Recoil (again)

[Chumba 10]

Having had a go at playing in earnest I'm not liking the displaced recoil - after a while it gets tedious fighting my weapon as much as fighting the enemy.

Ultimately there's a lot to be said for the return to origin model in the context of making for something that is engaging, useful and fun for gameplay. The big thing for me is screen jump - which is a keeper - but as soon as I can figure out how, I'm personally going to put recentering back into my game.

[MavericK96 0]

I agree about the displacement. It seems way too exaggerated to the point where you're constantly pulling your mouse downward just to get back on target. I have no problem with slight adjustment after a couple shots, but as-is it's kind of ridiculous.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Maverick have you tried the M4 or M16 from RH?It has a very small recoil and so it feels real good even on auto.Then try RH AK102.It is a larger recoil and is slightly harder to control.Then try RH AKM and its terrible with no control at all on auto.Since AK102 is a 5.56x45 like the M4 family it should be doing the same climb close to what the M4 achieves with extreme minute variances due to velocity etc.Slightly higher than what is used for the AK102 could be used for 7.62 rifles with variances again due to different said rifles.The AKM recoil amount needs to go.

That said,I have pointed this out before and no one took...the mouse sensitivity lessens as you zoom.Try this experiemnt to see what I mean.Bring up iron sight and fire on full auto and then zoom in while firing...all of a sudden the recoil becomes a huge amount stronger.This is with iron sights so the effect is magnified with scopes and the M40 with its too little recoil per shot and ease of handling becomes a nightmare while zoomed in.

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

^^^Edit I shouldn't mention RH weapon pack as the OA weapons are rather good.Its IMO the zoom effect that is making it feel uncontrollable.Maybe also they could remove the dexterity setting or set to zero when prone.Would make weapon easier to handle then.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Wolfstriked

[Chumba 10]

Ahh... - yes, you might have hit the nail there Wolfstriked.

[MavericK96 0]

Maverick have you tried the M4 or M16 from RH?

I have not. Link?

[Wolfstriked 11]

Here you go.Its a nice weapon pack but I also feel that OA weapons are good just more tweaking per weapon.It seems there is very little variance of recoil size per weapon.Its like they are all the same actually.Could be the dexterity of each weapon masking the recoil,lots of variables effecting the individual feel of the different weapons.The M4A1 custom feels real nice,great sound and nice kickback effect!

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=8056

[WyndonP 10]

I'd suggest, that instead of creating something that is creating such strong feelings for either side of the argument- love or hate the lack of reset- that BIS make it a selectable setting, a la the head bob slider or something you can turn either on or off, like camera shake. That way the ones who think it's the bee's knees can run it as high as they like, and those others who dislike it can shut it off or decrease it to an enjoyable point for them. Best of both worlds. ;)

BIS is trying to replicate the effect of shooting offhand, which I can respect. Shooting while standing with no support is a tough thing to do well and it's why you seldom see anyone doing it rapidly. I think BIS' version may be a bit high for what is ultimately a game, but I can understand where they're headed with it. The shooters amongst us here will identify with trying to shoot offhand at any appreciable range (100 yards or better) and try and hit a torso or head size target. Now try and double or triple tap and you get an idea of what BIS is trying to do with the new effect. It's nearly impossible with a real weapon and hit what you want to. That said, I'd like to have the ability to tailor it to my tastes.

[Alex72 1]

Turning weapon recoil off is not an option. That will be cheating as it gets easier for those who turn it off. However as said - if newcomers have problems with it then at lower settings (recruit or lower) the recoil can be friendlier.

Personally i love the recoil. I hit everything i want to hit and it feels more "alive" than just going up and to the right everytime plus re-centers perfectly. Too easy imo.

[mr.g-c 6]

Recoil and climb is fine in the Demo IMHO, i would even say the MK17s need a bit bigger "climb"...

For the Ironsight/Animation issue.

See my old suggestion here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=67108&highlight=ironsights

Edited July 22, 2010 by mr.g-c

[cyclone83 6]

Again, this would be called "possibility of cheating", so this option unfortunately won't get implementet I'm afraid.

[MavericK96 0]

It doesn't need to be turned off or reverted back, just tweaked some more for certain weapons (whatever you are given in Laser Show (MK16? 17? not sure) comes to mind as being way too jumpy)

[WyndonP 10]

Turning weapon recoil off is not an option. That will be cheating as it gets easier for those who turn it off.

Reading comprehension 101:

I never said "turning weapon recoil off". I said "reset". That is, returning to point of aim. There can be a certain amount of float to return of point of aim factored in and depending on the slider setting or toggle, it can be removed, just like the aiming dead zone and head bob that already exists in game. I never even came close to recommending eliminating recoil in my post.

I like realism in my game, I just am saying there are certain points where it starts being far too real and stops being fun, i.e., ACE's stamina system, which is the first thing I yank out upon every update. There are a lot of people that don't want to have to fight the reticle back to point of aim after every shot and chase rounds all over the place at 100m. Yeah, it prolongs firefights but it also gets you killed, adding to a player's frustration. That I understand.

I'm not saying I'd use the slider or that I even want it, I'm just playing devil's advocate and supporting the idea of choice or running the game at one's choice of more or less of an arcade type setting. It's already possible for MP servers to choose certain parameters, forcing the use of patches, difficulty settings, etc., why not have a reset parameter that will give a level playing field if the fear is that some's reset is different than yours?

[frederf 0]

In no way can the "100% automatic return to point of aim" be an option. Not only is that backpedaling in terms of realism, it would give the old-style user an unacceptable shooting performance advantage. Your personal CoD-standard definition of "fun" aside, the rest of us want ArmA to continue on its mission. This is not a "difficulty option" but an evolution in the modeling of the universe in ArmA like how helicopter flight changed in ArmA1 from OFP. Plenty of people mistakenly asked for it to be an option or difficulty option then as well.

Asking for the old aiming simulation as an option is akin to asking if you could have the option of being taught that the sun goes around the earth instead of the new Copernican model.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Frederf

[50.cal 10]

what happened with the camera shake effect on latest beta btw?? seems it as been removed...

[Chumba 10]

I've put 1000's of rounds thru a variety of real world weapons and if I may say so myself am quite a decent shot - and altho I intitially thought the displaced recoil in OA was ok, after actually playing for a while it's become really irritating and IMO absolutely DOESN'T return anything like I'd consider to be a facsimile / simulation of firing real weapons.

The screen shake is excellent and if it's been removed - DAMN!!!!!!! (I haven't tried that latest I have to admit), but the displacement is no good.

Compared to real life all the weapons in OA feel like their fore grips are broken or I'm firing with my left hand behind my back or something. Returning aim to origin is a virtually entirely involuntary REFLEX that a shooter performs - and OA simply doesn't return any facsimile / simulation of that. Wanking the mouse is NOT the same in any way shape or imaginary form as actual shooting.

[WildBill 0]

I've put 1000's of rounds thru a variety of real world weapons and if I may say so myself am quite a decent shot - and altho I intitially thought the displaced recoil in OA was ok, after actually playing for a while it's become really irritating and IMO absolutely DOESN'T return anything like I'd consider to be a facsimile / simulation of firing real weapons.

The screen shake is excellent and if it's been removed - DAMN!!!!!!! (I haven't tried that latest I have to admit), but the displacement is no good.

Compared to real life all the weapons in OA feel like their fore grips are broken or I'm firing with my left hand behind my back or something. Returning aim to origin is a virtually entirely involuntary REFLEX that a shooter performs - and OA simply doesn't return any facsimile / simulation of that. Wanking the mouse is NOT the same in any way shape or imaginary form as actual shooting.

I would agree with Chumba here. Training develops muscle 'memory' that is akin to a reflex action; I have handled and trained others with various small arms in my past professional duties, and the actions to absorb recoil and reposition a firearm is significantly different than the (much more) conscious process of jerking your mouse back to position 'x' after each shot. I do agree that the old way (where your weapon went back to rest at the same exact position) is not realistic, but the "new' way simply creates a different unrealistic issue. A good, realistic compromise from my experience would be to automatically bring the weapon perhaps 80% of the way back to a (slightly) different position.

I also will point out that the AI appears to NOT need to reposition their weapon after each shot, which gives them a patently unfair advantage in effective sustained ROF.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Now try and double or triple tap and you get an idea of what BIS is trying to do with the new effect. It's nearly impossible with a real weapon and hit what you want to. That said, I'd like to have the ability to tailor it to my tastes.

Good point... Except that last part :) I want my shooting to feel consistent no matter what difficulty the server is running. And I want the same difficulty to be forced down the throats of my opponents. Do it with a mod. Such a mod won't be accepted on a PvP server for obvious reasons, and I can choose to deny such a mod on our own server.

In fact, I'd even go further, and say not to allow camera shake to be controllable (unless allowed on the server via mods). Apparently it does affect my shooting ability more than I first expected. It doesn't even feel wrong during periods of rather low FPS, which was my greatest fear (in the same sense as motion blur is experienced worse for players with bad FPS).

I also will point out that the AI appears to NOT need to reposition their weapon after each shot, which gives them a patently unfair advantage in effective sustained ROF.

Except of course that AI accuracy can be adjusted, AI doesn't care if it shoots while lying down taking out a few of his own in the process, and AI machinegunners happily shoot while standing not hitting anything with their rounds. I fail to see their unfair advantage.

Recoil and climb is fine in the Demo IMHO, i would even say the MK17s need a bit bigger "climb"...

Is the demo recoil/climb different from the beta recoil/climb?

Edited July 24, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[WildBill 0]

Good point... Except that last part :)

Except of course that AI accuracy can be adjusted, AI doesn't care if it shoots while lying down taking out a few of his own in the process, and AI machinegunners happily shoot while standing not hitting anything with their rounds. I fail to see their unfair advantage.

Allow me to state again exactly what I stated previously with a bit of emphasis to point out the issue I was speaking to:

"...patently unfair advantage in effective sustained ROF".

The other AI issues you speak of are exactly that, i.e. other issues; BI should address those as well.

[afp 1]

Good point... Except that last part :) I want my shooting to feel consistent no matter what difficulty the server is running

Agree with that, the recoil should be consistent. Making configurations per difficulty can create even more problems.

[wamingo 1]

what happened with the camera shake effect on latest beta btw?? seems it as been removed...

Seems to work fine for me. Check your difficulty settings. It's off by default in Recruit mode, I believe.

[50.cal 10]

Seems to work fine for me. Check your difficulty settings. It's off by default in Recruit mode, I believe.

Well it's still there but it seems it has been lowered to a level where I can't notice it with many weapons.

Instead It should be increased specially while aiming (using the sight).

More camera shake and less up going barrel would be perfect.

In full auto the reposition of small barrel weapons should be more random while staying within a defined circle.

Other MGs should be very stable while lying prone but please...more camera shake effect too! This really add the kick back feeling you have while you aim and shoot for real.

Also there's something wrong with the ratio aiming difficulty/effect on target. When you carefully place a shot and hit the target, the result should be more noticeable.

The ai doesn't seems to feel anything until they simply die. It's like on or off.

We know it has been reported that some wounded enemies did fire back on the battlefield. Nevertheless I don't think it means that they all do that. Specially when they physically can't. We're not throwing rocks at them, these are bullets flying at more than 900m/s.

Isn't there a way to improve how AI are damaged and reacts to recorded hits? Something making it more "believable". I mean a single 7.62 deadly bullet hit in the leg doesn't help to make it believable either.

Sorry for that last part being a bit out of topic...

Edited July 24, 2010 by 50.cal

[bensdale 0]

Yes more camara shake would be nice in my opinion.

[Inimical_rize 1]

The recoil will be an issue in this game until the DEVs pace them selves behind an actual I.W (infantry weapon) and fire it at various ranges at various targets, Coming from the British army and having an outstanding knowledge of how to best use basic I.W's (4years - CPL (Section commander)

When in prone m249 or LMG/GPMG's wouldnt kick that much, a well trained soldier can keep rounds on a piece of a4 paper at 600mtrs with minimal splash around the targets, I think a down tone of the recoil would reduce this issue and increase realism.

[Arksa 10]

When in prone m249 or LMG/GPMG's wouldnt kick that much, a well trained soldier can keep rounds on a piece of a4 paper at 600mtrs with minimal splash around the targets, I think a down tone of the recoil would reduce this issue and increase realism.

Yeah currently they make the characters appear as civilians without much weapon training.

[Wolfstriked 11]

DO NOT RELY on BI for this.They do not have time to be pursuing perfection for each weapon instead doing broad changes for effect.I don't blame them and I would just leave as is and put option for use original or new recoil.That said I think modding community should come together on this issue.Work weapons one at a time with input from real world weapon of choice users and the community itself.For example is the SCAR.I watched a video of it where the shooters were saying it felt really good on single shot but kicked like crazy on auto.Other guns have known characteristics we could try to implement like the M16 with little felt recoil and the SAW with ability to lay down fire on piece of paper while prone.

Is their a list for spray pattern size at varying distances for each real weapon?That would help this out but I have never found one searching the net.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Wolfstriked