Unleash the MLODs!

[vilas 477]

i said about laziness, not about forbidding it (look, hex editor can reskin any ODOL, also textureslection allow to make any reskin for vehicle or unit )

MLOD is not required to reskin :P

people can do many things when they will sit their ass for while instead of moaning , if many addonmakers released own models - i don't understand problem for need of all MLODs

i understand that destructible buildings MLODs + cfg_models would be awsome, like soldiers with new proxy aka backpack and such like

some vehicles with tyre destruction etc.

some soldiers MLOD would also be welcome and nice to have them

but i don't say "BIS don't release", but i say that it is no problem that those files not released, cause many people do many different models - all of us get Arma1 MLODs

it is simply not a big problem that those MLODs are not released

from the past i know that some bashing and flaming addons people were mostly those who wanted to "have fame without any effort" (i won't type who, but some people wanted for exampl P85 stuff to release it under their own flag, while they even have problem with model and UV simple box, but want to have own mod, copying already done things)

so it is not a matter of MLODs by BIS, it is more matter of some guys who should spend some more time on learning, not just demanding

i spent a lot of time learning things , all work (payed or not payed) require learning and effort not just one-click

Zipper you misunderstood my intentions

MLODs would be nice welcome, but lack of them is not a problem, if it is problem - than only for some guys who would love to be famous without work hard

for fame we have to work hard, just like in music

imagine that some band will require Metallica to give all copy rights to play their songs and release CD with composition of Metallica music, or more... already existing tracks from studio records

those who release own models - spend their time , effort, learn,

some others want "own tag" instead of "work on it" , and really , it is possible to do many things from existing addons, it is possible to get permissions from addonmakers etc. (many mods get many models from many modelers, if there were refusals than only from some mods and/or when doubling content as competition to original author - like i refused to people who wanted re-release my addons (wtf??) while my Leopards are in 5-6 or 7 (yet 2-3 released) mods and not only Leopards )

just some effort

Arma2 FLIR content would be super, but probably BIS will hold for DLC (if they will do such thing)

people already payed few times for copy-paste from BIS too, so giving all MLODs would be stopping also next maybe planned DLCs in future (look at Queens Gambit AKS74 + PSO, look at XM-8 + some scopes in PMC )

Edited December 3, 2010 by vilas

[topas 1]

could allow things like working horses

Wonder if we ever live to see it... Man, would this be great,,,:rolleyes:

Imagine all the possibilities for historic mods (since the eraliest times, until the 20th century and even in it's first third it was the horse who helped to win wars...)

Not to mention that Takistan, or any other Afghan environment looks empty and dead...and this in a land that for centuries has been populated by men who were born and raised in the saddle... Well, chernarus too...

Damn, with horses and JadeGrove-type islands we could even make an Arma version of

for PC:D Edited December 3, 2010 by topas

[vilas 477]

yes, releasing some animals MLOD + cfg_models would help animate and do more animals (like horse)

but still there is engine limitation - riding on animal

so it is more suggestion for DLC than MLODs , but riding animal like horse would be great for historic mods

[topas 1]

Well, not only historic ;)

[ProfTournesol 956]

yes, releasing some animals MLOD + cfg_models would help animate and do more animals (like horse)

but still there is engine limitation - riding on animal

so it is more suggestion for DLC than MLODs , but riding animal like horse would be great for historic mods

If it's possible in OFP, it's more than possible in ArmA2, with better modellers / animators than I am :)

wGit8E-J-pA

[whisper 0]

Basically, any undocumented new feature, in an ideal world, should be :

* documented

* provided on a sample model

Like a few example above have shown, not everything is covered today.

As long as it is the case, BI models will be ripped apart by community to dig into them, and be converted into "community knowledge" somewhere (OFPEC, forums, DH, etc...), and the source of knowledge of people stating that "we know everything already" is necessarily coming from model ripping in some way (for anything concerning p3d and textures/rvmat, configs can be extracted easily by scripting way)

Each new feature should come with doc and samples, not rely on the community taking a peek on BIs model, if BI is really expecting the mod community to use these new features

which means we need updated samples

which doesn't mean we need all MLOD, at all

[biggerdave 56]

Basically, any undocumented new feature, in an ideal world, should be :

* documented

* provided on a sample model

Like a few example above have shown, not everything is covered today.

As long as it is the case, BI models will be ripped apart by community to dig into them, and be converted into "community knowledge" somewhere (OFPEC, forums, DH, etc...), and the source of knowledge of people stating that "we know everything already" is necessarily coming from model ripping in some way (for anything concerning p3d and textures/rvmat, configs can be extracted easily by scripting way)

Each new feature should come with doc and samples, not rely on the community taking a peek on BIs model, if BI is really expecting the mod community to use these new features

which means we need updated samples

which doesn't mean we need all MLOD, at all

The issue with ripped models, is that BIS has no control over them. So, if someone does crack the code (given enough time, people will crack the code), they've got no reason to share this work with the community. When BIS released the MLODs for ArmA.1 they did so under a license, meaning they can control what people actually do with their content. Without this, the only thing they can really do content based on ripped models is have it removed.

[maddogx 13]

The issue with ripped models, is that BIS has no control over them. So, if someone does crack the code (given enough time, people will crack the code), they've got no reason to share this work with the community. When BIS released the MLODs for ArmA.1 they did so under a license, meaning they can control what people actually do with their content. Without this, the only thing they can really do content based on ripped models is have it removed.

That still doesn't explain why BIS should release all models as MLODs, instead of just giving us sample models and documentation that covers all currently supported features in Arma2, as Whisper said.

All that is needed would be an example model for each type of entity that contains all currently supported features, aswell as accompanying documentation. That way people wouldn't need to "rip" any models either.

Edited December 3, 2010 by MadDogX

[vilas 477]

rip is not useful when it comes to units - cause selections have to be applied to mesh

seems that laziness /or lack of skills + fame need is such , that applying selections is also problem (cause copy-paste elements have alredy named selections, but if characters are big letter/small letter than also problem appears)

some people in other topic demanded MLODs from addonmakers "for learn purpose" while in real you can't learn from mesh , you won't see how it was edited, stretched, cut - step by step

all MLODs = "i won't even do simple cap or simple pouch cause i can't/'m lazy/want faster in second/ ?"

someone said i advertise myself, but hey, i had the same A1 MLODs and i have no-vest unit :

http://ofp.gamepark.cz/_hosted/vilas/screens/p85/85_19.jpg

http://ofp.gamepark.cz/_hosted/vilas/screens/bonus851.jpg

http://www.armaholic.eu/vilas/scr/show6.jpg

http://www.armaholic.eu/vilas/scr/citylife.jpg

all was made by editing Arma1 released MLODs and editing UV

why other's cant ?

if i was called like quantity not quality words, than why it is not a problem to have such unit for people who think they are quality ?

only issue with ripped models is in selections put on mesh and properties in GEO/technical LODs, only

mesh without selection is worthless in game , but applying selection is possible, only requires some effort and time spend on it (putting all "spine" "neck" "shoulder" selections)

MLODs + cfg_model of:

- destructible building

- animal

- soldier with backpack proxy

- weapon with laser etc. boomsticks

- maybe something more like car with new damage system

would be very needed

but i know where is issue in "my 5-th pack of M4 with EOT and SVD with ACOG" "my recon super special forces units (opened soldier, deleted googles, added two more pouches, all by one click )" and "i don't want to ask for permission of guy who released G36 with AG36, cause i wanna release exactly the same from his model, and he will not allow me to double, when i will have all mlods i will do exactly the same AG36 and release it and i will be huuuge boss, he was making AG some hours, i will cut it from XM8 or L85 in second and say that my is better and his is worse"

(S_A, you said about my frustration, but really i had some flaming on my topic "about bugs and low quality models" when i refused permission, people spread bullshit about low-poly in revenge of not giving permission, while i have opened some other mods weapons and really some famous mods had much more cubic rifles or tanks , Arma1 or Arma2, but let's quit my person here , lets focus on issue of all mlods release as a must for BIS)

people won't testify "i wanna have addon, but i don't want to spent on it more than 10 minutes"

oxygen even allows to do all from scratch without any other 3ds :]

for sure some MLODS would be very very very needed

probably now we have no idea how to make custom destroyable house, many of us still have problems in advanced destruction models etc.

some of us spent many hours to make something, others want it in second and not want to learn

but if they would spend more on learning, they would discover than it is not so hard to do it,

more patience and more learning, less hurry, bigger pain than MLODs are cfg_models in many cases

[biggerdave 56]

That still doesn't explain why BIS should release all models as MLODs, instead of just giving us sample models and documentation that covers all currently supported features in Arma2, as Whisper said.

All that is needed would be an example model for each type of entity that contains all currently supported features, aswell as accompanying documentation. That way people wouldn't need to "rip" any models either.

Well, spend a penny, spend a pound. Murphy's law says, if they release the F35 as an example of a vtol craft, someone's got a model of a V44 ready, but can't work out how to get tilt-rotors to work in a model.cfg :p

[rksl-rock 1300]

Well, spend a penny, spend a pound. Murphy's law says, if they release the F35 as an example of a vtol craft, someone's got a model of a V44 ready, but can't work out how to get tilt-rotors to work in a model.cfg :p

They why dont they ask on the forums? Its not like people here don't help each other out.

I think a sample of each class would be ideal but i don't see the need or the likelihood to release every model in MLOD.

Having said that I do think adding support for hiddentexture skin replacements would be a bloody good direction to go.

Edited December 3, 2010 by RKSL-Rock
typos

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Because without dissecting it, nobody would (read: might) know? You can't ask on the forum, because you're not allowed to bump the question. Makes it damned hard to get questions answered sometimes. But a copy&paste from stock would do the trick. I've asked about the empty[] format on cfgSFX configs (not even mentioned on the Biki except that it is missing) since OFP, what it really does.

BIS seems very reluctant to answer any questions related to sounds and how the sound engine actually works. And few seems to actually know these things, other than, myself included, educated but still pretty wild guesses. Copy&paste sometimes helps (but not always), but you have to stress your luck hard to turn what you find into factual knowledge instead of wild guesses.

PMC missions are protected. And I have a feeling it may hold a solution to a problem I've had since OFP days (triggers and perfectly looping spatial sounds, and wtf is going on with the mysterious hidden sound object within it that causes mine to fail). They actively prevent me from looking at it, at least with some leisurely easiness. It's like the debugging tools they get to use but is unaccessible to us. Unpacking modules didn't reveal much new in this respect (might have overlooked something). But then again, what I'm looking for might be in modules_pmc - which is guess what - protected.

So it has changed from everything is pokable to you can poke at what we allow you to poke at. Not a good sign from someone supporting modding. I'm not saying modding support is bad, in fact it's quite good. But I have to say, I suspected this would happen the first day I saw the words DLC mentioned, it had to turn into something like this, it was unavoidable.

So with that, I'm pretty much fed up and ready to shelf this for good, as I'm no longer capable of finding what I'm looking for by examining examples because what I want to look at is made inaccessible.

[[frl]myke 14]

Lads, we're drifting offtopic here. It is about BIS releasing MLOD's, not more and not less. Configs and scripts are another topic.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Than make a simple poll eg:

"Vote - for sample MLOD's for each A2 and OA class or against!"

[] YES, sample MLOD's are a good way to support the community.

[] NO, BIS should spend their time with other A2OA/DLC problems.

Why make it hard when it could be easy? One could also think that modding has become philosophical with more debating and discussing than doing... but maybe its the natural aging? ;):)

[max power 21]

I don't see that poll being very much use. No reasonable person would vote no. In the end, it's not like BIS doesn't know that community modders want more information and resources. That poll will not affect anyone's opinions in the community or on staff at BIS, I think.

[biggerdave 56]

I edited the first post with some of the developments in this thread. Also clarified a few things to better match my own opinions, as some people understandably misinterpreted what I said!

Was originally going to add a poll, but like Max Power said, there's not really much point. It'd only really just be a form of empty justification.

Edited December 4, 2010 by BiggerDave

[STALKERGB 6]

There is already an ArmA2 sample model for soldiers released, with backpacks and all that jazz

AFAIK There isn't a sample model with the backpack proxy on, I think it was RavenDK who released that. There is also no official documents on creating custom backpacks but that has already been sorted by the community.

I'm in two minds over MLODs being released, to be honest I did use the Arma 1 MLODs when they were released quite a lot when I was starting out but I think that was mainly because there were lots of things I wanted to make/do that I didn't have the ability for. I guess then you hit a level where thats no longer enough and you start making more of your own stuff and the need for the MLODs starts to fade. I don't think I've opened the MLODs for A1 for months, maybe even at all this year!

I'd maybe advocate having say, one model of each faction or one model of each type (plane/infantry/car etc).

[vilas 477]

poll ?

maybe do poll "should ms. Angelina Jolie give you her body for a week and her bank account"

who would vote no ??

you wanna make poll disputing about other's property /source of benefits ?

if there was such voting about other addons MLODs ? some people in past was saying that for example individual modeler MUST give him MLOD

you cannot vote what other person must do with his work (it looks like communist nationalization of property in 1945 in my country, people were voting to whom give other persons land or house , i didn't know there are more socialists like me, hehehehe, ironic, but in fact it is even more socialistic then me )

in time you discussing this tread - i would spend on learning editing UV, few days is time you could do more than you discuss on forum

asking other person - as we said (me, other people, GNAT) is not a problem, Dave, infact as i remember i offered my help on other forum when you shown your SLA mod idea ... so what's the problem with BIS MLODs if you not even wanted help of other addonmaker, but spend few days discussing

during writing in forum, time could be spent on model

Edited December 4, 2010 by vilas

[soul_assassin 1750]

in time you discussing this tread - i would spend on learning editing UV, few days is time you could do more than you discuss on forum

that is so true

[vilas 477]

few days of posting is time enough to do for example this:

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4226/29525003.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1460/21823523.jpg

begin of engineering vehicle (repair vehicle on T72 hull)

or this (small edition, collar added, North Korean, texture made):

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/9793/69811061.jpg

instead of posting, some time spent

but i know that copy-paste element is for hurry people, who wanna spent 5 minutes on addon, not 5 days

this topic is 2 days old, how many hours spend on posting ?

[dm 9]

in time you discussing this tread - i would spend on learning editing UV, few days is time you could do more than you discuss on forum

during writing in forum, time could be spent on model

I'll quote this for truth (another rare occasion where me and vilas actually agree on something)

The difference between now and the OFP days is that we were working hard to understand things in the OFP days, now everyone just expects it to be handed to them on a silver platter...

I know I enjoyed the experimentation and boundary breaking just as much as actually creating the addons. What has changed with the active community now that they require everything to be done for them?

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'll quote this for truth (another rare occasion where me and vilas actually agree on something)

The difference between now and the OFP days is that we were working hard to understand things in the OFP days, now everyone just expects it to be handed to them on a silver platter...

I know I enjoyed the experimentation and boundary breaking just as much as actually creating the addons. What has changed with the active community now that they require everything to be done for them?

Most of the people asking for SAMPLE mlods release are old modders from the OFP time, the same who have broken some of its limits.

[Zipper5 74]

What has changed with the active community now that they require everything to be done for them?

BIS' work is more thoroughly protected by their EULA, their work is harder to de-encrypt, there is less toleration for de-encrypting their work (primarily because the same methods can be used to steal community members' work, and we've all seen how much that's appreciated recently), making addons is a lot more difficult than they were in OFP (normal maps, model/texture quality), etc.

Those are just a few reasons, I'm sure there are others.

Sure, I've noticed a big change in the attitudes of the community, people have indeed gotten lazier, but the process of modding has also become a lot more complex. Some people just don't have as much time as before. I know from discussions with other members of this community, who will remain unnamed, that they feel entirely de-motivated to create more content because hardly anyone will use them when it's the norm to use big mods, like ACE2, and they have no intention of creating "the next ACE2".

Edited December 4, 2010 by Zipper5

[[frl]myke 14]

I know from discussions with other members of this community, who will remain unnamed, that they feel entirely de-motivated to create more content because hardly anyone will use them when it's the norm to use big mods, like ACE2, and they have no intention of creating "the next ACE2".

I vaguely remember that some month ago i've started a thread covering exactly this subject and i also remember that i got flamed to hell for this.

But now, all of a sudden, even a BIS Forum Moderator agrees to that very same problem i was pointing at that time.

[biggerdave 56]

few days of posting is time enough to do for example this:

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4226/29525003.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1460/21823523.jpg

begin of engineering vehicle (repair vehicle on T72 hull)

or this (small edition, collar added, North Korean, texture made):

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/9793/69811061.jpg

instead of posting, some time spent

but i know that copy-paste element is for hurry people, who wanna spent 5 minutes on addon, not 5 days

this topic is 2 days old, how many hours spend on posting ?

Yet, in both of these addons you've copied and pasted things from the ArmA.1 MLODs. Are you actually trying to make a point, Vilas, or are you just advertising your stuff?