School shooting in germany!

[KingBeast 0]

Argh the Bratwurst king has reprimanded me!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

"Hans will seine Bratwurst"!    No just kiddin! I went to see if you had any new models to offer on your Site that is why!

(but that Nazi-cross on the right top corner of you Site still makes me feel uncomfortable, it is kind of (like Wolfenstein), well not Wehrmacht-like, I mean they didnt even say this "Heil Hitler" bullshit on the front. Using the ordinary black-white-read symbol is probably better, or the eagle, or the ordinary cross, all those were the official symbols.

But I dont want to tell you what to do, not when you do all the work!"

[ven1 0]

most people think that columbine was the worst act of school violence, actually it was not..

In 1927, a disgruntled farmer placed dynamite in the basement of a local school and set it off, killing 44 students

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial7/bath/4.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4077/kehoe.html

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ven1 @ April 27 2002,05:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">most people think that columbine was the worst act of school violence, actually it was not..

In 1927, a disgruntled farmer placed dynamite in the basement of a local school and set it off, killing 44 students

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial7/bath/4.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4077/kehoe.html<span id='postcolor'>

well that is not realy a significant detail is it? What made it so terrible was that C. was well prepared beforehand. They actually intended to blow up the holse school (thanks they were amateurs). How can you and your friend plan your own dead days beforehand. Even for people with suicidal intentions that is untypical!

[ven1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 27 2002,05:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ven1 @ April 27 2002,058)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">most people think that columbine was the worst act of school violence, actually it was not..

In 1927, a disgruntled farmer placed dynamite in the basement of a local school and set it off, killing 44 students

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial7/bath/4.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4077/kehoe.html<span id='postcolor'>

well that is not realy a significant detail is it? What made it so terrible was that C. was well prepared beforehand. They actually intended to blow up the holse school (thanks they were amateurs). How can you and your friend plan your own dead days beforehand. Even for people with suicidal intentions that is untypical!<span id='postcolor'>

The 1927 incident was also well planned before hand, he planned to destroy the school and placed enough dynamite to destroy the entire school but only part of the school exploded, because of some wiring problems he didnt notice the problem.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

[sarcasm] Well it goes to show you how well 'anti-gun' laws really do work to eliminate crime.[/sarcasm]

As soon as I heard this story I knew there would be a gun debate on this forum once more. What can I say that I haven't preached on here before?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for banning guns, I don't think that most crimes committed are done with illegal guns, I reckon its friends or kids borrowing or stealing them from someone<span id='postcolor'>

Uhhh, dude, stealing a gun is illegal! I think you should check some statistics first. If someone steals a gun that they are not qualified to carry they are guilty of theft and a firearms violation. If someone who is qualified to own a gun and loans it to someone who isn't, they are both guilty of a crime.

I hear that in Switzerland you *can* get 20 years in prison for ANY firearms violation. Switzerland's gun laws are petty strict when compared to the U.S.

As to the whole 'banning guns = more crime' debate, it depends on the society at large. If you ban guns in a place that has had them for a while (like the US, or Australia) there will be an increase in crime because only the criminals will have guns when the law abiding citizens turn theirs in.

If you ban them in a society that has never really had free access to guns there won't be very many guns to go around in the first place, so criminals won't have them and the crime rate would be the about the same as it was before. Look at Japan.

Tyler

[ven1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hear that in Switzerland you *can* get 20 years in prison for ANY firearms violation. Switzerland's gun laws are petty strict when compared to the U.S.<span id='postcolor'>

I thought Switzerland is traditionally known for its high private gun ownership?

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I thought Switzerland is traditionally known for its high private gun ownership? <span id='postcolor'>

Apparently, that is a myth.

[ven1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Apparently, that is a myth.<span id='postcolor'>

I've never known whether it's a myth or not, but I always hear people opposed to gun control laws, touting Switzerlands high private gun ownership and low crime rate.

For example, this page...

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Switzerland has compulsory gun ownership for military age males, yet it has a far lower murder rate than the U.S. But Switzerland also has far stricter gun control laws. Even so, Switzerland has the second highest rate of handgun ownership and handgun murders in the industrialized world, after the U.S. <span id='postcolor'>

[ven1 0]

current gun control laws in Switzerland

http://www.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/legaff/Fact/gunown.html

[Wobble 1]

FACT: 82% of homicides to children age 13 and under are committed without a gun.

* 1997, FBI Uniform Crime Statistics

FACT: 0.1% of all deaths for children between the ages 0-14 are from firearms, 0.6% are from motor vehicles, 5.3% are from being struck in beatings or bludgeoning, 6.0% from poisoning, and 42.6% from suffocation.

* 1997 National Center for Health Statistics National Vital Statistics Report

FACT: In 1996 there were only 21 accidental gun deaths for children under age 15. About twice as many children under 10 die from drowning in bathtubs.

 

 

* Centers for Disease Control

MYTH: 13 Children are killed each day by guns.

 

FACT: The statistics cited for this myth include "children" up to age of 24, Most violent crime is committed by males ages 16-24, so these numbers include adult gang members dying during criminal activity.

*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1997

FACT: 18-20 year olds commit over 23% of all gun murders. None of these criminals are allowed to purchase a handgun due to their age under current law.

* U.S. Treasury and Justice Dept. Report, 1999

so gun laws make no difference...

""If gun control worked, then we should be free of crime.""

FACT: There are more guns in the U.S. than cars (228,000,000 guns according to the 1998 FBI statistics and 207,754,000 automobiles according to the 1998 Federal Highway Administration registrations). Yet, you are 31 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a car than a gun according to the National Safety Council…despite cars having been registered and licensed for more than 100 years.

FACT: 90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type.

* 1998 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms

FACT: Less than .01% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime).

*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994

FACT: Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals.

* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994

FACT: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day.

* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996

FACT: Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired.

* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.

FACT: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times- more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.

* Fall 1995, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

 

 

This means that, each year, firearms are used 65 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives

MYTH: Concealed Carry Laws Increase Crime

 

 

FACT: When laws were passed that allowed citizens to carry concealed weapons:

* Murder rates drop 8%

* Rape rates fall 5%

* Aggravated assaults drop 7%

FACT: 97.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes.

* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police

********************************************

MYTH: Police are our protection, and people don't need guns.

 

 

FACT: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals.

444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'

******************************************

FACT: After Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibited handgun possession for self defense, the "breaking and entering" crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate.

* Pat Mayhew, Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States,

Canada and England and Wales (Nat'l Inst. Of Just., Wash., D.C., 1987)

MYTH: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society.

 

 

FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.

* United Nations data

Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Thank you Wobble, I know where you got those stats from, a good site if you ask me.

In other words, there is a violence problem in the U.S. but not a gun problem.

Tyler

[Wobble 1]

correct.. and what better way for a law abiding citizen to protect themself from violent people than,,  yup..

[joke]

the US isnt too violent.. everyone else is just lame[/joke]

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 27 2002,06:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thank you Wobble, I know where you got those stats from, a good site if you ask me.  

In other words, there is a  violence problem in the U.S. but not a gun problem.

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

Well, if you say that you have a violence problem then having many guns in the country is not a good idea. By gun control you could reduce:

* Accidents

* Crime of passion

* The number of illigal guns

[Wobble 1]

Well, if you say that you have a violence problem then having many guns in the country is not a good idea. By gun control you could reduce:

* Accidents

* Crime of passion

* The number of illigal guns

nothing will decrease the number of illegal guns

it will just reduce the theance of someone saving their own life.

Crime of passion

FACT: 90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type.

The number of illigal guns

FACT: Less than .01% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime

Accidents

FACT: 0.1% of all deaths for children between the ages 0-14 are from firearms, 0.6% are from motor vehicles, 5.3% are from being struck in beatings or bludgeoning, 6.0% from poisoning, and 42.6% from suffocation.

VASTLY more people are killed every year by commin household objects, cars, and "other" (flying dead goats..etc)

the problem is "gun control" is a law.. criminals dont follow laws so it wouldent apply to them anyway.. just the honest folk who actually deserve the right to own one..

also.. Mexaco, and south africa tried that idea.. both their crime rates increased.. SA's increased something like 600% over a 5 year setting a world record, and making it both the country with the strictest gun laws in the word, and the most dangerous country in which to live...

its been proven over and over.. fewer guns doesent equal less crime/accidents/whatever.. all it will result in is fewer law abiding citizens owning firearms.. less people being capable of defending themselves,

however history has shown more than a few instances where the crack down and stiffining of guns laws had caused crime rates to skyrocket..

sure you might not accidentley shoot yourself.. because a burgler did it for you the night before.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FACT: 90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type.

<span id='postcolor'>

What about the 10% then?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The number of illigal guns

FACT: Less than .01% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime <span id='postcolor'>

This I don't believe since it is impossible to count them. So it is pure BS.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">0.1% of all deaths for children between the ages 0-14 are from firearms, 0.6% are from motor vehicles, 5.3% are from being struck in beatings or bludgeoning, 6.0% from poisoning, and 42.6% from suffocation. <span id='postcolor'>

Let me ask you this: How many children are you ready to kill so that you can keep your guns for plinking in the garden?

[foxer 0]

Let me ask you this: How many children are you ready to kill so that you can keep your guns for plinking in the garden?

If we was in a great world no one would die.You should be asking how many parents are going let their kids die ? When i was youngMy dad is very strict on his guns,if you touch them when he's not around he will get piss and probably spank me.Also he keeps them locked up,theres only one key,and he has it.Soo,maybe if people kept their guns locked up better kids wouldn't get to them.Also when i say lock i don't mean these glass locking gun holding thing,i'm talking about something like metal,and can't get in them easy.

Now if your talking about kids buying them off the street,or someone buying it for the kid,well that's already illegal.

I think some people(people that's not from u.s.,or don't know really how u.s. gun controls)Think it's simple getting a gun legally,but it's not.

Also like to add that you can't compare car accidents,bike accidents to guns,that's truly unfair.Kids ride bikes and ride in cars everyday,you don't see a kid with a gun everyday.

[Hilandor 1]

i like the gun laws of UK/Scotland

I have no fear of some idiot running up behind me with a firearm on the street.

I have no fear that my kids will get hold of any weapons, whether it be accidental or not.

I do not have to worry if i have weapons secure in the house and the chance that my children could get a hold of them.

Firearms should be for police and military only imo, i think it is one crazy law to allow anyone the right to bear arms

[Joe Porta 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 27 2002,13:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have no fear of some idiot running up behind me with a firearm on the street.<span id='postcolor'>

Thats because you are immortal and can only die through decapatation.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Oh great! I see a lot of cosmetical stats here! Beatiful stuff, realy great!

I mean I dont need those figures, just think straight and you do understand that weapons are a risk. What the hell is this: "xxx % of shootings are criminals killing criminals"? Ah, well okay if they kill each other it is okay! That is WildWildWest mentality. Guns are there to kill and whoever gets killed is one person too much! (oh I forgot you still got the death penalty like Iran and stuff). Or this, "xxxx% of suicides are not commited by guns...." well of course a gun is never to blame, it is the society. But if society does not learn you have to impose rules.

Now if you say you dont need weapons to kill but to threaten the gangster, to defend yourself, then you forget what you said before, the criminals all have got guns. Well if two people have guns, one is afraid and nervous, the other doesnt want to get caught...well then it is programmed to end up in an escalation. The same is true for all gun related issues. Did you ever look at your beautyful stats of hunting accidents? They are terrible.

I just wonder what you feel like when you are abroad e.g. somewhere in Europe! Do you feel unsafe without a gun, in a city you dont know, somewhere in the dark...would you realy think something like: I wish I had my gun?"

[KingBeast 0]

NEENAW NEENAW

FACT - From 1988 Guns accounted for more deaths among teenage US males than all other causes put together.

But yeah, does everyone remember Dunblane? The massacre in scotland?

Okay good, now think about dunblane. Now think about the kneejerk reaction to guns in this country after dunblane.

Now think some more. When was the last big incident involving guns in the UK?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 27 2002,16:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">NEENAW NEENAW

FACT - From 1988 Guns accounted for more deaths among teenage US males than all other causes put together.

But yeah, does everyone remember Dunblane? The massacre in scotland?

Okay good, now think about dunblane. Now think about the kneejerk reaction to guns in this country after dunblane.

Now think some more. When was the last big incident involving guns in the UK?<span id='postcolor'>

too lazy to think, tell us!

[KingBeast 0]

My point was that i dont believe there has been a big gun incident since dunblane

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ April 27 2002,12:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also when i say lock i don't mean these glass locking gun holding thing,i'm talking about something like metal,and can't get in them easy.<span id='postcolor'>

We have to lock up our weapons in a special form of safe by law in Sweden. That I think is very good.

If there was a gun problem in Sweden and a lot of people people killed by guns, I would gladly throw away my guns and support a gun ban. The hobby of sport shooting and hunting is not that importrant that you allow people to get killed because of it.

As for guns for self defense, I think there is a major difference in the view of crime and criminals in Europe and USA. The Americans are much harsher agains criminals and it is like if you commit a crime, you have used up your right to live. I personally would prefer getting robbed then killing anybody.

[christophercles 0]

In australia your "supposed" to lock up your firearms in a metal cabinet, but i dont think they enforce that.

As for the banning of weapons in australia from law abiding citizens, thats not totally correct, we can own shotguns, semi automatic pistols, and air rifles, just basicaly anything that isnt automatic.

I myself reguarly go our and shoot .50 cal pistols, .44's, usp's, shotguns, and a wide range of weapons without much restriction.

I dont think that crime has risen because law abiding citizens no longer have firearms, not alot of the population had them anyway, and our police force hasnt been effected at all by the legislation, in fact they have just upgraded to Glocks, so we dont have a lack of armed policed officers.