NVGs

[Baz 0]

anyone else notice that its bloody hard to see squat with NVGs... I get killed by bad guy AI even tho they don't have NVG and I do.

Its like everything kinda masks itself in the "green" i mean its really hard to distinguish a rock from a man or something... I know there is thermal sights too... But in most night missions you have NVG and some type of SCAR rifle, usually with a eotech...

[ryguy 10]

You're probably either right-click zooming (which darkens the NVG) or trying to look at range with them. NVG only works at range if the scope is equipped with it.

[Baz 0]

no I mean the green hue of the NVG seems to mask things and its hard to identify targets from the environment because the green hue seems to blend an enemy soldier to match the surrounding environment

[ryguy 10]

That's just a real-world limitation. There actually are color NVGs being developed. You could also use FLIR, although they aren't around in goggle form (yet).

[Baz 0]

most notably the BIS single player mission where you are tasked with clearing a town as a SF team and you have NVG and laser on weapon... Thats where I noticed it the most, its damn hard to identify a human form from 100m or so, even more damn hard if its prone and lying in brush and vegitation...

[lugiahua 26]

maybe you should change the graphic setting, because I do not suffer the same problem even I didn't use any NVG addons.

[PuFu 4591]

what is your point here?

That the NVGs should pinpoint the enemy? as ryguy said already, the real life counterpart behaves very similar to the way A2 version is represented

---------- Post added at 04:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 AM ----------

That's just a real-world limitation. There actually are color NVGs being developed. You could also use FLIR, although they aren't around in goggle form (yet).

yes they do: 10k $ price tag

[Baz 0]

well it just seems counter intuitive to me that an enemy soldier without NVG at night can shoot and kill me faster than i can identify he is actually there because of the quirky BIS NVGs

[maddogx 13]

well it just seems counter intuitive to me that an enemy soldier without NVG at night can shoot and kill me faster than i can identify he is actually there because of the quirky BIS NVGs

Don't know what you're on about... the NVGs are fine, and the AI are blind as shit at night. Of course, if you're giving your position away by shooting, you might want to stay in cover and reposition after firing. Also, stay away from lamp posts, flashlights and vehicle headlights, because they will light you up like a christmas tree.

As for the NVGs, if you're having trouble spotting soldiers, I would assume that something is wrong either with your eyes or your settings. The only trouble I ever have is friend-or-foe recognition at long range.

Perhaps you would like to post an example screenshot of the "quirky" NVGs, so people can see what you are talking about.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i think that the problem with the NVGs is on the game's HDR which is just horrible; in the ArmA2 i'd when to the game's config and edited it to force the HDR to 16 (it was set to 8 previously) it didn't fixed it at all... but made it a bit better (still not enought) i'd also changed the arma2.config setting to Read Only, for don't let the game set it back to 8; as far as i know that's the only way of make it better, but the whole lighs & shadows thing on the ArmA2 aswell as in the OA/CO is totaly screwed up imo. Let's C ya

[nodunit 397]

Operation Arrowheads NVG's are a far step above Arma2's in terms of HDR, you can actually use them more..though it's not so unrealistic, in fact the NVG's we have ingame are a godsend compared to most NVG's out there, higher resolution imagery for calrity in image, substantially less effected by lighting conditions IE it glares less and you need far less light than is actually necessary for it to work.

Well this is neat.

Edited September 13, 2010 by NodUnit

[AnimalMother92 10]

yes they do: 10k $ price tag

those...are...so...awesome. DO WANT

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The problem isn't about the NVG (which actually are far better than irl), but about the enemy being able to target and track a known enemy in the dark while we (on equal terms, no NVGs) are blind as bats. My enemy won't shoot in the "general direction" or wait for flashes to aim at, he will continuously deliver accurate fire on a point target.

Making the AI see at night (in terms of spotting ability) using flares isn't trivial to do either. First you have to equip them with flares. Then you have to make them use the flares "the correct way" (not easy). And finally you have to add extra #lightpoint to the flares to aid the AI (only possible in a dedicated server environment, as you don't want that extra light to show up on clients, not for GL based flares anyways).

So even when I run with very low AI capabilities, they will have problems spotting me sure, but once spotted I'm generally screwed. In my Domino edit, I'm turning the whole AO into suppressive mode while their are shelling us (to make the rounds count), and even machineguns on the other side of the valley (which I can't even see with 2000m VD), their position data of me seems waaay too accurate - in the dark :o

So to me, this is a problem with the engine and/or mission, not the equipment.

@NodUnit: Loved that video and those light filters. Notice how they say "now we can identify a vehicle at 400 meters". Compare that to the capabilities we have in the game - without such filters :D

[xman1 10]

Not so true. I was using some PVS-7's over labor day weekend in one of our National Forests over here and they are 'WAY' better irl than the ones in ARMA 2.

However, ARMA 2's Operation Arrowhead seem to have improved things. The jury is still out on that, so I will report back later.

-X

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The only improvement is not reacting anymore to resizing star blobs and not being able to use NVGs with scoped weapons. In the game we have double the field of view compared to the real ones, AND is able to use any sights other than scopes. We also get infinite contrast and reach compared to the real thing. Also found out that "harassment by illumination" no longer works - you can't use flares to wash out the device in the game. And then naturally we won't get to experience the encumbrance of it in the game.

So please elaborate "what part" of the real life PVS-7 you think was better in real life compared to the game. With no "real limitations" to it possible, I don't mind some artificial ones. Battlefield illumination is still used today for a reason - you're not a good soldier trying to fight with NVGs.

[xman1 10]

The only improvement is not reacting anymore to resizing star blobs and not being able to use NVGs with scoped weapons. In the game we have double the field of view compared to the real ones, AND is able to use any sights other than scopes. We also get infinite contrast and reach compared to the real thing. Also found out that "harassment by illumination" no longer works - you can't use flares to wash out the device in the game. And then naturally we won't get to experience the encumbrance of it in the game.

So please elaborate "what part" of the real life PVS-7 you think was better in real life compared to the game. With no "real limitations" to it possible, I don't mind some artificial ones. Battlefield illumination is still used today for a reason - you're not a good soldier trying to fight with NVGs.

Simple - the detail you can see. And the brightness is much better.

Also, the field of vision is not off like you say. You have a good field of vision. The game is fairly accurate in my opinion.

Washout is not as big an issue as you would think since I used it around a camp fire without issue. Flashlights are not a problem either. Flares, yeah, that might screw up a bit more, but it would need to be right next to you. A flare at any distance would easily be ignored.

We also had IR strobes, and attached a strobe to the dog and made him take off. Was very easy to track the dog wherever it went in total darkness. These strobes have an auto brightness so that it doesn't over illuminate depending on the light level.

I did notice some sparkling or flashing against pine trees. Kind of weird looking.

Distance - yes, they become washed out at extreme distance, but it is a lot farther than you think. You can still see, just not in the detail you would like.

What else you want to know?

-X

PS. My only thing - it kills your nightvision when looking in these things. You have to totally let your eyes re-adjust when you take them off. They are that bright.

Edited September 14, 2010 by xman1

[Smurf 12]

Well, when Im bored at the editor, I laod the desert map, set time to 2AM or something, place a squad of pijamas guys and make myself a SF guy.

Is kind of funny to shoot the light near the building and "play" with the enemies while using a SD pistol and NV googles. They get very close without detecting me. Firing a SD rifle = fail, they "see" or hear you easily.

Dunno if I was using ZeusAI thought.

Also, don´t know if it is realistic, but those shoped shots from TF87 guys really looks nice:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1718922&postcount=1164

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Simple - the detail you can see. And the brightness is much better.

I'm not getting this. From what I've seen they're brighter but also a lot flatter than we have. Ours have way too much contrast, can see forever with impeccable detail, and show no sparkling (apparently not the same issue with modern devices as they were before). But not bright enough? I think they are too bright, but I'll live with it as a "downgrade to normal vision", sort of an artificial penalty.

Also, the field of vision is not off like you say. You have a good field of vision. The game is fairly accurate in my opinion.

PVS-7 is listed with a FOV of 40°. Try in the game to put NVGs on and open your compass. Face north. Pick an object at the edge of the limiting circle. Face towards it. What's the reading on the compass? It should say about 40-45°. That gives you a FOV of 80-90°. Now try the same zoomed in. I'm getting a FOV of about 40°, the same as the PVS-7 has. Note that I haven't tried them myself, so maybe you're right. But I have friends that have tried them and find the limited FOV extremely awkward (not sure it was PVS-7 though). You're not looking in the way you walk, you're looking down at your feet to avoid stepping on twigs etc (if in danger zone).

Washout is not as big an issue as you would think since I used it around a camp fire without issue. Flashlights are not a problem either. Flares, yeah, that might screw up a bit more, but it would need to be right next to you. A flare at any distance would easily be ignored.

Depending on the color, a GL based flare burns at 20.000-50.000 candela (or thereabouts). A 155mm burns at 1.000.000 while a M119 105mm ir around 500.000-750.000. GL based doesn't gain the same altitudes though. This needs to be faked in game using #lightpoints, which sadly doesn't have the desired washout effect on our NVG devices.

The default artillery and mortar illumination shells are greatly underpowered. Deliberately causing washouts would be a nice countertactics for OPFOR to use. Put the flares behind own forces, and low (generally not advised to do that) - it is not something you would easily ignore if you were using NVGs :) Constantly readjusting night sight or looking away makes you fight worse, so a valid tactic against a force heavily utilizing NVGs.

Distance - yes, they become washed out at extreme distance, but it is a lot farther than you think. You can still see, just not in the detail you would like.

Yes you can see, but contrast is greatly reduced with distance, unlike in the game where it remains the same.

PS. My only thing - it kills your nightvision when looking in these things. You have to totally let your eyes re-adjust when you take them off. They are that bright.

Convenient that it takes only a few seconds in the game to readjust ones vision then ;) I was star gazing in my youth, and my experience is that it takes 15-30 minutes to get good night vision back after being exposed to a lightsource.

[ajsarge 10]

About the best thing they could do right now is to force zoom when wearing NVGs, but limit the screen down to 2/3 the current size. As well, but less likely, is to have the NVG portion take up a zoomed in part, while the rest is standard zoom without NVG (but non-adjusted). Besides that, it all seems to be about the same, if not better than RL.

[xman1 10]

Convenient that it takes only a few seconds in the game to readjust ones vision then ;) I was star gazing in my youth, and my experience is that it takes 15-30 minutes to get good night vision back after being exposed to a lightsource.

Now there is something I forgot to mention. The stars! THE STARS! Those things light up the stars in a way you can only imagine! Imagine no light pollution from a city, and couple that with massive brightness increase on these things! You can see things you would never hope to see with the naked eye! If you are into Astronomy, you need a set of these things!

Of course, the $4K price tag is a bit of a put off vs a nice big Newtonian.... You could buy a fully decked out 16" Newtonian for that price with a ton of lenses to boot.

-X