Dutch pim fortuyn killed

[Gorgi Knootewoot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ May 07 2002,13:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Can anyone confirm that they're now saying in Holland that the murderer is an environmental activist?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes i can. They search the killers house and he was an environmental activist. And he was far left and a very extreme one.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Gorgi Knootewoot @ May 07 2002,15:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They search the killers house and he was an environmental activist. And he was far left and a very extreme one.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, who can blame him? The damage to the ozone layer Fortuyn was causing had to be stopped.

[Supah 0]

Dont that make you wanna go out and kick a tree?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ May 07 2002,15:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dont that make you wanna go out and kick a tree?<span id='postcolor'>

Not if you're wearing open toed sandles, it doesn't!

[PitViper 0]

Political assassinations in Europe? enviromentalist? I heard Fortuyn was a moderate right winger.

Have the Bolsheviks risen? This time in green?

[The Toolman 1]

joking over an good nice man, which died only yesterday is just pure sickness,

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The area around was sealed off and combed by police, who later announced they had arrested the suspected killer - described only as a white Dutch male - although they did not speculate on any possible motive.<span id='postcolor'>

a white person. wow. so to all those ppl who said Arabs were behind shooting, go f!@# yourself.

The problem that supah explained is persistent in every society. The question is, what is the best way to deal with it.

What surprised me was that Supah's narration followed very close to Republican's rhetoric here in US during early and mid-90s.

During that time, rightwings accused immigrants of milking out Social security benefits and taking white ppl's jobs. The said fact is that these ppl tried to blame others for their failure. For example, California, with it's highest percentage of immigration besides Hawaii pays more in Federal Taxes for Social Security then recieving it. Mid-western states pay less and get more of SS taxes.

What happened after 97 or so is that as economy experienced good times, those rhetorics became extremely irrelevant. the lowest unemployment ever. and i'm pretty sure that amount of immigrants stayed constant or even went up due to expansion of special visas for IT workers from abroad.

These days, even moderate Republican do not get that much respect in California. Governor is a Democrat, LA mayor is a democrat, and AFAIK state assembly has more democrats. Even Bush administration tried to grant amnesty for illegal Hispanic immigrants, which was scuttled when other immigrants were leftout AND extreme right wing opposed it. One reason why Bush could not win easily was that he lost support of Hispanic voters, despite them being closer to Republican for preservation of home values.

so, how those this all connect with Dutch situation?

first, i've never been to Netherlands, so i can't tell how the situation is as a participant of that society. but i do know that they are quite liberal, where L24A once was compelled to start a thread claming that overly liberal policies are bringing society down.

What i see from the capitalistic capital of the world(ok..boob implants capital of the world) is that European countries, especially liberal ones are not being able to make large amount of economic progress that needs to be achieved in order to sustain their social policy. money does not grow on trees, and it has to be earned, through economic activity. The socialism states tend to have high taxes to support their program, which is quite evenly distributed to many ppl. But if that is overly used, some less than desirable things could happen. for example, in extreme cases, some French ppl tend to work 3 months, then quit and then get unemployment benefit for 3 months and then do the cycle again. Since unemployment benefit is higher, it kinda makes sense to them, i guess.

What happens from this is that government spending is now on rise, because many programs that require social equality(used loosely) cost government money, and that means either they have to adjust the amount of spending, or carry debt, or increase tax, or any combination of 3.

this will result in less programs, or economic setback. When this happens, ppl tend to look for reasons why it is that their country is in problems. and what is easier than blaming 'non-traditional' ppl? The folly of human nature is that something big, when it's product of a system that invovles many, if not nearly infinite,participants does something, average Joe cannot figure out what happened, and tried to get solution through tangible object.

Supah mentioned that there were kids assaulting dutch girls at stations and so on. well, that might be true, but on the other hand, white men travel to Thailand for sexual reasons too. One of the most effective rhetoric is to show how other race is assaulting your race's women. I'm not condoning those crimes, but you need to look at other sides too. There are many sexual assaults in any society, but in case where race-designation is involved, it tends to be the newcomers that are getting blamed, when old-times tend to do same thing at same frequency.

[hneel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ May 06 2002,14:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Can anyone confirm that they're now saying in Holland that the murderer is an environmental activist?<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.animalfreedom.org/english/reaction/volkertvandergraaf.html

The site is a bit overloaded at the moment...

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ May 07 2002,11:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denior: I invite you to come with me to Utrecht Central Train station and sit there for an evening. What ever the Cause of this behavior is it is very much real.<span id='postcolor'>

I can't deny that, if you go to Brussels and other 'big' cities (Belgium, Europe) and you go to the "bad" places (like some stations), then you'll see this kinda stuff too. Ppl calling you names and when you react on that, you're a racist.

I'm not a racist, hell, i hate racists (sry to all the racists on this forum ) But what you see in some places is not normal. I'll say more about this, but i don't have enough time...

[DarkLight 0]

I dunno how much shots were fired. But i know for sure that he was hit once above the left ear, once in the neck and once in the chest. Yes, i've also seen him dead on tv, and i also saw how he was being re... um... er... you know, when they push on your chest to get your heart beating again

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ May 07 2002,10:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even Bush administration tried to grant amnesty for illegal Hispanic immigrants, which was scuttled when other immigrants were leftout AND extreme right wing opposed it. One reason why Bush could not win easily was that he lost support of Hispanic voters, despite them being closer to Republican for preservation of home values.<span id='postcolor'>

ummm.. whats wrong with opposing illegal immigration? They need to wait in line with the rest of them and get naturalized like everyone else!

[ralphwiggum 6]

If you managed to stay in US for certain yrs without getting caught, sometimes they used to have amnesty. if you could prove that you worked like normal Joe during your illegal stay(mostly in lowpaying jobs), you could apply for citizenship, and get it.

Although those ppl could get citizenship through normal process, its really hard, due to strict regulations and time it takes. so as soon as they make it across border and get a job, they are helping US economy with low wage.

the problem is that Republicans abhor illegal immigrants, yet don't mind getting better off from them. Loreta Sanchez?

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ May 07 2002,18:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you managed to stay in US for certain yrs without getting caught, sometimes they used to have amnesty. if you could prove that you worked like normal Joe during your illegal stay(mostly in lowpaying jobs), you could apply for citizenship, and get it.<span id='postcolor'>

So you get awarded for sneaking into the country and acting like a citizen?

(hey, i've passed 400 posts )

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ May 07 2002,18:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ May 07 2002,18:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you managed to stay in US for certain yrs without getting caught, sometimes they used to have amnesty. if you could prove that you worked like normal Joe during your illegal stay(mostly in lowpaying jobs), you could apply for citizenship, and get it.<span id='postcolor'>

So you get awarded for sneaking into the country and acting like a citizen?

(hey, i've passed 400 posts )<span id='postcolor'>

congrats on 400th post!

no, you get awarded for lowering cost of human resources and doing dirty jobs no redneck would do.

[Supah 0]

Another sad fact about the young marrocans: They account for 2/4 % of the population and 25% of violent deaths mainly by gang related incidents. Im not saying we should kick em out of the country im saying we should have a long hard look what the hell is going on. A significant portion of our society is going down the drain and we are afraid to act upon that. Are we doing them a service by not intervening when they go wrong out of fear of being called racist? A "white" kid would have been arrested and had due process (which in the netherlands comes down to free therapy and an education, we dont jail minors at all). These kids arent taken out of that enviroment and consequently societies reluctance to act is doing them no good at all. If that is racist so be it. The dutch legal system is one geared towards teaching criminals to function in a society, something which for a kid doesnt even involve jail time. We are denying them something i feel by letting them run amock. You cross the line you get arrested, but not shoved in some cell to rot. Prisoners have allot of opportunities in this country, all to enable them to better themselves.

[hneel 0]

My 0.02€:

Some people called Pim Fortuyn extreme-right. But he was not. He himself didn't want to be compared with people like Haider, Le Pen, De Winter, etc. And if he would really be a racist, he wouldn't get so much support.

The facts are that there are real problems with immigrants in the netherlands and elsewhere. Until recently it has been a taboo to talk about them, because politicians were afraid to be called 'racist' or 'extreme-right'. As a result the politicians didn't do enough about these problems. Pim Fortuyn was one of the people who dared to talk about those problems. And because until then only the extreme right had mentioned these problems, he was labeled 'extreme right' by some people as a result.

I didn't agree with most of his ideas, as I am mostly left-wing and he was right-wing. But I respected him, also for removing the taboo on talking about immigrants, and making it possible again to talk about it openly.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (The Toolman @ May 07 2002,11:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont know which jerk, said to me to crawl back under the rock hence I came, well I got news for you, If you have a social life in Holland, you will find out that most Arabs arent that nice people you think they are, How many times I havent been beaten by an Turkish or Moroccan or even Iranish, boys, Or how many times they marked me, For only 2 weeks ago, they did it again, I rearranged the face of that asshole who said it, just to teach him, But then he didnt say anything, cause thats the way you should handle these guys, If they mark you, Kick the shit outta them,<span id='postcolor'>

I told you to crawl back, and deeming from your posts I was obviously right. This latest post of yours is really nothing but openly racist. You take your personal bad experience and generalize to an ethnic community. One of my best friends is from Iran and nothing of what you say applies to him.

Mods: Don't we have like some form of rules in these forums? Hint, hint.

I am actually very surprised that nobody except me and Ralph Wiggum have objected against this open racist. I hope that your silence doesn't mean that you agree with him since that would be very sad.

[Sith 0]

Dont worry denoir, I've been keeping an eye on him.

Toolman:

Pas op je woorden. Nog 1 zo'n post en je ligt er uit.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sith @ May 07 2002,22:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Toolman:

Pas op je woorden. Nog 1 zo'n post en je ligt er uit.<span id='postcolor'>

Testing my Dutch. Does it say something like "one more post like that you're out?"

I'd just like to wish all you Netherlanders out there a Zuider Zee.

I think I'm getting the hang of this.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sith @ May 07 2002,21:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dont worry denoir, I've been keeping an eye on him.<span id='postcolor'>

Good to know we are being watched

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pas op je woorden. Nog 1 zo'n post en je ligt er uit.<span id='postcolor'>

Let's see if I can translate this - Dutch writing is not so different from Swedish

Pas op = watch out, be careful

je woorden = your words

Nog 1 zo'n post = one more such post

en je ligt er uit = and I'll throw you out.

Basically loose translation: Choose your words carefully. One more of such posts and I'll ban you.

Was I right?

Supah and Longinius:

I am not saying that there are no problems with immigrants. We have those problems in Sweden too. It is a problem of integration to the local culture. I also think that when you move into a country you are obliged to respect its norms and culture.

However, I think that an attempt to solve the problem by refusing to recieve more people or even throwing people out is a very wrong one. Instead we should see what we can do for these people to adopt them to our society. And again there are a lot more immigrants that contribute to the society in a positve way then the trouble makers. The higher crime rates among immigrants is not because of religion, culture or race, but because of the living conditions and social status that we as a society have given them. They don't get the chance to be a real part of society, growing up in ghettos and getting the signals from society that 'you are just criminals'. Right wing politics only largen the breach between them and the rest of the society. It just gets worse.

There are (at least in Sweden) many immigrants that come from war torn countries. They need psychological help to work through their horrible experiences, but they get none. I think it is our responsibility as human beings and representatives for democracy to support the weak in the society. Regardless of culture, religion or skin color.

Edit: Damn you Avon, you managed to post a translation before me

[Casto 0]

Verry nice!!!!!

now try this:

ik krijg het gevoel dat de meeste mensen geen respect hebben voor wat er is gebeurd en daarom maar een beetje slappe grappen gaan posten in seruise topics.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Casto @ May 08 2002,00:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Verry nice!!!!!

now try this:

ik krijg het gevoel dat de meeste mensen geen respect hebben voor wat er is gebeurd en daarom maar een beetje slappe grappen gaan posten in seruise topics.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok a guess

Ik krijg het gevolen - hmm krijg sound like 'krig' which is war in Swedish, but I can't seem to get it to fit.

I would think that the translation is more like "I think that"

dat de meeste mensen geen respect hebben - that most of the people have no repect

voor wat er is gebeurd - "for what has happened", I think

en daarom maar een beetje slappe grappen gaan posten in seruise topics - and therefor post stupid grappen (jokes?) in serious topics.

So my guess would be for a final translation:"

I think that nmost people have no respect for what has happened and post lame jokes about serious topics. "

Was anything of that correct ?

[The Toolman 1]

Well, group moderator, Once again it looks like it that I am not permitted to speak freely about my opinion of Arabic people, Thats just sad, But everyone got to speak about Pim Fortuyn that he is an nazi,

Oftewel, Ik vind het heel jammer dat ik hier niet mijn eigen mening mag geven over het feit dat ik Arabische personen niet mag, ( Tenminste de meeste,) Maar dat wel iedereen vrijuit mag zeggen dat Pim Fortuyn een extreem-rechtse nazi is/was,

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (The Toolman @ May 08 2002,10:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, group moderator, Once again it looks like it that I am not permitted to speak freely about my opinion of Arabic people<span id='postcolor'>

Well... your opinion about Arabic people is racistic and racism is not tolerated here. If you say that you hate some ethnical group then it's considered as racism. Simple as that. Why do you hate all Arabics because of actions of a few? I know Arabic people and muslims and I must say those are one of the nicest people I've ever met.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ May 08 2002,01:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So my guess would be for a final translation:"

I think that nmost people have no respect for what has happened and post lame jokes about serious topics. "<span id='postcolor'>

MIJ bekentenis. MIJ most toestemmen welk MIJ zowaar don't weet voldoende item zowat Fortuyn's voorgeschiedenis voor uitdrukkelijk te onherroepelijk oinion.

Zodoende MIJ gissing I'm mank.