Players should NEVER have to install add-ons

[polar bear 10]

One of the things holding back wider market embrace of Arma is the (perceived) difficulty in setting up the game and learning the controls. I recommend that BI look at any options that make the game more user friendly to the regular joe gamer who wants to try it out.

Here is one:

Players should NEVER have to install add-ons. If they join a server which uses an add-on they do not have, then the game should download and automatically install the add-on for them. They shouldn't even have to think about it.

Obviously there are a few requirements around this to make it workable:

1. If they have already downloaded the add-on before at another server it should be cached and they should not have to download it again

2. The game should verify signatures of all downloaded add-ons that are approved using some centrally controlled PK, either by BI, or by a user community group set up to approve add-ons for automatic install

3. They may have multiple versions of the same add-on downloaded, as different servers may require different versions.

As a bonus there should be a server-side ability to enforce purity:

4. BattleEye upgraded to ensure that no add-ons are running on the client side other than those required by the server

This will simplify the game play experience for everyone, improve the fairness of the game by ensuring everyone plays with the same setup, reduce cheating, and improve quality.

[SPC.Spets 21]

some addons are too huge, ACE2 for example or some sound fx mod and updated constantly

is not that hard to install addons, in fact is a piece of cake that even my boy of 10 yo can do. Read the "Readme" how to install

You also have Six Updater and addon sync by yoma to donwload and update to the last version

[polar bear 10]

Yeah some of the add-ons are huge but what matter is that?

Which is worse:

1. Having the game automatically DL a huge add-on and automatically install it

2. Having to manually download a huge add-on yourself and manually install it yourself, while searching the web for instructions and trying to figure out how to do that and where it goes

Provide a cancel button for people to quit and not join that server if they're unwilling to wait at that moment, and a reasonable progress bar estimate of how long it's going to take--but in no case is it in any way better to have to do manual work when it could be done for you by a computer.

There is a big difference to me between my computer doing a few hours of work and me doing a few hours of work. Especially if it's WORK--I buy games to kick back and relax and enjoy myself, I do enough work at work!

Edited August 6, 2010 by Polar Bear

[pez2k 10]

To be honest, one of these addon sync tools should really be integrated into the next ARMA. You'd not necessarily need to download the addons directly from the server, instead it would have a link to a remote repository with the mod in it. For further new user friendliness, it could even be considered to have a BIS-regulated promotional list of mod repositories that the game automatically retrieves containing popular and/or major mods such as ACE or I44, so a new user could quickly find and install through the game's addon sync some of the more popular mods around.

The whole ingame download feature is of course not at all new in the gaming world, nor the ability for the game to download mods from a remote server. Even the devs promoting community mods isn't breaking new ground, so it's all quite feasible to implement.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Polar Bear is right.I would much rather start up and connect to a server where I am told to wait while it downloads content to play on it.Even if its 4 hrs its better than having to deal with the hard task of adding mods.Just finding ACE basic is ridiculously hard since the website your sent to is hard to navigate to the point of giving up multiple times for me in beginning.

[Inkompetent 0]

But who would host the addon? Would it be like SixUpdater is now, with multiple mirrors where it just picks any available (user-hosted) mirror to download addons, or should it force the server one joins to upload the crapton of data making ten people connecting exceed the entire month's bandwidth?

And if the former case, then how will those user-hosted servers cope with the bandwidth costs of increased pressure on their servers (within their own limitations of course, since they'll need stricter bandwith limits) and lack of advertisement revenue since the traffic on their advertisement-money-generating websites will drop dramatically?

Or should we allow the hosts to display advertisement in-game to get paid with to make their server-funding easier, depending on what mirror is picked for the download?

Or will a big part of the gaming community die because it stops hosting of addons on a larger scale because it becomes too expensive, so we end up running vanilla-versions just because of the terrible download speeds when joining a server with too few hosting the files and at strictly limited bandwidth per connection?

With addons the size of unit and sound packs in ArmA2/OA it isn't a *that* easy puzzle to solve. There are a lot of small addons - yes. But there are also a lot of 100+ MB size addons, and those can quickly make the costs for servers run amok.

[polar bear 10]

But who would host the addon?

You can make that configurable server-side.

As a general rule the server admin is a power user who can handle the complexity, while the player is potentially someone who bought the game yesterday and doesn't even know where to find the right forum in which to ask questions. The server admin can be presumed to be willing to read and follow documentation, while the player cannot be assumed to be willing to do that. For one thing, the player cannot be presumed fluent in English.

In this case for any add-on that the server requires the server can have a configuration file specifying a list of URLs from which each add-on can be downloaded, either one location, potentially just the server itself, or from a list of remote mirrors. The game would ping each one and attempt to download from the closest / least busy location from the server provided URLs.

Or will a big part of the gaming community die because it stops hosting of addons on a larger scale because it becomes too expensive

I can't see how it is any more expensive, and potentially it is LESS expensive.

Specifically, what is the bandwidth difference between manually downloading a game or add-on, and automatically downloading a game or add-on?

It seems that in manually downloading the game you might download the wrong thing, or frequently mess something up and have to re-install the add-on, or even the whole game and all of your add-ons.

If anything automatic downloads will ensure that things are installed properly the first time and REDUCE bandwidth needs, and in the worst case it is no different from a bandwidth perspective than people manually downloading.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Polar Bear

[Gunter Severloh 4056]

Very good points you guys made on this subject.

There was an addon sync program or something in OFP I remember and that basically downloaded

and or retrieved the files necessary to play a certain mission.

I think that if a new guy wants to play on any server he shouldn't have to worry about required addons or

mods, if there were such a system where they can just join the server that the addons and mods did download,

the problem is a system should be setup so that they are properly installed and labeled correctly in the main game

folder and not be thrown about on one';s computer as in cache, or temp folders, ect.,

Maybe a folder is created in the main game folder labled as Multiplayer files and all files for servers that are needed

would be downloaded and setup in it.

The thing too is if its a big addon/mod, like 20+Mbs then your talking about a wait time, I mean people want to play

not wait, so their would either have to be a what is called a redirect which is a server that allows a player to download files fast, faster then the norm.

I was thinking too that I forget where I seen it maybe on a Red Orchestra website where all the servers were listed

and what was on them, but there could be a page or a link like a real time server watch type program built into the MP

part of the game where each server has a list of addons and mods and what not needed, and then they had links to where you can get them.

For the game in general its not a flat game where the gameplay you see is what you get in vanilla, i would have to say

the about 75% of the time maybe higher the game (a mission) has been edited or built useing a addon or mod, so your

new guy coming into the series wanting to play a particular mission be it on a server, really has to go and learn how to

install addona nd mods, learn the layout and setup of the main folder, the target line ect.,

I personally think our community here should come up with a very simple and easy to

understand video tutorial, on how to:

- install addons

- install mods

- setup the target line

- Know what the main folder is and why addons dont go into the main addons folder, as well as

alot of other things advancing from very basic and simple to advanced and hard as in scripting missions, ect.,.

I think there should be one place for it where new folk and regular people can go to and get all the info they

need instead of play hit and miss on the forums, were talking about cutting down the time it takes to figure

things out, install things, so we get more people in game and less down time if you will. lol sounds like a business.

I personally think the error reporting system could be better for the game and server over all, I mean its obvious

if an addon is missing then you simple cant edit/or play the mission but your new guy dont really understand what

that means or what it really entails.

It should say what is actually wrong, and not give you some scripting, coding mumbo jumbo, where now you got

to go to the forums and ask, it shoudl tell you this is wrong, please refer to this in the book ect.,

Like Polar Bear had said we work enough at our jobs, we dont need any more work just to play a game, but

then again there are people in the community that love the technicalities of the whole thing, me I dont have issues,

it dont bother me that much as I been around since the start and have learned what to do and where to go,

for the new guy it should be in a much more higher consideration.

We were all new to this once.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

I can't see how it is any more expensive, and potentially it is LESS expensive.

Specifically, what is the bandwidth difference between manually downloading a game or add-on, and automatically downloading a game or add-on?

It seems that in manually downloading the game you might download the wrong thing, or frequently mess something up and have to re-install the add-on, or even the whole game and all of your add-ons.

If anything automatic downloads will ensure that things are installed properly the first time and REDUCE bandwidth needs, and in the worst case it is no different from a bandwidth perspective than people manually downloading.

It's not more expensive for the player... FPDR It's more expensive for the SERVER. The SERVER that you want to PLAY on would also have to spend even more money, for more bandwidth, just so that when a brand new player connects they can download all their files from the GAME server, therefor lagging the current players/mission for an hour-several hours, all to save the new player 5-10 minutes. Which makes no sense considering downloading with Firefox or a browser would be 10x faster then any built in downloader.

TBH this sounds like another person that got fed up with the Six-Updater and wants Bohemia to integrate an easier solution.

If that's the case, then you have a severe case of PEBCAK, and I would get that treated right away. Also, your other option is to say **** ACE, and play Vanilla. If it works for me and hundreds of others, it can work for you.

[Inkompetent 0]

My bad for writing 'gaming community' in the last sections. I meant the modding community. Since if the bandwidth issues become too big for servers they'd stop hosting missions requiring the new fancy unit packs, and the incentive to make those packs would undoubtedly decrease since at least some of the motivation is in the number of downloads and appreciation posts.

To let the method of download be configurable by the admin sounds like a good solution though, as long as a method for automatic choosing among a whole range of servers is well supported (like SixUpdater), to make sure downloads are attainable even if one or more servers aren't reachable at the moment.

The only bit left then for such a feature imo would be to cover at least a part of the bandwidth costs. One can't expect hosting a community service to pay for its own ukpeep, but at least the hole in the wallet can be reduced :)

[Defunkt 431]

Given the vast number and the often very large size of mods around this game and the fact that many of them are and should remain optional (where permitted by the server-op) it is a vastly more complicated business than it is convenient to assume. Please also remember that BIS are the good guys, they empower us by supplying us with dedicated servers and modding tools, it doesn't automatically follow that they are then responsible for cleaning up the mess we make once so empowered. ArmA (vanilla) is the game we purchased, mods are not a requirement but a luxury and most studios have already fixed such problems by removing support for modding all together.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

You can make that configurable server-side.

Some rented server hosts actually deny you that possibility; no admin rights and no file creation (security issue). You typically find that out after the papers are signed. I've seen people having their own rented ACE servers they can't join because their client ACE version is updated but the server provider refuse to update theirs.

[PuFu 4600]

One of the things holding back wider market embrace of Arma is the (perceived) difficulty in setting up the game and learning the controls. I recommend that BI look at any options that make the game more user friendly to the regular joe gamer who wants to try it out.

Problems i foresee, that have been covered by more or less by inko:

1. Mirroring Addons - Costs: Server and bandwidth don't come free. All server and community websites mirroring addons are hosted and preserved by this community.

a) if the same server the game is hosted on would be mirroring addons, it would most likely kill/cap the bandwidth every now and then. It's not really feasible. The community servers (clans, squads etc) that are running public servers are doing that so that everyone has a place to play, but they do chip in on the costs, and obviously are up to date with their addons and are familiar with what is requested by each mission and what addons are allowed or not

b) centralized/mirroring from the existing armaholic, armed-assault.info, etc: i guess that would be possible to some extent, although those kind of websites live from the adds on their pages, so more clicks on their pages the more time that particular server and website can stay alive. An inside auto-downloader would nullify the traffic on their webpages, hence no more income going towards keeping the server(s) alive and kicking.

2. The way the addons are distributed:

a) servers allowing version x of the addon y, while all mirrors updated to version z

b) different addons require different types of customization. And auto-downloader might not be able to fill the gaps for you.

c) some addons, although allowed on the server, might not be necesary for a certain mission. Should the auto-downloader sink with mission dependancy or server addons?

d) you talking about approved addons ..Who is to take that decission? BI is out of the question since it's not their job. Some community group? Based on what? See, this might be too subjective and will end up: hey, why didn't my addon got "approved"? This is biased.

While i agree with a centralized way of dealing with addons, i cannot really see a solution around the corner. The main reason is COST, related to bandwidth, as well as the overwhelming complexity that each addon can contain, so i agree with Defunkt here:

[..]BIS are the good guys, they empower us by supplying us with dedicated servers and modding tools, it doesn't automatically follow that they are then responsible for cleaning up the mess we make once so empowered. ArmA (vanilla) is the game we purchased, mods are not a requirement but a luxury and most studios have already fixed such problems by removing support for modding all together.

[polar bear 10]

It's not more expensive for the player... FPDR It's more expensive for the SERVER. The SERVER that you want to PLAY on would also have to spend even more money, for more bandwidth, just so that when a brand new player connects they can download all their files from the GAME server

Sorry, I think you have misunderstood. Why would they be downloading it from the game server? Why would the game server not simply return the standard URL from which that file is ordinarily downloaded?

In other games, where all this has been commonplace for a very long time now, some bigger servers do in fact choose to host the downloadable content simply to ensure that it's available. In that case almost nobody puts the downloadable content on the game server, they put it on a webserver separate from the game server--usually at some ultra cheap web hosting company.

But that is not required, as I said, the server owner could simply configure it to download from the current standard locations exactly as the user would go do today.

Note there is no extra downloading here or any extra bandwidth here from what is done today. Whether you say "Go open up IE and click on this link" or whether your game invokes IE itself and does it for you really doesn't change thing from the server's point of view.

Since the automated solution has less chance of human error it'd probably result in fewer downloads and less bandwidth consumed on the servers hosting the files than today.

Which makes no sense considering downloading with Firefox or a browser would be 10x faster then any built in downloader.

I would assume that the game would invoke the Internet Explorer DLL's in order to download the files. That is how almost all windows software works when it wants to fetch a web URL. I agree it would be absolutely silly for BI to implement their own web download code when there is so much out there already they could simply call!

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 PM ----------

1. Mirroring Addons - Costs: Server and bandwidth don't come free. All server and community websites mirroring addons are hosted and preserved by this community.

Why would there be any more bandwidth consumed by having the game download the software for you, versus you downloading it manually?

I don't see why the files would have to be hosted differently than they are today or where there would be any increase in bandwidth.

This could all be implemented without changing the current hosting arrangements for those files, and the only argument that the bandwidth would increase is that it would lead to more people playing the game... well how is that bad?

2. The way the addons are distributed:

a) servers allowing version x of the addon y, while all mirrors updated to version z

Yeah I pointed out back in post #1 that the solution would have to allow you to have more than one version of the add-on installed, so that you could use the specific version required by the server you're connecting to.

Note that in this case TODAY the server has to provide you with a place to download the older version or else no new users can connect to that server. If the server requires an obsolete version of a file they can host it themselves obviously at the cost of additional bandwidth, just like they must be doing right now.

c) some addons, although allowed on the server, might not be necesary for a certain mission. Should the auto-downloader sink with mission dependancy or server addons?

In that case the auto-downloader should pop up a list with check boxes where you can check off which mods you want to download. You would have to download the required ones, you could leave the non-required ones unchecked.

d) you talking about approved addons ..Who is to take that decission?

The server owner. I am NOT proposing a centralized solution. The server owner would provide the list of addons required in the form of a list of URLs that you would then go download. The files could be hosted on any website in the world.

I did suggest that add ons should be signed with a key for security purposes so that you can be sure you trust the file you are downloading. There could be some discussion about whether it's appropriate to have a central authority there--but you should still be able to download (automatically) and install unsigned software. In that case the auto downloader should pop up a message saying "The content you are downloading is not signed by the trusted authority, download only if you trust the source you are downloading from" and make you click "I understand the risks, continue".

I am NOT proposing any restrictions on what people can do, simply the automation of the unpleasant work of installing the addons.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Polar Bear

[PuFu 4600]

Why would there be any more bandwidth consumed by having the game download the software for you, versus you downloading it manually?

because it will be more accessible, so a bandwidth increase is foreseeable

I don't see why the files would have to be hosted differently than they are today or where there would be any increase in bandwidth.

Again, the main issue is this: no more direct traffic(add related) to addon host-er websites, means no more MONEY going to those server which means no one would spend blindly all the bandwidth from their own pockets.

IE: KH owns a servers in a collocation, where the fee per month is about 40quid/50Eus for 100Mbit line UP/DOWN with 3TB of traffic(it is actually cheaper a than renting a server each month). We never hit that amount using it internaly for our files, and server(s) being up.

As soon as we mirrored ACE1 back in the day, we went well beyond the 3TB traffic(towards 5TB if irc), which lead to additional costs(every aditional GB is charged separatly). Since these costs are handled by the clan members only, via donation, but shared somewhat(no adds), we had to put a limit to that particular mirror for the following month

You don't really understand the amount of money(in relation with bandwidth) needed, nor the dependency from adds webpages such as armaholic suffer from.

This could all be implemented without changing the current hosting arrangements for those files, and the only argument that the bandwidth would increase is that it would lead to more people playing the game... well how is that bad?

Wrong, since the packs don't always come "clean", as in ready to unpack in your root folder: some have only the Pbos (not the whole @MOD/Addons?/bla.pbo layout), some have some other folders or files around etc etc.

[polar bear 10]

because it will be more accessible, so a bandwidth increase is foreseeable

Fair enough, more people would use it and more people would be playing the game and the size of the community would increase, along with the uptake of modules, and so of course bandwidth would go up.

I see that as the goal. Saving bandwidth by limiting the growth of your user base is a false economy.

Again, the main issue is this: no more direct traffic(add related) to addon host-er websites, means no more MONEY going to those server which means no one would spend blindly all the bandwidth from their own pockets.

That's true you'd be cutting out the need to visit a module website. I think the notion that by making the process painful for the user you are somehow increasing revenue, though, is wrong. You increase revenue by attracting the maximum number of people to the game, and at the moment, the usability issues limit the game to "hardcore" people who are willing to edit configs.

Wrong, since the packs don't always come "clean", as in ready to unpack in your root folder: some have only the Pbos (not the whole @MOD/Addons?/bla.pbo layout), some have some other folders or files around etc etc.

The usual solution to that is to require the module writer to provide a post-install script that sets everything up properly with sensible defaults. Of course nothing stops the advanced user from going in and choosing different settings than the defaults.

[giorgygr 61]

It maybe looks bit offtopic but..

IMHO generally the user-made addons are meant for SP and "Clans".

Please don't rush to rip me apart..i can explain.

In the majority -mainly most popular- of public PvP servers NO addons allowed (even a Soundmod) and..

In popular MP Coops like Domination in most cases you can enter with any addon you like ..

(i haven't played Domi in O.A TBH..this is how i remember from ArmAII Domi's)

The rest of missions running in MP maybe with special addons are a 20%

fairly..

..but the whole idea this post started..i think it is a dream of many people for years now..

Edited August 7, 2010 by GiorgyGR

[polar bear 10]

Pufu I have given some thought to one concern you raised that I thought was really a good point: That the module writers would see less traffic on their websites and as a result get less ad revenue.

I honestly think that overall they would see more traffic, if more people played the game, but I also have a practical solution as well that provides a more direct solution.

Supposing the downloader threw up a splash screen while it downloaded the module, displaying content provided by the module writer? It would explain briefly what the module was and could include space for paid messages like "Works best with XYZ Graphics Card" or something like that.

It would also include a button that the user could click that would launch their web browser in case the user is interested in learning more about the module.

That might even be more valuable ad space than they currently sell as essentially you've got a user sitting there watching the download occur--a bit of a captive audience compared to someone clicking through the module website only to download the file.

At any rate I think the pros outweight the cons. I think everyone wins if the game is made easier for the public and as a result greatly grows the user base.

Honestly anything that gets more people playing the game is a win for us all, because the more profitable it is for BIS to sell the game, the more they'll be able to invest in improving it.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Polar Bear

[NevilleBartos 10]

I think a readme with links to the tutorials/communities for finding and running mods would have helped me out when i first installed the game, although its not that hard for anyone keen enough to find the info using google, but some direction from BIS might help others with less patience get into the game.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

It's not more expensive for the player... FPDR It's more expensive for the SERVER. The SERVER that you want to PLAY on would also have to spend even more money, for more bandwidth, just so that when a brand new player connects they can download all their files from the GAME server, therefor lagging the current players/mission for an hour-several hours, all to save the new player 5-10 minutes. Which makes no sense considering downloading with Firefox or a browser would be 10x faster then any built in downloader.

TBH this sounds like another person that got fed up with the Six-Updater and wants Bohemia to integrate an easier solution.

If that's the case, then you have a severe case of PEBCAK, and I would get that treated right away. Also, your other option is to say **** ACE, and play Vanilla. If it works for me and hundreds of others, it can work for you.

And you have to download from the server?? Just pop in a link to the addon, have the game handle the content.

[therev709 10]

IMO the last thing I want are a bunch of COD dorks complaining that A2 doesn't have throwing knives. If they're too lazy or incompetent to install addons to A2 they shouldnt be playing it. I would LOVE a wider audience to Arma 2, but I don't agree with 'dumbing' it down, its NOT hard.

Instead, BIS just has to do a much better job marketing the game. I barely remember seeing much advertising for the game, and the Youtube videos were very "eh." I felt that they were just marketing to their community audience, the people who were already fans of the series. They need to market the game more, but smartly. Its easy to intimidate people with this "simulation" game, but if hey spin in right, they can really tap into a wider audience.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

IMO the last thing I want are a bunch of COD dorks complaining that A2 doesn't have throwing knives. If they're too lazy or incompetent to install addons to A2 they shouldnt be playing it. I would LOVE a wider audience to Arma 2, but I don't agree with 'dumbing' it down, its NOT hard.

Instead, BIS just has to do a much better job marketing the game. I barely remember seeing much advertising for the game, and the Youtube videos were very "eh." I felt that they were just marketing to their community audience, the people who were already fans of the series. They need to market the game more, but smartly. Its easy to intimidate people with this "simulation" game, but if hey spin in right, they can really tap into a wider audience.

Wow, why do you think you have the right to determine who is and is not "COD dorks". There are plenty of people interested in realism and team work who simply do not have the time or skill to download and install addons manually.

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

There are plenty of people interested in realism and team work who simply do not have the time or skill to download and install addons manually.

Ummm, wat? Seriously? FPDR

For me part of the whole Arma experience is checking to see what new mods are out for download. I find it exciting to track the progress of a mod and then finally get to play with it as close to release date as possible. It takes hardly any time or skill to download a mod, you just click the link and then copy the files into the right folder. How hard is that? As for running them, use a third party launcher where you can select what you want to run before startup. There are effective tutorials available for doing just this.

[11aTony 0]

OPs suggestion kinda makes sense but for me personaly there should be "disable auto-downloading = 1" option then. I dont want my game to install anything. I like dealing with mods my self as well. Check BIF or armaholic for new mods, dl them and install them. I mean, nearly every mod installs the same so its not really matter of skill, its more matter of time and patience for some I guess. For me the problem is not being able to enable/disable mods on the fly without restarting game. This would save me a great amount of time.

[kylania 568]

There are plenty of people interested in realism and team work who simply do not have the time or skill to download and install addons manually.

Click a link, wait, unzip a file, wait, perhaps move a folder, check a box in a launcher, done.

If someone can't handle that, they need to sell their computer and buy an XBox and quit PC gaming since they are obviously in over their heads.