd be in safe anyway... poor trigger discipline otherwise! Supposed to be a military simulator, not a redneck simulator :rolleyes:

[vilas 477]

SVD : http://www.armaholic.eu/vilas/scr/rw_wip_7.jpg

comparision in first picture, BIS SVD cannot fire - it is in safe position ;) i don't remember if BIS VSS is safety-switched too

what concerns arms issue:

take BIS Arma2 MLOD of soldier - copy Geo , Memory LODs and paste to Arma1 model

it will make Arma1 model of unit - jump over obstacles, have proper wrist , also copy and place head proxy in first LOD in place of old head from A1

when your Arma1 APC vehicle jumps like it was too light , give it mass in Geometry at least 25 000 , while in Arma1 it could have 12 000 , here not, in A2 it will jump

many Arma1 MLODs of units have nose shadow problem, open shadow LOD, select nose as head too

nose was not selected as head in most of Arma1 units MLODS (causing strange nose shadow in A2)

when arms are twisted because of custom animation (OA, or said 1.56 patch) there is no way to avoid it, just replace custom anim to BIS anim :(

those are not secrets, Arma1 model of unit took like that, won't work in Arma2

it must have technical (not visible for player) LODs from Arma2 sample

it must have new cfg_model (regarding head as proxy and some more changes)

Edited December 8, 2010 by vilas

[galzohar 31]

Vilas, not everyone make stuff in order to become famous and respectful. Some make it so that there is actually more to play the game with and use in missions. Or at least I really want to believe that...

[vilas 477]

Vilas, not everyone make stuff in order to become famous and respectful. Some make it so that there is actually more to play the game with and use in missions. Or at least I really want to believe that...

than what about people who bash /flame topic of your addon (or go to other forums to put rate = 0 in rating form) when you refuse them re-release ?

than what about people who just want to re-release your job under their tag and say "i will destroy you" when you refuse to be just "noted in readme" ?

what about people who import anything (even with mistakes) to release and take wooow (in past people showing CS models as theirs) and people releasing BIS or Arma community models for other games ?

i don't say only about this community, but about many other modding (modding is since RTCW - great many mods/maps, my first steps were in RTCW (reskins) and AVP1 (porn movies and sounds instead of soldiers reports on screens and pink Aliens and Predator asking for cigarette, i made silly obscene mod which was not released because of content in 2001, also speeches of politicians were replacing soldier-reports in missions , it was silly and obscene mod for AVP1), MoH, BF... all quake-engine)

what about people who will not allow you to use single wheel from their car even if your addon not competee with their ? for example you make army of country X, they made army of country Y, your army use vehicle ABC with turret XYZ 25 mm, their country uses ABC with 12.7 mm turret

you could take hull from them and give it new turret , other camo (not doubling addon) and not allow ?

when someone wants parts of my tanks or tanks for other use than "US woodland, cold war, Polish army" i agree, many mods get LEOs or even for mix Leo+Marder (Argentina has such tank , Leo turret placed on hull of Marder) but do you think i was spending my time on making some vehicles painted in Polish cammo already done by other mods, cause i had too much time ? (nevermind, not discussion in this topic, ended long time ago, so let's not get in permissions issues topic)

or people who wanna release 5-th version of "the same rifle, the same unit"

if already exist "the same but with other tag" ?

remember missionmaking for OFP ? you wanna make mission, you wanna add units and give them MP5, G36 - 20 version of the same model and textures from CS , you don't know what to use, cause all are equal, while player has already 11 version of the same on his disc, he have to download 12-th version of "the same"

why people do such things ? cause they feel boring ?

it is only "reward" we have for time we spent (some of us dream to change work from boring office job to graphic job, for some of us it is fresh air and forgetting about real-life problems, like i was doing when i was after one love-break "to not think about life" 2 years ago - thanx to it i had time for P85 )

-------

back on topic

D@ve what else you want to know for your SLA project , that could be helpfull (except arms issue) ?

maybe you should open for more cooperation (i know, doing all ourselves gives us proud and fun, i know )

instead of BIS MLODs from our knowledge we (other addonmakers) can help

like APS GNAT helps people and thanx to him my W-3 helicopter works, like thanx to Granq i have animated hatches since Arma1 on vehicles etc. not thanx to BIS, but community members helped , thanx to RHS i learned to make bumper suspension on tanks etc.

Edited December 8, 2010 by vilas

[biggerdave 56]

what concerns arms issue:

take BIS Arma2 MLOD of soldier - copy Geo , Memory LODs and paste to Arma1 model

Memory LOD...

Like I said, something obvious I've overlooked! :butbut:

Many thanks :)

or people who wanna release 5-th version of "the same rifle, the same unit"

You have to bear in mind, a lot of people make simple addons in order to learn how to make more complex addons. If this leads to the situation, like in the OFP days, where every other release is an "M4 pack", then I guess that's the cost of progress.

Of course, that said, like you say, there will be people releasing something that's been done a thousand times already because they (usually erroneously) think they can do it better...

[vilas 477]

than if you have any other need, we can continue on PM, your forum or your SLA topic

yes, memory lod has points to anim parts of skeleton

geometry of Arma2 cause ability of soldier to jump

and remember about this nose

this is very annoying , that i had to open every model from P85, select nose to make it working in A2 ;)

also some people have addons where shadows make problems on screen (shadows)

Arma 2 require that all shadow LOD is "sharp edges, triangled"

so take shadow lod, select all, typ U and / from keyboard

U will make all sharp-edged, / will make it triangle and if faces are closed , than there should not be situation when soldiers shadows cause strange artifact shadows

[Banderas 0]

Sorry I write this without reading through the whole thread, gotta go to bed.

I think it's not a need to hurry and release every available MLOD that BIS has right now, but as ArmA 2 content probably won't be upgraded to OA standards (IR/TI mainly), BI should consider to release the MLODS from A2 only in the near future, to let the community more easily edit them to the new standards.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i think that BIS should release the ArmA2 MLODs as they did on the ArmA, this means:

- Male civilian.

- Female civilian.

- US soldier.

- US SF (Recon & Assault).

- Russian soldier.

- Russian SF (Recon & Assault).

- RES sniper (guillie).

- Basic weapons (booth sides).

- Wheeled vehicles (a HMMWV & a Vodnik).

- Wheeled APCs (LAV-25 III & BTR 90).

- A MBT (the M1A2 or the T-90UM).

- Transport chopper (UH-1Y).

- Attack chopper (KA-52).

- Transport plane (C-130).

- A Wreck (the UH-1Y wreck).

That's what i'll spect 'em to release as MLOD so we could do our own stuff 100% ArmA2 compatible, without problems of broken anims, missed textures or config lines; i've the personal theory that they don't release the MLODs because we'll see how bad they did the things with many clear mistakes and errors, but that's just my opinion... release the ArmA2 MLODs will be good for all... for us as players and amateur addon makers... and for 'em as game developers, because we'll bring new life to their game (product) and the people will talk more about it (free publicity) bringing maybe new players (customers) that will get (buy) their game (product) so in the end we'll all win. We (i'll) need the ArmA2 MLODs to make addons with at least... the same quality than the game's standard content. Let's C ya

[STALKERGB 6]

I've never tried myself but I hear assigning weighted selections in O2 is frustrating. Is it a difficult thing or just a slow process?

Both difficult and slow lol! Well mainly slow, personally if BIS released a way of automating the weighting of an infantry unit I'd ditch the sample models (or the bits that remain on my infantry) completely. I'd rather create something myself than re-hash bits of the BIS models and I know it can be done and that I could do it but I just don't have the time at the moment...

Maybe if BIS released tutorials on how to get a man/car/plane etc working in game, say, taking you through each step for the model (the different LODs and selection names etc) and then a sample config for them. Dunno if that would be a decent alternative, there would be an increased knowledge base from it too.

[Binkowski 26]

I've never tried myself but I hear assigning weighted selections in O2 is frustrating. Is it a difficult thing or just a slow process?

difficult, and slow as stalkergb said. i'm not to grand at it, mainly because i don't have the patience. this is why the latest us marine d00ds i was doing have basically gone dark. they were messed up in game due to named selections and such..

[max power 21]

When I was learning character animation in XSI, they taught us to go from the start to the end of a chain... So you select the whole arm including the hand and assign it to the humerus bone. Then you dis-select the points controller by the humerus bone and assign the remaining selection to the forearm bones. Then you dis-select the points controlled by the fore arm bones and assign the remaining selected vertexes to the hand bone, etc, all the way down. Once you get to the tips of the fingers, you save the file, blend weights slightly, test it out, and badabing.

[itax 0]

I think that BIS should only release some MLODS. For example U.S Soldier, RUS Solder, Civilian (Male, Female), 1tank, 1car, 1heli and 1plane. That would be enough to show new people who want to start modding, how everything works.