Slow is smooth, Smooth is steady.

[Inimical_rize 1]

Hello all,

Long time player, short time forum user.. apologies for this but as I continue, you may understand.

I'm new to this forum but not forums in general, I'm a long time Arma player, from Arma 1 - OA, I've a wide knowledge base on all games from Scripting/Map making to being an effective 'Squadie' on a multilayer game.

My name is Josh, I've served in the British forces for over 5years, I've completed 2 tours of Afghanistan, 1 of Iraq and 1 of Kosovo, so during this time I've gathered some knowledge on how things 'Should work' during operations.

I say 'Should' because sometimes things never go as planned.

This game is outstanding when it comes to realism but there are a few things that I find inaccurate, See below.

1.Moving while scoped or sighted.

In game, when moving scoped and walking the scope/sight moves erratically.

(Do not confuse a cope with a sniper scope, ACOG is of a different standard and designed for C.Q.B and range)

A trained soldier can keep his aim on a target and move at a steady pace and continue to hit that target constantly.

AI Moving in C.Q.B

Using in AI in C.Q.B is an issue as well, as for them not watching the correct arc or walking they seem pretty much ineffective, even though they are placed into Danger/crouched ect..

How ever, I think they are brilliant when told to move to a specific area of a building and actually getting there. i.e move to house pos #5 and walking to the balcony i wanted them to move to.

If any one knows of fixes/mods to alter these problems please point me in the right dirrection!

Thank you for reading.

Inimcal_

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

So much for my knowledge of forums lol got confused with fire fox tabs, I posted into the wrong section this was intended for Arma OA > Suggestions > AI Suggestions.

Sorry all!

[Alpha-Kilo 36]

Re your 1:

I don't know whether you have tried this, but you can de-activate the head-movements while walking. This may not be perfect, but I think it helps a bit. But I still avoid walking with the sights up as much as possible.

Re your 2:

Do you use mods or do you play plain-vanilla? You might want to try "Group Link". Search Armaholic for this mod. It makes the AI a lot smarter.

I hope this helps.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Alpha-Kilo

[Inimical_rize 1]

Would Group link work on-line at all or just over lan?

[Wolfstriked 11]

Inimcal,I think the exaggerated effect of movement with sights up is done for a reason.There is no recoil animation when your moving so if it wasn't exaggerated there would be no weapon movement at all.

[giorgygr 61]

Inimcal,I think the exaggerated effect of movement with sights up is done for a reason.There is no recoil animation when your moving so if it wasn't exaggerated there would be no weapon movement at all.

Well..i understand the reason for this "exaggeration"..but

imho i believe a -50% "effect"will do more good than harm.. :cool:

[Inimical_rize 1]

Inimcal,I think the exaggerated effect of movement with sights up is done for a reason.There is no recoil animation when your moving so if it wasn't exaggerated there would be no weapon movement at all.

Never realised that, the only reason I've said the above is to show what it would be like if the game is heading for an even more extreme realism, It doesn't really cause a huge problem to be fair, as you can just go Burst or Auto on your target, but for Soldiers like me and a few other friends I have in various other armed forces we usually tend to go head to head in a C.Q.B environment.

[PuFu 4591]

I think this is not such a well know thing, so i am gonna post it here:

There are 2 speeds for SIghts up animation:

1. Sights up

2. Sights up then walk toggle button

Even so, the issue with the sights jumping all over the place when walking does 2 things in BI games:

a) leads to most contacts being dealt from a standing position (more accurate) even at short distances

b) shooting from hip at medium distances from a standing position as the recoil is just the same as it is from sights up.

The culprit is the actual animation, which has been fixed in A1 ACE version by actually replacing it. Unfortunately that same anim doesn't work anymore due to the bone system being changed for A2.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Dang that sucks.The new animations actually impede modders from working their magic then.It actually bothers me to no end.When crouched and moving sideways the weapon moves forward and backwards way too much is my biggest complaint.I would think to remove the excessive animation and put back in the recoil animation would be better.

[enforcer1975 0]

I wonder if BIS can solve this weapon sway problem by "disconnecting" the torso from the legs movement wise. I know what you mean about to much sway while moving, everyone who has held a weapon ( real or not ) should share the same opinion. Even in some videos you are shown how you should move with a weapon and there is almost no movement where the weapon is pointing.

It's the same problem when riding a bike. Your head is like stuck firmly on your shoulders like a camera on the tank cover allowing no movement ( f.e. nodding ) like you would normally do if you were actually riding a bike or a car if there are bumps.

[TommyC81 10]

Also posted about this earlier, the feel is like the soldier has two wooden legs while moving... A tad annoying and not very lifelike from my years in the service.

[enforcer1975 0]

Finally found it. Maybe one or the other BIS employee can take this as an example of how they should be moving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAHDgmWOkCE&feature=channel

[MJK-Ranger 0]

Finally found it. Maybe one or the other BIS employee can take this as an example of how they should be moving.

Your link don't work

DAHDgmWOkCE

[Serclaes 0]

Keep in mind that he is shooting a pistol. The System in ArmA needs to work equally for a pistol and for a machine gun like the M240.

A problem that is always bothering me in other games is that the one on the move is always in advantage of the well emplaced static one. It's mostly too easy to hit targets on the move. Especially tricks like constantly reversing directions while strafing have too low impact on accuracy.

Though i agree that the moving in ArmA is rather agressive and could be toned down a bit.

As it is forbidden to shoot on the move where i live, i can only ask you to elaborate how far out you could effectively engage targets while on the move (with and without changing direction). This could help a lot in developping the corresponding animations.

[Inimical_rize 1]

So every one can get a scope on how moving with a weapon should be (Service or Civvy or BIS DEV team) I strongly recommend people to look at 'The art of Tactical Carbine' this video basically shows you how to move and how to best acquire targets in various situations, as well as my regular service I get employed by a C.P firm working in areas of conflict I'd previously visited with the army.

Glad to see positive feedback in here, i thought this thread was going to be shot down by the people who 'think they know, or in fact.. COD lovers.' no offence it's a good game but to be placed in the brackets of 'Realistic'..................... (this sarcastic pause could potentially last for a few years)

EDIT: Link

I had problems with my internet so I had to acquire the link via some one else's laptop but i believe BIS and game modders could learn a thing or to, and maybe implement various movements into the game?

Edited July 26, 2010 by Inimcal_

[enforcer1975 0]

You mean Magpuls videos? I'm planning to get them someday although i won't have any use for the content anyway. Just because it interests me.

With the videos at least people should see what is meant when comparing ArmA movement and RL movement and what BIS could improve in-game. They've done a lot, but they have left major things like the animations almost untouched, which is imo the most important thing that should be redone because you actually see it "24/7" when playing ArmA.

@Serclaes

There should be a difference between pistols/smgs,rifles and machine guns.

It's obvious that holding a machine gun on high ready is already difficult enough than holding a smg f.e. ( that's maybe 6-7 or more kg vs. 1-1.5 kg ) let alone move in that stance.

[Inimical_rize 1]

Keep in mind that he is shooting a pistol. The System in ArmA needs to work equally for a pistol and for a machine gun like the M240.

Though i agree that the moving in ArmA is rather agressive and could be toned down a bit.

As it is forbidden to shoot on the move where i live, i can only ask you to elaborate how far out you could effectively engage targets while on the move (with and without changing direction). This could help a lot in developing the corresponding animations.

Depending on the situation, you wouldn't take a LMG/GPMG/M240 or any belt fed weapon in to a compound or a enclosed built up environment because the sheer fire power they put out would be you would wound or possibly kill your OPPO because of ricochets.

My personal best is, whilst moving straight to the target it never falters, every round 100mtrs + with a pistol - rifle (7.62mm maximum), obviously a pistols accuracy decreases after 80-90mtrs, I never engage a target at over 100mtrs with a pistol.

Whilst erratic movement, cover to cover or out of doorways or window popping

Pistols - 80mtrs 3 rounds 2 on target. ( I suck with the pistol, So i tend to take more ammo for my P.W)

Rifle/SMG - 100 - 150+mtrs Usually every round.

Just so you all know, I'm some what of a specialist at C.Q.B warfare or f.i.b.u.a or o.b.u.a, what ever you want to call it.

[Serclaes 0]

Depending on the situation, you wouldn't take a LMG/GPMG/M240 or any belt fed weapon in to a compound or a enclosed built up environment because the sheer fire power they put out would be you would wound or possibly kill your OPPO because of ricochets.

You and i wouldn't but you know those people running around as medic with a M107, a javelin on back and a satchel charge in the bag. ;)

I wish there could be a difference, unfortunately you can't change the animation on a per rifle basis. That's why it has to be working for everything.

My personal best is, whilst moving straight to the target it never falters, every round 100mtrs + with a pistol - rifle (7.62mm maximum), obviously a pistols accuracy decreases after 80-90mtrs, I never engage a target at over 100mtrs with a pistol.

Whilst erratic movement, cover to cover or out of doorways or window popping

Pistols - 80mtrs 3 rounds 2 on target. ( I suck with the pistol, So i tend to take more ammo for my P.W)

Rifle/SMG - 100 - 150+mtrs Usually every round.

Just so you all know, I'm some what of a specialist at C.Q.B warfare or f.i.b.u.a or o.b.u.a, what ever you want to call it.

This is pretty far out. :eek:

I wish i could do it myself or see a video through the sights to see how much the sight is moving. But juding from the distance and guessing 1 round every second (probably faster) that's a pretty good rate of fire with high accuracy.

But as i said, i fear that less movement could give and advantage to those lag supported strafers.

[Firehead 0]

Its all fine and dandy if you're a "CQB/*FISH/FIBUA/OBUA specialist", as you're claiming, but not everyone is. The way I look at it for stuff like this is not every soldier is that "well trained". Yes, they are proficient at MOUT, but they are hardly competition shooters. You gotta look at how Army and Marine doctrine for warfighting has shifted over the years. It used to be fire and manuever based, with aimed fire being needed, not 100% required(take a look at US Army qualification standards). Over the years with recent conflicts like Iraq, we have slowly started to shift towards individual marksmanship, and more complicated subjects like our MOUT doctrines, and COIN(Counter Insurgency) strategy. The older NCOs and Officers are finally starting to understand the complete need for the focus on advanced close quarters fighting because of these things. A lot of the things we are learning from those conflicts have completely changed our techniques for close up fighting(compare say 1999 MOUT training with 2010 MOUT training, you'll see a huge difference in techniques).

Not every shooter on the battlefield is a hooah-hooah-ranger-special-forces-sniper-operator. Since not everyone is a highspeed gunfighter, and game limitations allow only certain animations to be used for EVERYONE, they have to make it more realistic on an overall scale. This kind of thing is just like the stamina-based arguments for ACE2 when it was coming out. There are also a lot more considerations when comparing flat ranges to the 2 way shooting ranges that really determine how the game should play out than just how the individual is walking.

Tankers aren't going to be skilled like infantryman, and infantryman won't be skilled like tankers, so on and so forth(pilots fixedwing/rotarywing, gunbunnies(artillery), ect).

*Fighting In Someone's House

On the note of AI: They do need to have something to keep the AI from proning out in towns. You'd never catch me laying down in a city, unless I was dead, bleeding, or extremely exposed(like on a rooftop where I'm silhouetted).

Edited July 27, 2010 by Firehead

[Inimical_rize 1]

You and i wouldn't but you know those people running around as medic with a M107, a javelin on back and a satchel charge in the bag. ;)

I wish there could be a difference, unfortunately you can't change the animation on a per rifle basis. That's why it has to be working for everything.

Each to their own in-game if you ask me, I prefer to act and behave as a real soldier as I enjoy doing it

Not every shooter on the battlefield is a hooah-hooah-ranger-special-forces-sniper-operator.

I've not claimed to be any of the above, My skill set is poor compared to theirs.

[frederf 0]

You should have seen ArmA several months ago. When walking sighted your eyes were bolted to your sights. You always had a perfect sight picture but you absolutely wanted to throw up because your eye point was moving around like mad.

Now they made the eye point stead and let the rifle bobble in your hands. Now I guess you're saying that the bobble is too much. It also doesn't help that the CCO or similar parallax-compensating sights don't work properly with a disturb alignment.

Also note that about 10-20% head wobble in the options seems (to me) to be the most realistic.

[Inimical_rize 1]

Yes, I just decreased it to see what would happen, it is a little more realistic, but if a soldier needed to he could move around a compound or an area like that, even an open field and as I said before keep the sight trained on a target or a possible hostile area, maybe walking through a field toward a house with the sights on the window, obviously with the way the games made the closer you get the more the 'bobble/sight picture' would stay within the confines of the window.

[Wolfstriked 11]

^^How did you decrease it and could you make a mod?

[Fireball 16]

^^How did you decrease it and could you make a mod?

Head bob is a regular configuration option; reduced it to 10% in order to avoid motion sickness on my part.

[whisper 0]

As said above, 1st thing to do is to reduce headbob to nearly zero, if not zero

After that, if I'm not mistaken the gun movement itself is tied to the animation of the soldier (unlike any other game, the gun movement is really following the soldier's animation in A2, it's not a "fake" movement not tied to what one see when the soldier's move).

These animations are made by recording real-time movement of a real guy. So they are pretty accurate, in my eyes, in that they are simple recording of a true human.

Now, maybe the guy was not moving correctly when they recorded :)

Issue is, these recording sessions, and transfert to animations, cost a lot of time and money. I'm afraid changing them will not happen in a patch

[wamingo 1]

Issue is, these recording sessions, and transfered to animations, cost a lot of time and money. I'm afraid changing them will not happen in a patch

How is BIS managing to change the normal standing recoil? Isn't that tied to an animation too?

I would have thought they had some control over how much the weapon is swaying, but even if nothing can be done in realtime, ie some basic inverse kinematic control over particular joints (the hands/gun point), it should be possible to edit the animation directly in the same fashion.

Although it may be motioncap, it can easily have been exaggerated - like acting often is.

I don't think it's a major issue to do something about it, it's probably more a case of BIS being too busy with whatever they're doing to have everything perfectly polished and accurate.