Dutch pim fortuyn killed

[Mora2 0]

I was reading and couldn´t resist to reply to this:

"Oh come on, you have to be fucking kidding me. What's next? Racism is agains the forum rules for a good reason because it is unfair generalisation and can offend people.

I can choose to call whoever I want, a nazi, a moron, a complete idiot or whatever I want. That is my opinion of one person and is in no way any violation of any rules.

My opinion: Fortuyn and his other right wing fellows like Le Pen = Nazi morons. "

firstly.... Fortuyn was not Nazi...he was Gay and he knows how pressures in some cases can damage person...i don´t know how old was he but surely has lived before the 80´s,and in that time Gays associations weren´t vey developed....

Secondly...don´t start arguing of why you are being moderated when you´ve gone crying to mods saying a person has posted (in your opinion) racist coments....cool... you can say he is a nazi...but don´t start bitching around and respect someone´s opinion instead of going to the mods and reminding them of the post....

Another quote from this guy...

"I won't shed any tears for him. The bad thing is that this might get sympathy votes for his party in the elections next week. On the long term.. one less Nazi in Europe is not too bad.

Doesn´t matter if he was nazi,communist or a fucking moron,he was a person and consequently has a life and nobody has the right to take of his life like a shit.....

[Mora2 0]

Depends on what you consider a nazi...up to date i´ve seen many definitions....

[hneel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (The Toolman @ May 07 2002,17:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At  ( Lagere school, hoe zeg je dat in het engels,) my old school, they used to give turks, lessons in how to talk turkish, I mean is that right? In a country where the Dutch dont speak a word arabic?<span id='postcolor'>

I guess it's wrong. As half of the turks here are actually kurdish. And half of the morrocans actually berber.

Seriously, I think that one mistake we made in the past is to not let the immigrant integrate. Encouriging them to keep speaking their own language instead of learning dutch is the wrong way.

[ralphwiggum 6]

AFAIK there are ppl claiming that Hess and Hitler were homosexuals.

anyway, back to topic

It are just angry and have their eye partially blinded.

What is racism? Racism is evaluating someone or something purely on the basis of race only, whether that is irelevant or not. A good example would be 'He's a French, so he must be horny.' Although French are known for their affection internationally, judging someone as horny just becuase that person is French is wrong.

The same goes for Nazi-Racist argument here. When Denoir called Pim a Nazi, was that racially motivated? I doubt that. Nazis were not a racial group, but more of political one. What I'm trying to convey here is that when Denoir called Pim a Nazi, he did not do it on basis of race, but by his political orientation. If you go out and call a German a Nazi becuase he is a German, that's racism. But if you call someone a Nazi becuase of his political views then it's not.

Many of you from Netherlands expressed immigration as the problem of their society and supported Pim's view that immigration is a main factor. And to certain degree it is true, since larger increase in population results in thinner distribution of resources.

However, you are also forgetting the fact that there are synergy effect. Synergy effect is when two different things become together and have more effect than just the two combined(i.e. 1+1=3). For example, here in California, You can see a lot of Mexican restuarants. Why do they exist? because there are numerous Hispanics in CA. but what those this have to do with synergy effect? Well, up until 90's there were hardly any chains of Mexican foods. However, as the explosion of Hispanic population took place, these places soon grew up faster, becoming equal status as then dominating-main-stream chains like MacDonals. With this growth in immigrant-oriented services and products, imcumbent chains had to do something. What happened? Mc Donalds experimenting Tacos and Burritos, Jack in the Box with Chicken Fajita Pita.

The result in immigration explosion resulted in(at least in fast food industry) new menus that defied traditional 'Hamburger-cheeseburger-soda-french fries' and it's slight deviations. This took a drastic turn and is now offering numerous item, making overall consumer wellfare greater.

So in short run, it seems like closing immigration is the best solution to 'problems' but you are letting go of future's better welfare.

One thing that Republicans in US learnt from CA is that you can always go for one ethinic groups concentrated voets by bashing other ethinc groups, but in future, it'll do you unrepairable damage.

To stay in power, then-governor of CA, (can't remember his name suddenly) used immigration issue as the main problem of US and CA;s problem. Everything from crimes to economic slowdown was blamed on immigration. What happened was that increase in LA crimes was attributed to rival gang killing between Hispanic and African gangs and portraying them as the main source of problem. The fact is that there are just as many white ppl doing it, but they do more of so called white-collar crimes. and it's also easier to catch lower status ppl and prosecute them, who happens to be in lower socio-economic status. Rich ppl get good lawyers money can buy to get their children out fo prison-sentence, while poor ppl have to contend with publlic defenders.

Anyway, most of the anti-immigration issues were defeated, and what Republicans claimed as demise of society turned out to be false as unemployment rate fell and so did crime rate.

So what does this have to do with Netherlands? I think many Dutch ppl are angry that they are not getting equal quality of life as they did before and is looking for a cause. And what is better way to guesstimate that immigrants are problem since they are more likely to commit crimes?

Would getting rid of immigration solve problem? hardly. this would imply that immmigration is not the main factor to be blamed. then what is? i'd say lack of economic growth. As someone mentioned in a few months ago, when you look at immigrants, there are

[hneel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ May 07 2002,14:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps i should speak Flemisch like we speak it in Belgium, i guess even the Dutch ppl wouldn't be able to understand that <span id='postcolor'>

Ek peizen dat ah hie vloms hah klappn, da'k da verzekerst waa kan verstohn.

[VXR 9]

The Dutch people know how he is and all outstanders do NOT

the papepr write it wrong he is not a nazi racist or anything else!

He only was saying what other people want to hear and what other politics dont dare to say but they think the same in their head but they are scared to get a bullet in their head too

but i repeat he was NOT a right-wing leader!

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (hneel @ May 08 2002,18:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ May 07 2002,14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps i should speak Flemisch like we speak it in Belgium, i guess even the Dutch ppl wouldn't be able to understand that <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

Ek peizen dat ah hie vloms hah klappn, da'k da verzekerst waa kan verstohn.   <span id='postcolor'>

Amai, da'k op dees forum nog eene zou tegekome da vlaams spreekt. Of teminste ne poging doet, ni slecht zenne ma ge praat wel e beeke west vlaams, das ni echt gelijk als wij ier prate zenne

ps: Ask for translation!

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Vixer @ May 08 2002,18:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Dutch people know how he is and all outstanders do NOT

the papepr write it wrong he is not a nazi racist or anything else!

He only was saying what other people want to hear and what other politics dont dare to say but they think the same in their head but they are scared to get a bullet in their head too

but i repeat he was NOT a right-wing leader!<span id='postcolor'>

I don't live in Holland but i live pretty close (vive la belgique! ) and i know what he was like (i've got cable tv so i can watch some dutch channels ), over here he isn't called a racist, of course there always are some ppl who think he is... But the way the media shows him here is good.

So i guess i know what i'm talking about!

[M.Elings 0]

So today when you have a plan to reduce unemployment in the health care and to reduce the criminal activities……. you are a racist   WEIRD

He didn't want to build concentration camp to execute people

In other words you can’t compare him with hitler

And please have some  respect for the dead

And darklight i can read your text in Flemisch although I'm dutch

[Guest]

6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mora2 @ May 08 2002,186)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was reading and couldn´t resist to reply to this:

"Oh come on, you have to be fucking kidding me. What's next? Racism is agains the forum rules for a good reason because it is unfair generalisation and can offend people.

I can choose to call whoever I want, a nazi, a moron, a complete idiot or whatever I want. That is my opinion of one person and is in no way any violation of any rules.

My opinion: Fortuyn and his other right wing fellows like Le Pen = Nazi morons. "

firstly.... Fortuyn was not Nazi...he was Gay and he knows how pressures in some cases can damage person...i don´t know how old was he but surely has lived before the 80´s,and in that time Gays associations weren´t vey developed....<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, not Nazi, if you are going to go by the book, but racist indeed. He was expelled from his former party for that. That's a fact and not an opinion of mine.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Secondly...don´t start arguing of why you are being moderated when you´ve gone crying to mods saying a person has posted (in your opinion) racist coments....cool... you can say he is a nazi...but don´t start bitching around and respect someone´s opinion instead of going to the mods and reminding them of the post....

<span id='postcolor'>

No, there is a difference between things considered politacally correct and not. Racism is not. How many of you called Le Pen a Nazi and asshole and other things in a thread a couple of weeks ago? Calling a politician names is not offending to anybody (except for the the politician himself perhaps).

I admit however that I underestimated how upset you Dutch people were over the incident. I could have been more careful about my first posts out of consideration.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

"I won't shed any tears for him. The bad thing is that this might get sympathy votes for his party in the elections next week. On the long term.. one less Nazi in Europe is not too bad.

Doesn´t matter if he was nazi,communist or a fucking moron,he was a person and consequently has a life and nobody has the right to take of his life like a shit.....<span id='postcolor'>

There are a lot of people that die every day that deserve more pity then a right wing politician getting whacked. I stand by my statement that I really couldn't care less. I understand that you might be upset about this, but you also have to understand that there are people who don't care. Of course he didn't deserve to die for having an opinion and it is not good for democracy ..... but I don't live in the Netherlands and to me he was just another right wing extremist who got shot. Big loss, not.

[theavonlady 2]

Pardon me for asking but could anyone list here exact quotes of what Fortuyn has stated in the past that is offensive or racist against anyone?

So far, I have found the following quotes:

1. "I think 16 million Dutch is enough, the country is full."

2. "For Muslims as a homosexual, I am less than a pig. I am proud that in the Netherlands I can come out for my homosexuality and I'd like to keep it that way."

3. "If I had the legal means then I would say: Not one more Muslim would be allowed in."

4. Fortuyn has dubbed Muslims "backward".

5. To drug addicts: "You want more? An overdose? Go ahead!"

BTW, Fortuyn's site is at http://www.pim-fortuyn.nl/ . But I've had enough Dutch translating for one day.

[Longinius 1]

"Ok, not Nazi, if you are going to go by the book, but racist indeed. He was expelled from his former party for that. That's a fact and not an opinion of mine."

Out of honest curiosity, can you provide any links to sites where this is proven or are you going by hear say? Cause hear say in the world of politics doesnt weight heavily in my book.

[Guest]

AP Article

Actually I read it on DN and SVD first, but I can't seem to find the articles.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"My policies are multiethnic and certainly not racist," he said. "I want to stop the influx of new immigrants. This way, we can give those who are already here the opportunity to completely integrate into our society."

He called Islam anti-secular and backward. "Islam separates people. They see us as inferior. Moroccan boys never steal from a Moroccan, did you ever notice that?" he told the newspaper De Volkskrant.

With much fanfare last year, Fortuyn was chosen to lead the Leefbar Nederland party, a national grouping of local "leefbar" parties. The name roughly translates to "Livable Netherlands."

But he was expelled from the party following the attack on Muslims in De Volkskrant. While some commentators wrote off his political fortunes, Fortuyn formed his own party and won a stunning 35 percent in local elections in Rotterdam two months ago.

<span id='postcolor'>

[hneel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ May 07 2002,19:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (hneel @ May 08 2002,18:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ May 07 2002,14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps i should speak Flemisch like we speak it in Belgium, i guess even the Dutch ppl wouldn't be able to understand that <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

Ek peizen dat ah hie vloms hah klappn, da'k da verzekerst waa kan verstohn.   <span id='postcolor'>

Amai, da'k op dees forum nog eene zou tegekome da vlaams spreekt. Of teminste ne poging doet, ni slecht zenne ma ge praat wel e beeke west vlaams, das ni echt gelijk als wij ier prate zenne

ps: Ask for translation!<span id='postcolor'>

Hehe, that's the advantage of having a girlfriend from Brugge.

And it's pretty close to my own native dialect: zeeuws.

[IceFire 0]

I'm sorry but I am really curious about what people have against this guy.

Sorry Denior, I think you are cool because you are in the military and know alot of military stuff. But I have to disagree with you here.

His old party kicked him out because he was a political risk. Not because of ideals.

I don't claim to know everything about what is happening to Holland and to the Dutch. But I do know that much of the streets in Holland are in turmoil.

It's a miserable condition. I am glad that I do not have to see it everyday as many native Dutchmen do.

It doesn't take any special sort of "gifted" sight to see what the matter is there.

Just go and spend a decent amount of time there. Maybe even just a few months or more preferably. You will see why Fortuyn is speaking something so many have thought for so long. The Dutch have had a problem with this for a very long time.

I am not even Dutch and I have thought to myself on several occasions long before that immigration is an issue that seriously needs to be dealt with in the Netherlands. It seems like a cancer that is eating away at Dutch society. For a long time Dutch liberalism has been letting this go on while making excuses and doing nothing.

Many dutchmen have thought this for long before Fortuyn entered the Political arena. And they must live with it everyday. It is almost sickening to look at it. It was not always like this.

It needs to be fixed. And quickly.

[IceFire 0]

By the way, just read my post that is reposted on page 10 for just an example of what some of the Dutch have to live with everyday in some of the bigger city part of towns.

[DestroyerX 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ May 08 2002,21:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By the way, just read my post that is reposted on page 10 for just an example of what some of the Dutch have to live with everyday in some of the bigger city part of towns.<span id='postcolor'>

It's true, I live in East of the country and I don't want to say that i'm Immigrant-free, but it's less here than Amsterdam, Rotterdam etc...

(Blue Province to the right, near Germany is where I live)

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ May 08 2002,21:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm sorry but I am really curious about what people have against this guy.<span id='postcolor'>

Have you read the quotes that Avon posted? Does that sound like a nice guy?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry Denior, I think you are cool because you are in the military and know alot of military stuff. But I have to disagree with you here.<span id='postcolor'>

Everybody is entiteled to their opinion. Oh, btw, I am not in the military now.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not even Dutch and I have thought to myself on several occasions long before that immigration is an issue that seriously needs to be dealt with in the Netherlands. <span id='postcolor'>

Hmm.. not Dutch, but you lived in the Netherlands? Doesn't that in some way classify you as an immigrant? Do you think that you contributed to the problems? I mean since according to you the immigrants are to blame.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It seems like a cancer that is eating away at Dutch society. For a long time Dutch liberalism has been letting this go on while making excuses and doing nothing.

<span id='postcolor'>

I think that the liberalism is the one thing that has made me always admire the Netherlands. I wish that we in Sweden had such an open society as the Dutch one. That is why I am very disappointed to hear about right wing trends in the country.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ May 08 2002,21:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not even Dutch and I have thought to myself on several occasions long before that immigration is an issue that seriously needs to be dealt with in the Netherlands. <span id='postcolor'>

Hmm.. not Dutch, but you lived in the Netherlands? Doesn't that in some way classify you as an immigrant? Do you think that you contributed to the problems? I mean since according to you the immigrants are to blame.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not saying that Fortuyn was right, i didn't like his "solutions" but he dared to call the problem by its name.

I'm pretty sure that DestroyerX isn't contributing to those problems!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I mean since according to you the immigrants are to blame.

<span id='postcolor'>

Immigrants aren't to blame, SOME immigrants are to blame. Don't blame a large group when this actually is about a group that is a lot smaller. It's like saying that all muslims are Taliban soldiers. Huuuuge BS, that is...

[IceFire 0]

I wouln't say that I was an immigrant in concept. I was not there to actually search for a living or a home. I was more of a visitor or even a traveler. But yeah, if you want to classify me as an immigrant, then yes, you can. That would apply.

I am not blaming ALL immigrants, just the ones that are causing the problems or refuse to accept their host countries cultural values.

And you can very clearly see the problems. I never caused any problems. I never mugged anyone or attacked anyone because of discrimination. I got along well with whoever I met there. The dutch folk there were very friendly to me.

If I were ever to decide to one day take up some a permanent residency in the Netherlands, I WOULD learn dutch. I would work. I would contribute to society. I would intermingle and allow myself to become absorbed into the cultural norms that are important to the dutch people.

I wouln't be trying to cause problems or create my own little neighborhoods to segregate. I would not contribute to any of the social/cultural problems.

Although I'll admit, it would be easier for me than maybe some people who come from an Arab country.

I already come from a western country, and have no specific cultural values that would really cause many problems. I practice no religion, for now. And I am fortunate enough to go to college in a country that offers a decent education for those who seek it.

The point still stands. When a problem arises from a group of people coming into a country and turning the place into a shithole. Something needs to be done about it.

[Guest]

9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ May 08 2002,239)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If I were ever to decide to one day take up some a permanent residency in the Netherlands, I WOULD learn dutch.  I would work.  I would contribute to society.  I would intermingle and allow myself to become absorbed into the cultural norms that are important to the dutch people.<span id='postcolor'>

My point is if Fortuyn and his likes came to power, you wouldn't be ALLOWED to take permanent residency. No matter if you could contribute to the society or not, they would not let you in. That is what is objectionable about these politics - normal people that can contribute to the society in a positive way are labeled as bad guys because they are immigrants.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The point still stands.  When a problem arises from a group of people coming into a country and turning the place into a shithole.  Something needs to be done about it.<span id='postcolor'>

I'll just quote myself on that one since I already said what I think about that:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not saying that there are no problems with immigrants. We have those problems in Sweden too. It is a problem of integration to the local culture. I also think that when you move into a country you are obliged to respect its norms and culture.

However, I think that an attempt to solve the problem by refusing to recieve more people or even throwing people out is a very wrong one. Instead we should see what we can do for these people to adopt them to our society. And again there are a lot more immigrants that contribute to the society in a positve way then the trouble makers. The higher crime rates among immigrants is not because of religion, culture or race, but because of the living conditions and social status that we as a society have given them. They don't get the chance to be a real part of society, growing up in ghettos and getting the signals from society that 'you are just criminals'. Right wing politics only largen the breach between them and the rest of the society. It just gets worse.

There are (at least in Sweden) many immigrants that come from war torn countries. They need psychological help to work through their horrible experiences, but they get none. I think it is our responsibility as human beings and representatives for democracy to support the weak in the society. Regardless of culture, religion or skin color.

<span id='postcolor'>

I'm now withdrawing from this discussion since it is generating too much bad blood. I think that I have made clear what my views on this topic are.

ps.

Gorgi:

I am sorry that I implied that you were a Nazi. You have said nothing that justifies it. I don't agree with your views but I lost my temper, and I shouldn't have.

[nordin dk 0]

There was a fight here, and I wasn't involved? Damn!

Avon, allow me to say, you are spamming like a maniac these days

I have two questions for all the dutch:

1) Could you please stop talking dutch here?

(Det er skide irriterende, og meget trćttende i lćngde. Man kunne fĺ mistanke om at i siger noget dĺrligt om os andre...)

2) How did you feel about Fortuyn before this happened, honestly. Very honestly.

[IceFire 0]

"I'm withdrawing from this discussion since it is generating too much bad blood"

Yeah, I can sympathize with that. Lol!  I'm outta here too.

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ May 09 2002,01:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I'm withdrawing from this discussion since it is generating too much bad blood"

Yeah, I can sympathize with that.  Lol!  I'm outta here too.<span id='postcolor'>

I wash my hands from this conversation too. This is why I don't like politics much. There are so many different opinions that these conversations eventually end up in a flamewar and such.

Now I'm preparing for my holiday. (hooray... can you call two days a proper holiday )

[Architeuthis 9]

Well, pesonely i don't understand what all the fuss is about. I mean, here in Holland the guy is a f*cking hero (well at least he is worshipped liked one), and now all the fortyn supporters, blame the murder on the left wing politicians. I find that absolutely ridicilous. I agree that the man had some good ideas, and that he wasn't a racist. He did however offeded the muslims here in Holland, by calling there religion backwards ( like someone stated earlier in this thread). It find it ''stupid" for anyone to murdered because of their thoughts or believes, but what i find absolutely rediculous, is the fact that he has became a marterer (is that the correct spelling )! However it will take time for someone else like Pim Fortuyn to rise, and i find a shame. Because regardless of his ideas, he did 'wake up' Dutch politics.

Well that thats my two cents.

Arch.