An annoying AI swimming problem

[kyfohatl 10]

Not long ago, I was discussing and issue I had with the AI in some other thread, and from the discussion I realized that many other people were experiencing diffculties with the same issue.

The problem is that the AI is not smart enough to go around things such as ponds, and swims across. In some cases they don't even bother crossing bridges over a river and simply swim across it. This causes the AI to loose all of its equipment and its particularly annoying. This is especially significant in maps/areas where there are lots of ponds (beaches are sometimes and issue as well) and causes the mission maker a lot of pain, forcing him to micromanage the AI. This of course is not only extra work, but also makes the AI too predictable and renders the usage of dynamic AI tools to randomize patrol paths and etc. nearly useless (like DAC or WICT).

Could you please adress this problem? I'm pretty sure its just an AI pathfinding problem. Maybe just diable equipment loss during swimming for the AI?

Thanks

[xxbbcc 6]

Equipment loss is one of the most annoying bugs in this game and BIS simply refuses to fix it. It is infuriating beyond belief. :(

[Herbal Influence 10]

Equipment loss is a feature not a bug. ;-)

Ever tried swimming fully armed?

So it's simply programmed that way to make it more realistic.

The pathfinding-problem arised in the first post might exist but it depends much on where the bridge is, whether it is blocked partly etc. etc.

[HyperU2 11]

Equipment loss is a feature not a bug. ;-)

Ever tried swimming fully armed?

Yeah we had to qualify that way once a year. It's not a feature to pretend a Marine can't cross a pond without losing all of his equipment.

Edited September 20, 2010 by HyperU2

[CarlGustaffa 4]

It's a feature, and it enables missions where you actually have to consider the tide - getting to Isla Del Victoria on Sahrani without using the bridge caused a problem with tides iirc (not sure if it was ever used though). It can be reversed via script in missions if you need to. If the AI had a desire to stay out of the water (unless specifically told to "go swim"), it wouldn't be a problem.

[NoRailgunner 0]

The issue is imho how the default AI should know:

1) that they should go around the pond/river

2) that they should find a place where they can cross pond/river(ford)

3) that they should use the shortest route aka pack their stuff and swim

Maybe it would make a bit more sense if the AI's are only dropping their equipment before swimming and keep only their pistols and all the light luggage? Of course it would be more authentic if the AI + players were able to pack their stuff in a floatable bag - cross the water and unpack it. :)

[sick1 13]

Even if this is a feature, who actually uses this? Please get rid of losing gear while swimming. I think we can all agree that it does nothing for gameplay or realism. At least give us a command to keep units form losing gear. Do Seal's lose gear? I make alot of campaigns using Seals, and I hate having to keep them away from water because the engine thinks they are grunts who can't keep gear. I'm sorry if I'm ranting, but this is one of my biggest problems with this game. You jump in water, and 1 minute later you have dropped your primary weapon and a most of your ammo. Come on are these soldiers that unreliable? And the argument about marines losing gear in water is false. Do force recon guys drop equipment when swimming to the shore? Hell no!

Edited September 20, 2010 by Sick1

[katipo66 94]

Ive just noticed they still do it in OA, and they dont even swim all the way across, they swim halfway and sit there, its not a feature its stupid... a feature would be that they actually used the bridge 5 metres next to them.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Ive just noticed they still do it in OA, and they dont even swim all the way across, they swim halfway and sit there, its not a feature its stupid... a feature would be that they actually used the bridge 5 metres next to them.

Absolutely. As long as AI is unable to cross bridges on foot (and obvisouly will never be with this engine), the swimming thing is a kind of corrective feature : so there is no need to punish the AI more by taken away its equipment. Realism musn't be that game breaking.

Edited September 20, 2010 by ProfTournesol

[CarlGustaffa 4]

You can script so that they get weapon back, or try the invisible walls method. Uhh, I actually haven't got to try this out for myself yet (shame on me). Not sure if they are still in OA standalone. Will they use bridge when all other options are blocked? Would be nice to know...

[sick1 13]

You can script so that they get weapon back, or try the invisible walls method. Uhh, I actually haven't got to try this out for myself yet (shame on me). Not sure if they are still in OA standalone. Will they use bridge when all other options are blocked? Would be nice to know...

Awesome thanks. Will give this a try.

[rübe 127]

You can script so that they get weapon back, or try the invisible walls method. Uhh, I actually haven't got to try this out for myself yet (shame on me). Not sure if they are still in OA standalone. Will they use bridge when all other options are blocked? Would be nice to know...

Don't get me wrong, but meeeehh... :/

There are certainly more interesting things to do in Arma2, than wasting time with such poor hacks. The AI needs to be fixed regarding pathfinding and water (ponds, rivers and bridges and everything else too). Until then, we'll have to avoid it and look for less problematic terrain to play in. End of the story.

But sure, if you guys have fun with such hacks and workarounds, go on and mess around with it!

:D

Edited September 21, 2010 by ruebe

[kyfohatl 10]

You can script so that they get weapon back, or try the invisible walls method. Uhh, I actually haven't got to try this out for myself yet (shame on me). Not sure if they are still in OA standalone. Will they use bridge when all other options are blocked? Would be nice to know...

Hmmmm.... some time ago I thought this was the solution to the problem, but someone told me that invisible walls work only for the player (can't remember the thread). Though I'm not sure if this is ture. Anyway, its just anoying having to waste time putting invisible walls all around the map, especially if your using a map with lots of water like Isla Duala (then it becomes a real pain) and just like how many people have said, its not particularly realistic for a marine loose all of his equipmnet by crossing some 3 meter long pond (which they shouldn't cross in the first place because going around it would be easier). I think it would be so much easier if we could just turn it off somehow. Its just game breaking "semi-realism".

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The thread I pointed to claims these invisible walls to block only AI, and not the player.

@ruebe: I agree of course. It's a workaround for a problem, not a solution. I just don't think the solution is to remove the feature (drop equipment in water) completely. The water and bridge stuff has been a major thorn since ever.

I'm not sure why bridges are still a problem, they had some improvements in Arma1 that seems to be completely gone. But water, and especially ponds, I see some (effective) coding issues with.

[desmondb 10]

Even if this is a feature, who actually uses this? Please get rid of losing gear while swimming. I think we can all agree that it does nothing for gameplay or realism. At least give us a command to keep units form losing gear. Do Seal's lose gear? I make alot of campaigns using Seals, and I hate having to keep them away from water because the engine thinks they are grunts who can't keep gear. I'm sorry if I'm ranting, but this is one of my biggest problems with this game. You jump in water, and 1 minute later you have dropped your primary weapon and a most of your ammo. Come on are these soldiers that unreliable? And the argument about marines losing gear in water is false. Do force recon guys drop equipment when swimming to the shore? Hell no!

Exactly, the whole losing your gear when you swim is retarded, especially when the ARMA II story is supposed to be depict a unit whose real life counterparts spends a fair amount of their time IN THE WATER....

[AnimalMother92 10]

marine:

–adjective

1.

Of or pertaining to the sea; existing in or produced by the sea: Marine vegetation.

2.

Pertaining to navigation or shipping; nautical; naval; maritime.

3.

Serving on shipboard, as soldiers.

4.

Of or belonging to the marines.

5.

Adapted for use at sea: A marine barometer.

Not a feature..

FPDR

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Exactly, the whole losing your gear when you swim is retarded, especially when the ARMA II story is supposed to be depict a unit whose real life counterparts spends a fair amount of their time IN THE WATER....

1) USMC are not water units, they do amphibious landings.

2) Define fair amount of time in the water. Getting wet is not the same as having to swim. We're still allowed some swim time, before equipment is dropped - it's not immediate.

3) SEALS on the other hand, are water units, but they are not in the game.

4) It's easy to script to fix it if you don't want it.

5) Even if USMC were water units, they're only one of many factions in the game. And they're not even present at all in standalone OA.

The only thing making it a real problem is the AIs pathfinding. If we make poor decisions (and that have been key in some missions) we get punished for it. It's supposed to be a thinking mans game, not an action shooter.

[kyfohatl 10]

@CarlGustaffa: Yeah... I see your point. Maybe swiming for ever with lots of equipment is not particularly realistic, but surely when marines swim across a 2 meter pond (that is barely deep enough for them to swim across anyway), they don't loose all of their equipment? And their supposed to be trained hardy soldiers...

4) It's easy to script to fix it if you don't want it.

Really??? If so, could you please provide a script for it? It would be very useful for me (I would do it myself if I knew how to, but I've been learning scripting for a while and I havent gotten very far).

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@CarlGustaffa: Yeah... I see your point. Maybe swiming for ever with lots of equipment is not particularly realistic, but surely when marines swim across a 2 meter pond (that is barely deep enough for them to swim across anyway), they don't loose all of their equipment? And their supposed to be trained hardy soldiers...

Without having tested, I believe 2 meters is possible without causing a drop. Also check images, they go to rather extreme lengths to not get their equipment wet. Anything from floatation devices via tucking in packs in a drypack to holding weapon above head while crossing.

Really??? If so, could you please provide a script for it? It would be very useful for me (I would do it myself if I knew how to, but I've been learning scripting for a while and I havent gotten very far).

No time, but I would try something along these lines:

1. While in water, do a do while where you update your primary weapon. Remember delay.

2. Exit loop if loose your weapon or is no longer in water.

3. Skip the rest if you didn't loose the weapon.

4. Tag the "weaponholder" near your position (store its position). Use a minimum distance check to avoid taking other peoples equipment.

5. Waituntil player is no longer in swimming animation.

6. Add back contents (using action command) of weapon container at stored location. Not sure about these actions though.

Or check ofpec for such scripts, I'm pretty sure they exist in some way.

[kireta21 13]

So we have feature which is anoying, unrealistic, useless mission-wise, cause unesesary problems, and on top of that can't be turned off. But yeah, it's not a bug:p.

Idea of soldiers dropping ocasionally their stuff when swiming isn't bad by itself, but their chance to dropping gear should be realistic aswell. It's not like troops come out of water with nothing but uniform. Actually loosing 5-10 pieces of equipement for entire platoon would be more accurate. Soldiers loose their gear mostly because they didn't check it properly before entering water, so they have loose helmet, open pounch etc. And it's unlikely as hell for soldier to lose his weapon. And if he would indeed drop his gun, he would IMIDIATELY report it to his squad leader. Or dive for it.

Since ArmA we can swim. So what if we don't, because entering water is suicidal, as we come out with no weapon or ammo.

To sum it up: Either BIS should remove it, fix it or make it optional, possible to disable completely by a single line in mission editor. Because for now this useless-but-cool feature is only useless-and-annoying.

[HyperU2 11]

Yeah, I'd rather just drown.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I take it you don't play seagull games much? When you mess up there, or others causes you to mess up, you loose the weapon. So what? Stay out of sight until you can pick up a replacement weapon from the enemy. If everyone messes up (tragic accidents do happen sometimes) - restart the mission.

@boota:

What's the point of even having water if there are no penalties or dangers to it? If I have a water path obstacle, I most certainly don't want players to just swim across for the added stealth. Use boats! And don't eject over water!

Again, there is nothing suicidal about loosing weapons unless you're; playing alone, have no AI company, didn't plan to counter it in your own mission (add weapon crates in some locations), or is too lazy to walk back to base or steal a vehicle and get back. Loosing weapons != certain death unless you want to. I've played hardcore MP games myself where I dropped all weapons. Guess what, the buddies I played with was team players and they made it an objective to get replacements (enemy weapons), while we were told to stay back. That was actually fun. Great fun.

Water is not a problem for players, only for AI who doesn't recognize it's dangers.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Water is not a problem for players, only for AI who doesn't recognize it's dangers.

So it's a problem though. Unless you play PvP only.

[kireta21 13]

That's why I suggest to make it optional, easy to disable, or - even better - adjustable, as AI bravery. Feature itself is not wrong, but I think you do agree, chance for loosing equipement is just rudiculus. As for me it gives more trouble than it's worth.

[HyperU2 11]

It's not just a game breaker for friendly AI, I've played some Domi on Duala where I encounter about 25% of the OPFOR without weapons. Just depends on how close the town they're defending is to a the water.