Friendly Ai are worse shots that Enemy Ai

Ive noticed that my Ai with expert and 100 percent of thier bar on at the highest possible settings are all being taken out by a single enemy ai. Mods i use are ace 2 and whatever mods are in CoWarMod

Might be bad leadership. A.I. dont do thing of their own in a group very good they need input. The A.I. leader of the opposnig group is just better than you. A.I. used soem crude tactics at contact that is still better than none.

Just make yourself the lowest subordibnate in a A.I.team and you will see what I mean.

btw an equal 1:1 engagement will often mean all men on both sides dead.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Beagle

I dont mean how to ai maneuveur, But i mean in reagards to the accuracy of the Ai, I watched an "elite" squad of ai, 4 of them, (my team members), get gunned down by a single ai with novice and 50 % of his bar full, and my ai just walked around him while he gunned them down never returning a shot, them in a firefight 1 ai from `150m with an ak and no nightvision gunned down me and my entire squad while i watch my team memebers fire everyshot ABOVE his head, and he shot straight at us, killing my team with less than a single clip, of an AK!!!!!!!! i dont understand the problem.

Friendly AI are better shots than enemy AI with default settings.

But accuracy levels are less important than position and tactics.

I wasn't there but I can speculate that the enemy was prone and calm. When he started firing at your men, the bullets landed nearby, suppressing them and making their aim shaky. When they returned fire, they were standing or kneeling and couldn't control their recoil. Also, they were trying to stay in formation with you, and thus paid attention to movement and facing while the enemy worried about shooting and shooting alone.

Skill settings don't affect accuracy.

Oh wow i didnt even think of it that way, i guess slow and steady does win the race

Friendly AI are most effective when they are stationary and just waiting for the enemy to walk into their sights. And the enemy AI will usually oblige. If someone has to forge ahead and flush them out, the player is the best for the job.

I guess we'll have to wait for arma 3 for ai micro management and Cqb, as well as more fluid, human like AI

I guess we'll have to wait for arma 3 for ai micro management and Cqb, as well as more fluid, human like AI

Better don't count on that. In ArmA series the A.I. dont cheat like in other shootersm thgey have to process situation. You will see when you follow my advice annd learn how A.I. works in a team by playing as the lowest ranking subordinate in a 8 A.I. team with some waypoints and a enemy force of the same number. You have to understabd how the A.I. works to know what they can do and what not. Be a good leader and aviod to bring A.I. in situations it can't handle...like beeing exposed to Snipers or MG or vehicles in the open etc. RL you would also avoid such situation at all cost by making a way around the open field. Tactical manouvering is not about speed at all, its about ariving in one peace. Beeing first never wins a battle...beeig the last one standing is. Edited December 17, 2011 by Beagle

I guess we'll have to wait for arma 3 for ai micro management and Cqb, as well as more fluid, human like AI

I don't know if they've ever said anything about the things you're mentioning... They said something about animations...

And this comes out of left field. I believe it was already said a number of times why the defender has the advantage in ArmA (and also in real life). What does micro management have to do with it? What more micro management do you need? You have the command view, two different command systems, and all kinds of aides. Are you trying to say again that it's some kind of flaw with ArmA that your 'elite' squad got whiped out by bumbling into the sights of some guy with an assault rifle?

What does micro management have to do with it? What more micro management do you need?

I dont know it would be nice to be able to say 3 on breach u go left 4 go right and 5 on me. Not just 5 move 50 meters west. and when it gets there its basically a rock with a gun.

Are you trying to say again that it's some kind of flaw with ArmA that your 'elite' squad got whiped out by bumbling into the sights of some guy with an assault rifle?

yes i do think its a flaw, when i tell ai to get to cover they slowly walk around crouching, not IMMEDIATLY going to cover to avoid fire, and ok im a bad leader a man got shot everyone in the team should go MG!!!!!!/ SNIPER!!!!

and move to cover not have me need to stop and route each ai individually domewhere where they only half listen.

Agree with the previous Posters here.

A good Idea would be to build up some simple Scenarios in the Editor, and train your AI Commanding Skills with them. :)

3 on breach u go left 4 go right

It´s always there with "Flank left/Flank right". :)

Edited December 17, 2011 by Humvee28

Read this topic (at least the last ten posts), it's well written and informative about player's AI exepriences.

not IMMEDIATLY going to cover to avoid fire, and

If they ran out like lemmings everyone would be complaining about that. Personally, I think that the self preservation thing is better.

ok im a bad leader

Inexperienced :)

a man got shot everyone in the team should go MG!!!!!!/ SNIPER!!!!

I don't know what that means.

and move to cover not have me need to stop and route each ai individually domewhere where they only half listen.

I think you can just tell them to 'take cover'.

All AIs have a problem with precision mostly because they can't control their recoil properly. Broken since 1.54 I think.

That's one part of the problem you have.

The other is that you need to command them. You need to tell them who to shoot as just like humans they don't know if their current target is of more tactical importance than what you as a commander think.

Most valuable targets are ARs/MGs, team leaders and snipers/marksmen. AIs usually gives them highest priority which is right. But often they may not see them and engage who they see so you need to designate targets on your own. Playing coop with humans as a team/squad leader isn't different.

Edited December 17, 2011 by metalcraze

If they ran out like lemmings everyone would be complaining about that. Personally, I think that the self preservation thing is better.

Be honest. They run around like lemmings when they should stay in cover and they waddle around checking corners when they should be sprinting for cover.

An experienced squad commander doesn't get the AI to behave as well as humans, he learns their limitations and avoids situations where they come into play.

the reason they run around, is because squad leader gives single men attack orders.

AI perform amazing, if you do this on every single group:

(group this) enableAttack false

this works great for fireteam groups - I dont spawn full ai squads anymore, just 3 fireteams with this command, makes them all take cover behind a single rock, suppress and move and engage when they deem it appropriate (usually when another fireteam is firing at the enemy)

here is an example:

i created 3 fireteams and turned off attack orders using code above in group leaders init, gave them a waypoint near a rock, each team was at a different point of cover. Then I created 7 groups of insurgents, and gave them a wp to the fire team positions, and observed:

result:

all fireteams took cover behind same obstacle, some other members went to the next nearby cover (hay stack for ex) all faced direction of fire, all shooting behind cover, MG fireteams were suppressing behind rock cover to great effect, insurgents were suppressed, and eliminated one by one. No body was ditching cover going off on their own - insurgents however were trying to attack separately because ai leader giving them attack orders, and they did not obey cover or anything - they just attacked in the open.

repeated this same fight again with enableAttack set to false on insurgent groups: result:

at contact, everyone took cover behind something, facing appropriate direction, and the engagement was stretched out even more, both groups suppressing teams, with the insurgent groups moving up when they deemed appropriate. Looked alot like suppress, move until they reached and destroyed the 3 fireteams behind the rocks.

NO AI mods were used, just standard AI. So problem is the individual orders to attack targets that make ai fail.

anyway, as for you commanding ai - best thing to do is to split members into teams, order teams to suppress, and 1 team to move, and keep bunny hopping in this fashion and progress will be made. or you can try an L-assault, with main line of fire suppressing fire, and 1 team moving in on flank to engage them from closer range and destroy them.

That's a fascinating discovery, Igneous. I will have to try that out for myself.

How does a squad behave if it's given a Destroy or Move waypoint with enableAttack false?

Do

A lot of text

I did that, it improved the AI behavior a lot.

You deserve a goddamn medal.

All AIs have a problem with precision mostly because they can't control their recoil properly. Broken since 1.54 I think.

I was not aware of this? Is BIS looking to have this fixed? I do know friendly AI is awful at most times with firing accuracy. Absurdly so at times...

I have run some more tests with it on in a more controlled environment to see if my findings are correct.

when you turn off attack orders, the squad leader will only focus on moving to his waypoint and completing it - afterwards he will stay put.

What I have found is that, whether he issues orders on or off, the ai squad leader WILL NOT TAKE COVER once he has finished his waypoint, if the squad was not given any waypoints (so they stay where they were created) and come under fire, the ai squad leader will ONLY go PRONE and STAY THERE - AI SQUAD LEADERS DO NOT TAKE COVER WHEN WAYPOINTS ARE FINISHED, nor do they engage targets (unless he orders himself to attack a target, which only happens when entire squad is dead).

so some tests with 12 USMC vs 12 RU in Utes village, each moving to the village from the opposite side.

vanilla (nothing in init)

squads move, see each other, and squad leaders will go prone and take cover, until they reach their waypoint. Once they were finished with the waypoint, they sat there the entire time. units were scattering everywhere mostly taking cover and moving to attack their intended target. not much cooperation between member units - units were taking cover individually and away from other units, they were not supporting each other at all, unless they ended up moving to the same spot of cover. some were running around alot on open streets for sometime.

USMC squad enableAttack false

both squads move in, see each other, and ai leaders do the exact same as above. however, USMC squad is still in formation, so units were taking cover, but with other units along side them in formation - they looked like proper fireteams with 4-5 men in cover in the same area each watching a different direction - they had maximum security. No units were walking out of cover, all USMC units were in cover, and engaging from their cover. Russian units were both in/out of cover, they were not covering each other, so they ended up loosing the fight because they were individually popping out and getting shot by a much more secure USMC squad.

both squads enableAttack false

both see each other, ai leaders do exact same as above, however, since both units are in formation, they both stay in formation with squad leader and take cover. some good shooting happens between the units, but once the leaders finish waypoint, and members are in formation (while in cover) they do not fight after that - instead everyone is now in cover covering some direction, and so no one can engage because no one bothers moving to attack the other team - they get stuck essentially. They know that the enemy is right around the corner, but no one wants to go take a peak, they are happy where they are, and stay that way indefinitely (however one or two people do fire a bit at each other)

so, problem here is, is that the squad leader is the worst unit in the group - he does not take cover when he has no waypoints, and he does not move or engage when he finishes one. Also, units dont fight well when the leader issues individual attack commands to units. They also have problems staying in cover, they are mostly 50/50 in cover like this, no one is watching their back when they move out of it.

so really, what needs to be fixed is the ai leader needs to be able to give himself a lowlevel move command to nearby cover, and he needs stop giving orders to 1 unit, but give orders to 2 or 4 units instead, because like this these 4 units will stay in formation and provide security for each other, which looks better and translates into better ai combat ability.

I think BIS needs to rework this attack system - split ai groups into teams upon start up (divide them by either 2 for fireteams, or 3 for squads) and make ai leaders issue attack orders to teams of 4 to attack another TEAM of 4.

but these are just some observations after watching the same fight 6 times.

what im taking from this so far, is ai only work on the macro level, and look cool but are not functional. 1000 vs 1000 ai will shoot follow waypoints fire, and support each other.

But a squad of 5 Navy seals for example, wont show any kind of tactical knowledge, and 1 shoots from behind a wall and other squad mates run to the next cover insinctively, etc

I love this kind of testing!

Confused as to what

 squad enableAttack false

is actually doing? At first glance it would seem to disable attacking as in Hold Fire but reading your report - they were clearly firing and winning. Does this disable Squad commanding?

so really, what needs to be fixed is the ai leader needs to be able to give himself a lowlevel move command to nearby cover, and he needs stop giving orders to 1 unit, but give orders to 2 or 4 units instead, because like this these 4 units will stay in formation and provide security for each other, which looks better and translates into better ai combat ability.

I think BIS needs to rework this attack system - split ai groups into teams upon start up (divide them by either 2 for fireteams, or 3 for squads) and make ai leaders issue attack orders to teams of 4 to attack another TEAM of 4.

Where this gets tricky is what if some of the units are Helos/Aircraft/Armor? The open-ness of the editor and ability to make squads almost any size with any makeup of units is also the downfall of tight AI commanding. Most games with AI tactical command limit fireteams to small sizes for I'm guessing this exact reason.

what im taking from this so far, is ai only work on the macro level, and look cool but are not functional. 1000 vs 1000 ai will shoot follow waypoints fire, and support each other.

But a squad of 5 Navy seals for example, wont show any kind of tactical knowledge, and 1 shoots from behind a wall and other squad mates run to the next cover insinctively, etc

No, that's wrong.

On the micro level the AI understands cover, suppression, flanking and bounding overwatch.

Froggyluv: I think he means it prevents Engage commands, as opposed to Target commands. There is a clear difference, or was before BIS fucked the unit command up the ass again.

And for the records, if you put six men on a map and shoot at them, you will usually get flanked and assaulted by two men. The AI definitely understands and employs the concept of fireteam assault using bounding overwatch. I have no idea why the one man suicide rushes happen so often in person. Perhaps it's because the very efficient squad leader has every other member of the squad watching specific enemies.

Edited December 17, 2011 by maturin

I love this kind of testing!

Confused as to what

 squad enableAttack false

is actually doing? At first glance it would seem to disable attacking as in Hold Fire but reading your report - they were clearly firing and winning. Does this disable Squad commanding?

I believe it disables the AI leader giving targets. I don't remember though. It prevents the units from running off on their own though. They stick together and it is always a lot more fun fighting them. Although combining them may be even more fun.

@Igneous-

In your test, try giving them guard waypoints. That way the AI leaders will still go after each other after the waypoints.

Confused as to what

 squad enableAttack false

Well, I think it makes AI squad leaders not make single units run off and attack enemies, breaking formation of the fireteam and just fucking up order in the squad.