When realism becomes a pain in the ass!

[kyfohatl 10]

Hi, I just wanted to know if there was a way (or an addon) to disable euipment loss when swimming in water (sorry, I have very little scripting skills). The AI seems to completely ignore this feuture and swim right across ponds if they are in the way, and of course before getting out on the other end loose all of its euipment. By using the search tool I found out that it is an AI pathfinding problem, where even if there is a brigde, it wont bothe crossing it and swim straight across water. This is especially annoying on Islands which have alot of rivers/lakes. Please help, without this feuture, making a mission would become so much easier (will greatly reduce the number of waypoints in some of my mission).

This is not to discuss wether or not this feuture is realistic or not, since quite frankly I have no idea.

BY THE WAY: Another way to get around this when making a mission would be to place invisible barriers around ponds/lakes. Does anyone know how to do that?

Oh, and I hae ARMA 2 standalone (not OA).

Thanks.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I've seen scripted solutions to prevent it. I don't mind them loosing equipment, but I do mind them valuing staying in formation higher than staying out of the water in the first place. I've scrapped more than one missions due to not being able to deal with the water (or bridge, I might add) issue.

[sparks50 0]

This wont help you, I just have a comment: You cant blame it on realism (title) when its only someones take on realism, which clearly is not ideal.

Mission editing:

http://forums.bistudio.com/forumdisplay.php?f=93

[polar bear 10]

I've seen scripted solutions to prevent it. I don't mind them loosing equipment, but I do mind them valuing staying in formation higher than staying out of the water in the first place. I've scrapped more than one missions due to not being able to deal with the water (or bridge, I might add) issue.

Yeah, a few weeks ago I tried bringing a squad with some AT soldiers along a beach to get into town undetected so I could flank the armor in the center of town. Of course by the time I got there the AT soldiers had dropped their launchers in the lake. Oops!

[rübe 127]

I've scrapped more than one missions due to not being able to deal with the water (or bridge, I might add) issue.

:(

Tell me about it..

:mad:

This friggin ponds problem is there since the beginning of Arma2 and has never been touched... And it's not only that a lot of the most beautiful/interesting places can't be used for missions (Pobeda Dam anyone?), it's also a nasty problem for totally random missions. Haven't you ever spawned a random base right in the middle of a pond, because isFlatEmpty thought it would be a great idea to do so? :936:

Is it really so hard to tell the AI to not walk/drive into them?

It's about time.

[cjph 0]

Yeah, a few weeks ago I tried bringing a squad with some AT soldiers along a beach to get into town undetected so I could flank the armor in the center of town. Of course by the time I got there the AT soldiers had dropped their launchers in the lake. Oops!

This same thing happened to me some time ago in Arma2, though I also lost a few of the AI soldiers as well (so might have been fixed in newer patches/betas). Good job I have not lost all my Rambo skills and cleared the town single handed. ;)

[kyfohatl 10]

I've scrapped more than one missions due to not being able to deal with the water (or bridge, I might add) issue.

Same here. At one time I remember spending lots of time in making this dynamic mission only to realize that it was made right over a set of ponds. I ended up restarting the whole thing :mad:.

I personally hate having to "babysit" the AI too much. I usually just give it very general direction, like often placing just one "seek and destroy" waypoint for an AI squad for the whole mission. This ususally makes the AI less pridictable than when you specifically define a tight path for it. Anyway, I swear I saw someone explaining how to place an invisible boundry somewhere in the forum, though I seem to be unable to find it. Can anyone help with that? Because if it is too hard to improve the AI pathfinding or remove the equipment loss feuture, then I could use this trick.

You cant blame it on realism (title) when its only someones take on realism, which clearly is not ideal.

Maybe... As I said, I have no Idea. I thought that the dev team had done a good amount of research on the issue and had a solid background before adding it as a "realism" feuture, so I assumed that it was realistic, though some people on the forum think its actually unrealistic :confused:.

[Nightrain 10]

Invisible walls only work for the player I think.

It is quite an annoying issue, especially cause you just can't store the ammo/guns in hte crrc or Rhib like you can a truck.

Also hated it when you get shot down, eject and fall into water. Thank god gdt made a steerable parachute mod.

[kremator 1065]

I always swim with 50kg of equipment!

[bushlurker 46]

Tho I suspect this thread will be griefed by the Mods for "not having a descriptive title", I'll briefly chip in on the discussion since it's a valid point that deserves some attention from the Devs at some point...

I too have had endless grief with ponds, mainly because I've been making the Highlands of Scotland terrain, which, of course, in order to even be halfway authentic, requires about 30 inland "lochs" (Lakes in english ;))... and we ain't talking little "ponds" either... Loch Tay, for example, is over 1.5km x 600m - all made with the damned pond object!

(theres a small corner of loch tay pictured in one of my sig images - apparently it's where the loch ness monster goes on holiday ;))

Needless to say the AI are having a great time failing to recognise them as water.....

I'm not sure if there is an current effective solution... invisible walls don't seem to deter the AI... Old Bear's trick of having either a road or even a "path" skirt around each stretch of water helps a little - when the AI are feeling all safe and casual, they occasionally follow the path.... vehicles occasionally too...

Most of the time however, its just a depression in the landscape to them, a legitimate direction to take - hampered only by a flat plane they can't see which causes the swimming animation to kick in... like you guys describe... lots of swimming and lost kit...

It's not quite so bad with bridges - the AI know what a bridge is - half the "bridge crossing dodginess" is due to bad positioning - though admittedly, as I've experimented further with that, I've found that the other half of the "bridge crossing craziness" is down to the AI routines themselves, and how the AI follow each other and order themselves as a group... See This Post for some further thoughts on this...

With the pond object its a similar situation... I don't think it's entirely down to the object, or the AI, but a bit of both...

Theres one parameter to do with the object - "isWater=1"... I haven't fooled with this yet, but I believe thats what triggers the AI into swimming... theoretically "isWater=0" might stop the swimming effect... they may simply walk thru the object like its not there - walk underwater in effect... And I think this is the core of the problem - the AI don't treat or recognise the "pond object" as "sea" - they know what "sea" is, but a "pond" is just a flat plane who's only effect is to trigger the "swimming animation"...

I'm no expert, so I could be totally wrong in all of the above (except for the bridges bit), and I've no real idea how to "fix" things I'm afraid...

I was really hoping there'd be an effective pond object in OA - in fact, that was my first question on release day, before I got my own copy... sadly from what I see it's much the same deal... probably wasn't a major priority...

So it seems that for the moment, ponds are still purely a cosmetic thing - a shame, cause done well they look just lovely (Pobeda Dam, for example), but until the AI are given a better understanding of how to behave around them, they're still the same old gameplay-disaster-waiting-to-happen... :(

I'd be wonderful if the Devs come up with a more elegant fix, but - in the meantime - a simple addon, maybe in the "Proper" style, which simply disables kit-dropping when swimming may not be authentic, but would at least ensure that meantime, the AI arrive at their waypoints fully equipped! I requested just such an addon once in the Addons Request Thread, where the suggestion promptly sank without response, so don't hold your breath on that one - I'd make one myself, if I had even the vaguest idea how to !

B

Edited August 12, 2010 by Bushlurker

[polar bear 10]

I'm not really sure they know what sea is. As I mentioned up thread I was running along the beach in "wedge" formation with the AI fanned out behind me. Some of them decided to run so far out to sea that they swam and lost their kit--of course, it was the AT soldiers who decided to do that and when we finally got to where the tanks were at banging their empty fists on the hull of the enemy tank did not prove effective..

I suspect the only reason they don't run out to sea the rest of the time is that there is nothing out there to attract them in that direction, but put them into formation and run on the beach and they happily swim.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Polar Bear

[jakerod 254]

At least you're men don't die like they used to.

[Nightrain 10]

At least you're men don't die like they used to.

Yeah, I remember in OFP if you got shot down over water and had to eject you were done and dead. :eek:

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Actually a middle way would be nice. Swim for too long and you eventually drown. Sounds reasonable to me.

Anyone seen (one of?) the SCUD side missions in Domination? It's by a pond. One time I got there only two enemies had weapons, rest was dropped in pond.

[polar bear 10]

Maybe whether you drop your gear should depend on how far you swim, how heavy it is, and whether you've stashed it in your backpack. In real life you can swim short distances with some pretty heavy gear, at least if you're trained. I've swum loaded down with some pretty heavy scuba weights, or dragging an anchor. It tires you out quickly but you can do it.

Start swiming with a rifle in your hands and yes it's going straight to the bottom but not necessarily one in a sling.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Polar Bear

[santafee 10]

i remember having this issue in a mission on the dam in arma2.

its REALLY time to fix that the AI is not using bridges and running into water instead like allways.

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

Its probably a unwanted bug. Hopefully it will be fixed in the future.

I always swim with 50kg of equipment!

Maybe not at +50kg, but in average combat gear whit a recon pack its actually fully possible in real life, but you need specialist equipment to do it.

Namely a trash bag. You put your gear in the trash bag while you make sure it has enough air inside before closing.

Now you swim all "natural", with your weapon on your back, over the lake using the trash bag, full of air and gear, as buoyancy.

[johncage 30]

so it's realistic to lose all your equipment after swimming the length of a small pond? right...

[kyfohatl 10]

Why should BIS fix something that is a feature, not a bug.

I'm pretty sure there was a script for ArmA which fixed that "problem" for people who like to swim with an M240 for 2 hours. Chances are good the solution still works in ArmA2. (quote from W0LLe; sorry, don't know how to use the quote tool properly!)

I found this as I was searching for a solution to this problem. Honestly, I think that this equipment loss is not a feature, it is a problem. I mean, even if it was added intentionally, when you AI's pathfinding is uable to prevent the AI from swimming across a small pond when it may be completely unesessary and loosing all of its equipment, it becomes a problem not a feature. Also, the AI is a very important part of this game and I'd say on average people spend more time playing with the AI than they do with other players and a pathfinding problem like this is really annoying.

Besides, the 2 hour thing doesn't make sense at all. If you were to loose some of your equipment after swimming for a long time; that would make sense. But alot of the time you are just swimming across a small pond and just like zachanscom said, it doesn't make any sense to loose all of your equipment.

For those of you interested in seeing the rest of the discussion of the thread I found, here it is: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=96382&highlight=equipment+loss+swim

[HyperU2 11]

I'd rather drown, it's fairly pointless (and unrealistic) to lose gear on a short swim.

[rübe 127]

Honestly, I think that this equipment loss is not a feature, it is a problem.

That units lose their weapons in water is a design decision. Sure, you may argue about that, and maybe there should be a unit class that does not lose any equipment (little config entry) in water, aslong as they're equipped with the right tools/weapons. And that's maybe something for a future expansion, who knows?

Still, this is not the real problem (if any at all). It's all about pathfinding - once again. :rolleyes:

[kyfohatl 10]

That units lose their weapons in water is a design decision. Sure, you may argue about that, and maybe there should be a unit class that does not lose any equipment (little config entry) in water, aslong as they're equipped with the right tools/weapons. And that's maybe something for a future expansion, who knows?

Still, this is not the real problem (if any at all). It's all about pathfinding - once again. :rolleyes:

That's kind of what I meant :rolleyes:. As I said, the equipment loss feature, despite being intentional, is a problem because of AI's pathfinding (it doesn't undrestand that it can go around the pond).

[ACF 0]

The swim feature seems to have become a bug - if they can swim, they will. There are few occasions when you need units to swim.

Would a better solution just be to make all land classes avoid [deep] water by default, much like OFP IIRC? How about a 'CanSwim' parameter, configurable but defaulting to 0 (even for amphibious vehicles?) and 1 for aircrew and players? If a mission needs swimming, it can be controlled; if it doesn't, the designer is not forced to try to micromanage AI.