School shooting in germany!

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 26 2002,23:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">for counter example, JPN has really strict gun laws and never heard a JPN highschool kid going on rampage with a gun

here is another example

in 1987 all forms of guns were banned in South Africa, it has the stricties gun laws IN THE WORLD. In 1990 the rape, murder, assualt and robber rates began to increase, by 1995 South Africa had the highest crim rate in the world.

Right now it has the 4th highest.  the US has the 15th, "russia" is 11, lebanon 3rd columbia is 1st with cuba being a close second..<span id='postcolor'>

not the strictest. JPN is.

just becuase crime rate up, does it necessarily imply that it was due to gun control law? could it be any other factor?

you need to show that rise in crime rate is directly caused by increase in gun control law, not correlated

[Guest]

An interesting fact is how homicide rates are in different cities.

[Homicides/100000 capita]

Washington DC: 46.44

Moscow: 18.85

Tallin: 10.20

Amsterdam: 3.22

Berne: 3.10

Stockholm: 3.0

Berlin: 2.53

Edinburgh: 2.44

Tokyo: 1.30

Rome: 1.10

Canberra: 0.32

Another interesting thing is the prison population.

USA has the greatest nuber of jail inmates/capita, followed

by Russia who has about half.

References:

<a href="http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hosb601.pdf" target="_blank">International comparisons of criminal justice statistics, 1999

</a>

Bureau of Justice Statistics

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

yeah, but it is only so low in Rome because they got tons of beautiful chix there, no reason to kill yourself if you are surrounded by Italian beauties!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 27 2002,20:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Another interesting thing is the prison population.

USA has the greatest nuber of jail inmates/capita, followed

by Russia who has about half.

References:

<a href="http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hosb601.pdf" target="_blank">International comparisons of criminal justice statistics, 1999

</a>

Bureau of Justice Statistics<span id='postcolor'>

So once again... We're #1!!!

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 27 2002,16:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">NEENAW NEENAW

FACT - From 1988 Guns accounted for more deaths among teenage US males than all other causes put together.

But yeah, does everyone remember Dunblane? The massacre in scotland?

Okay good, now think about dunblane. Now think about the kneejerk reaction to guns in this country after dunblane.

Now think some more. When was the last big incident involving guns in the UK?<span id='postcolor'>

none cos their all out stabbing ppl and the laws were for the whole of the UK not scotland in particular and there still a lot of gun related crime in certain parts of england.

UK laws aren`t perfect by a long shot and neithers the medias representation of firearms ,a bit like the foxhunting cack,completely biased.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 27 2002,17:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My point was that i dont believe there has been a big gun incident since dunblane<span id='postcolor'>

When was the last bvig gun incedent before dunblane and would of having pistols banned before that stopped the incident from happening not that im all for the complete retraction of all gun laws but something more middleground and well thought out legislation regarding them would be better in my opinion rather than knee-jerk tabliod like action.

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ April 27 2002,21:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When was the last bvig gun incedent before dunblane<span id='postcolor'>

I believe that was Hungerford in 1987....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Armed with a Kalashnikov rifle and a Biretta pistol, Michael Ryan rampaged through the streets of the town shooting 16 people, including his own mother, before killing himself.

<span id='postcolor'>

source

[foxer 0]

Public give up 160,000 guns after Dunblane

where i got that number...

When you people gave up your guns did you get paid for it ? Or did you just turn them in for free ?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ April 28 2002,00:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When you people gave up your guns did you get paid for it ? Or did you just turn them in for free ?<span id='postcolor'>

For free mate. Capitalism is not everything

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">An interesting fact is how homicide rates are in different cities.

[Homicides/100000 capita]

Washington DC: 46.44

<span id='postcolor'>

Denoir, did you bother to check Washington DC's gun laws? They are quite strict, there are no hand guns allowed in city limits, as far as I know. Obviously, tight gun laws don't work in DC or just about anywhere else for that matter.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Armed with a Kalashnikov rifle and a Beretta pistol <span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm, those sound illegal, especially the AK. Do you know where he bought them from? I am willing to bet it was an illegal source.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This I don't believe since it is impossible to count them(guns). So it is pure BS.<span id='postcolor'>

Gun sales can be counted like car sales, aside from what people smuggle into the country. All manufactured or imported guns are kept accounted for. Roughly 228,000,000 guns are in the U.S. according to the 1998 FBI statistics. The FBI also keep crime stats, so they can make a good estimate to how many guns are used in crimes.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, if you say that you have a violence problem then having many guns in the country is not a good idea. By gun control you could reduce:

* Accidents

* Crime of passion

* The number of illigal guns

<span id='postcolor'>

Whatever. That might work in theory, but where are your stats to back it up? Far, far, more violent crimes (90% according to the FBI) are comitted without the use of a gun.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have no fear of some idiot running up behind me with a firearm on the street.<span id='postcolor'>

Nither do I. I can do the same in my country or anywhere in the U.S., ghettos are an exception. Youre not that special.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh great! I see a lot of cosmetical stats here! <span id='postcolor'>

The FBI makes cosmetical stats? Since when did that happen? Why werent U.S. citizens informed?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FACT - From 1988 Guns accounted for more deaths among teenage US males than all other causes put together.

<span id='postcolor'>

What's your source? What are 'other' causes?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But yeah, does everyone remember Dunblane? The massacre in Scotland?

Okay good, now think about dunblane. Now think about the kneejerk reaction to guns in this country after dunblane.

Now think some more. When was the last big incident involving guns in the UK?

<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah I do. How many school shooting have there ever been in the U.K.? Was it ever a real problem there? So you really think a bunch of laws made any difference?

Laws don't prevent stupid people from doing stupid things, they only help punish them when they do it. Do you think making weed totally illegal stops people from growing it or smoking it? Do you think prohibition worked in the U.S. in the 20's?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If there was a gun problem in Sweden and a lot of people people killed by guns, I would gladly throw away my guns and support a gun ban. The hobby of sport shooting and hunting is not that importrant that you allow people to get killed because of it.<span id='postcolor'>

No disrespect Denoir, but you don't deserve to own a gun. You will give up legal guns used legally to help prevent illegal acts with illegal guns?? Are you sure there isn't something in the water over there in Europe? How many sport shooters are out there killing people anyway?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the problem is "gun control" is a law.. criminals dont follow laws so it wouldent apply to them anyway.. just the honest folk who actually deserve the right to own one..

<span id='postcolor'>

Wobble buddy, I agree with you 100% but honestly, you might as well speak to a wall. I and others have said the same thing 1,000,000 times before but some people just don't seem to get it. They would rather rely on a government to protect them than do it themselves.

I'm glad Europeans don't run our governments.

Tyler

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The FBI makes cosmetical stats because otherwise it wouldnt be the FBI (like the secret service in any country). They are not the national service for statistics, they got strategical obligations. They only deliver what they consider serves the purpose (again, like any other country). Of course they are cosmetics, damm, every company does ugly accounting cosmetics to please shareholders (I could hide about 1mio dollars in the ballance sheet of a company worth 30mio, just through creating hidden reserves, and this is legal). Be a bit more critical, will ya

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The FBI makes cosmetical stats because otherwise it wouldnt be the FBI (like the secret service in any country). <span id='postcolor'>

Don't start with that conspiracy theory/men in black suits crap. The FBI has it's own stats page for sanity's sake. The FBI is not a secret service, the spook stuff belongs to the NSA and the CIA.

FBI

Tyler

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No disrespect Denoir, but you don't deserve to own a gun. You will give up legal guns used legally to help prevent illegal acts with illegal guns?? Are you sure there isn't something in the water over there in Europe? How many sport shooters are out there killing people anyway?<span id='postcolor'>

Well, the guy from Erfurt for starters.

But ffs, can you not people see the obvious thing: if a gun is not lying around, nobody can pick it up and fire it! Accidents that are easily avoidable become possible in that way.

In regards to violence, whether with or without guns, it seems to me that the US has issues in regards to that. Would be less bloody without guns though.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 28 2002,04:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The FBI makes cosmetical stats because otherwise it wouldnt be the FBI (like the secret service in any country). <span id='postcolor'>

Don't start with that conspiracy theory/men in black suits crap. The FBI has it's own stats page for sanity's sake. The FBI is not a secret service, the spook stuff belongs to the NSA and the CIA.

FBI

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

No, not that conspiracy stuff (men in black is fucking great though). I just know that you can never trust stats. I did a two year cours on stats to improve my accounting knowledge, and I can tell ya that you shouldnt trust anyone providing you with stats. The purpose of stats is to make a clear argument. But an argument is an argument and servers only one side. E.g. if you look at the CIA world-fact-book you will see that the military of so called "dangerous countries" was emphasized after Bush took over. Yes, the stats changed!!!! The FBI is a more "public" agency, I agree, but they got obligations too. Otherwise people get kicked! If you dont understand this then I hope you will ever see the struggle that exists in the Executive Management of a company/ agency

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Ronin, blaming guns for the shooting in Germany is just as absurd as blaming video games. Why don't people just blame the sick fuck who did it?

I own guns AND violent video games but I have never shot someone or pointed a gun at someone with the intent to kill them. The same can be said for Wobble, allow me to quote him from another thread:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its obviousley videogames. I wonder what games Hitler played....

Blame games.. blame guns.. but dont dare blame the the sick fucking idiot that actually perpetuated, orchestrated and carried out the act.. god know he is the LAST person to blame... yes yes.. he is the biggest victim of all.. ohha ahhh!

What horseshit.

If the kid hadn't had a gun he wouldnt have been able to kill 18 people, bullshit

If he wasnt a deprived, crazed pshycho he wouldent have been able to kill 18 people.. The typical bullshit as usual.. totally ignore the actual killer and place the blame on the weapon he chooses to use..

such a pathetic idea.. forgoe actually dealing withe the people who carry out the crime.. just blame whatever weapon they choose to use..

Im sure the Holocaust was the fault of the incinerator and gas chamber.. not the Nazis.. right? <span id='postcolor'>

Amen.

Wobble, you have horrible grammar.

Tyler

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Exactly, no one, especially government agencies, is neutral. There is always a mission to fulfill, always a target to be met, and they are going to tidy things up so that it seems as if they are doing their job properly.

I will probably be doing the same thing in a few years (giving false progress reports etc.), but I am very aware that others do as well.

Besides, some of these FBI statistics were outdated and a bit pointless.

And do not forget, 2% of something may sound small, but if that something is 300,000, then we are still takling about 6,000 people here. This is people we are dealing with, not bloody statistics.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 28 2002,04:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ronin, blaming guns for the shooting in Germany is just as absurd as blaming video games. Why don't people just blame the sick fuck who did it?

I own guns AND violent video games but I have never shot someone or pointed a gun at someone with the intent to kill them. The same can be said for Wobble, allow me to quote him from another thread:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its obviousley videogames. I wonder what games Hitler played....

Blame games.. blame guns.. but dont dare blame the the sick fucking idiot that actually perpetuated, orchestrated and carried out the act.. god know he is the LAST person to blame... yes yes.. he is the biggest victim of all.. ohha ahhh!

What horseshit.

If the kid hadn't had a gun he wouldnt have been able to kill 18 people, bullshit

If he wasnt a deprived, crazed pshycho he wouldent have been able to kill 18 people.. The typical bullshit as usual.. totally ignore the actual killer and place the blame on the weapon he chooses to use..

such a pathetic idea.. forgoe actually dealing withe the people who carry out the crime.. just blame whatever weapon they choose to use..

Im sure the Holocaust was the fault of the incinerator and gas chamber.. not the Nazis.. right? <span id='postcolor'>

Amen.

Wobble, you have horrible grammar.  

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

Did I say anything? You asked how many sport shooters kill people. I answered.

What do you want?

[Pukko 0]

I have spent some time to catch up with the posts about the school shooting in Germany. After reading the 12 pages in this thread (mostly about guns) I noticed the other thread supposed to be about computergames to be blamed, and whats it about - GUNS n glory. Halleluja!!!!!

Since I am studying Educational science (only to parts related to the school system, basically the same thing as Sociology and Psykology) I have read a lot of theories and opinions about what school is all about. I hoped to see discussions about how the school system could be the cause for the shootings, but they are nowhere to be seen; only guns  

So here comes some provocative theories/opinions about what school is about:

* Storage of 'not yet human beings' during daytime.

* A system to get rid of people that society dont want.

* Production of good employed and consuming but not reflecting citisens.

Ah, maybe its pointless - there are so many disgusting ideologies we hold dear here in the 'western world' that the school is just a tiny part. What really matters is GUNS in themselves, right?

Anyway, I'm off to bed, probably to check back after Barcelona GP tomorrow. See ya

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you look at the CIA world-fact-book you will see that the military of so called "dangerous countries" was emphasized after Bush took over.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, a good deal of those gun stats were compiled while Klinton was still in office. Klinton hated guns, and the military.

Tyler

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir, did you bother to check Washington DC's gun laws? They are quite strict, there are no hand guns allowed in city limits, as far as I know. Obviously, tight gun laws don't work in DC or just about anywhere else for that matter.

<span id='postcolor'>

And bringing in guns over the state line is very hard.. yeah right. Gun trade is not a local issue. You have to make a change within an entire area. Otherwise it is like saying "oh, look, I don't have a gun and yet criminals use guns".

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gun sales can be counted like car sales, aside from what people smuggle into the country. All manufactured or imported guns are kept accounted for. Roughly 228,000,000 guns are in the U.S. according to the 1998 FBI statistics. The FBI also keep crime stats, so they can make a good estimate to how many guns are used in crimes.<span id='postcolor'>

Except that they can only say for the guns that they confiscate. I would be surprised if that would be more then 1% of the guns used in crimes. People don't report stolen guns, that is a factor too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No disrespect Denoir, but you don't deserve to own a gun. You will give up legal guns used legally to help prevent illegal acts with illegal guns?? Are you sure there isn't something in the water over there in Europe? <span id='postcolor'>

Wow, now I don't deserve to have a gun because I am ready to give it up in hope of preventing killings? What the fuck is wrong with you mate? Don't you know that human life is much more valuable then sports and entertainment?

How many people are you willing to sacrifice because of a sport? The gun used in the school shooting in Germany was legal.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many sport shooters are out there killing people anyway?

<span id='postcolor'>

Well, for instance the kid in Germany, if you want a very obvious answer. People get crazy and kill. Guns get stolen and are used in crimes. Stolen legal guns are illigal.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ April 28 2002,04:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have spent some time to catch up with the posts about the school shooting in Germany. After reading the 12 pages in this thread (mostly about guns) I noticed the other thread supposed to be about computergames to be blamed, and whats it about - GUNS n glory. Halleluja!!!!!

Since I am studying Educational science (only to parts related to the school system, basically the same thing as Sociology and Psykology) I have read a lot of theories and opinions about what school is all about. I hoped to see discussions about how the school system could be the cause for the shootings, but they are nowhere to be seen; only guns  

So here comes some provocative theories/opinions about what school is about:

* Storage of 'not yet human beings' during daytime.

* A system to get rid of people that society dont want.

* Production of good employed and consuming but not reflecting citisens.

Ah, maybe its pointless - there are so many disgusting ideologies we hold dear here in the 'western world' that the school is just a tiny part. What really matters is GUNS in themselves, right?

Anyway, I'm off to bed, probably to check back after Barcelona GP tomorrow. See ya <span id='postcolor'>

I think that schools themselves are not to blame. It is more the East German environment than anything else that made things look really bad for that guy. Add to that that he wasn't very stable, and you can get a disastrous mix very badly. I read somewhere the suggestion that sport shooters should leave their guns at the shooting clubs. I agree, this is an excellent suggestions, people could be safe in the knowledge that no one has guns, sort of like in the UK.

Yes, I know there are gun crimes in the UK, but they are 2 digit figures, for a country with 60 million citizens....

A bit better than the US's statistics I would say.

Having said that, hasn't anyone noted how crime is prevalent in poor areas (of which the US has more than the average European country)?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 28 2002,04:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you look at the CIA world-fact-book you will see that the military of so called "dangerous countries" was emphasized after Bush took over.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, a good deal of those gun stats were compiled while Klinton was still in office. Klinton hated guns, and the military.

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

Wow, finally a good discussion!! No, I meant that the stats in the World-Fact-book have changed since Clinton. i am dead sure about it.......

[Renagade 0]

As far as i know in the UK if u have a license and own a gun u must have it in a locked box or maybe a box inside a box like a russian doll typ thing but im not sure about the last part.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You asked how many sport shooters kill people. I answered.<span id='postcolor'>

Criminals kill people, are you suggesting that I am a potential murderer?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And bringing in guns over the state line is very hard.. yeah right. Gun trade is not a local issue. You have to make a change within an entire area. Otherwise it is like saying "oh, look, I don't have a gun and yet criminals use guns".

<span id='postcolor'>

I never said smuggling anything was hard. If you were to ban all guns, then smuggled one would still get into the country.

Oh, WTF were you trying to say?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People don't report stolen guns<span id='postcolor'>

How the hell do you know? You are just speculating.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't deserve to have a gun because I am ready to give it up in hope of preventing killings? What the fuck is wrong with you mate? <span id='postcolor'>

Nothing is wrong with me. How would turning in your guns help solve a criminal problem? It would only help if you were a violent killer. Are you a violent killer?

I doubt it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, for instance the kid in Germany, if you want a very obvious answer. People get crazy and kill. Guns get stolen and are used in crimes. <span id='postcolor'>

How many sport shooters are there in Germany? Because of one lunatic, it justifies banning all guns and labeling all sport shooters like myself as potential criminals, shut up.

Tyler

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ April 28 2002,04:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As far as i know in the UK if u have a license and own a gun u  must have it in a locked box or maybe a box inside a box like a russian doll typ thing but im not sure about the last part.<span id='postcolor'>

You can't own handguns or rifles or anything, there are no licenses either.

Only firearms you are allowed to possess are shotguns that can't hold more than 3 shots.