Recoil (again)

[no use for a name 0]

I like the latest recoil; except when prone. You can't even do 3-5 rnd bursts with a SAW because it still kicks the barrel waaayy up. Last night during MP I couldn't even lay suppressing fire for my team because after 4 or 5 rounds it was shooting 50 feet over their heads, and the spread was horrendous. I had to do single-round shots to even get close; and if they were running...there was no hope.

I think when prone your aim should auto-center (since the weapon is laying on the ground), so you can at least get some decent groups with bursts. I wanted to also suggest making it shake your screen a little more so it's a little harder to follow your target; but still possible to hit them (trying to simulate the gun kicking back more than up while prone).

However I really like the standing and kneeling recoil; seems pretty accurate.

Edited July 14, 2010 by No Use For A Name

[MavericK96 0]

Yeah, I don't know if it's been altered in ACE or not, but I was playing some ACE Combined Operations earlier and, using a PKM while prone, the recoil was totally manageable. But then using other assault rifles, even while prone, the recoil seems unbearable. Just needs some tweaking, IMO.

[no use for a name 0]

Hmmm, haven't tried the PKM (or most of the other rifles). I'll have to test it out to see if it's maybe a few specific weapons.

[metalcraze 290]

Assault rifles do need tweaking.

I have absolutely no problem hitting targets at 100-150m away with the new recoil, but it still needs to be toned down a bit, because after only 2-3 shots the barrel still gets misplaced a bit too harshly.

[Fox '09 14]

whatever happens, keep the "kick" :(

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I like the latest recoil; except when prone. You can't even do 3-5 rnd bursts with a SAW because it still kicks the barrel waaayy up. Last night during MP I couldn't even lay suppressing fire for my team because after 4 or 5 rounds it was shooting 50 feet over their heads, and the spread was horrendous. I had to do single-round shots to even get close; and if they were running...there was no hope.

I think when prone your aim should auto-center (since the weapon is laying on the ground), so you can at least get some decent groups with bursts. I wanted to also suggest making it shake your screen a little more so it's a little harder to follow your target; but still possible to hit them (trying to simulate the gun kicking back more than up while prone).

However I really like the standing and kneeling recoil; seems pretty accurate.

Are you sure your beta is working? I can hit popup targets consistently at 200m and 300m with fully controlled bursts when prone with the M249 (and scoped version). It takes a quarter mag burst (50 rounds, you wouldn't do that though) to climb out of the rear post. You may have to "work the gun" a little for long bursts, but it doesn't take long to get used to that.

[sethos 2]

ACE adds a heap of kick on top of the Beta recoil.

[fatty86 10]

If I recall correctly, BIS says the recoil is a work in progress. I think they said they are looking into ways to simulate bipod stabilization and weapon-resting in future patches.

[Heatseeker 0]

The M240 is kicking too much while prone, even with short bursts.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I don't know honestly. At 700m using the scoped M240 I can hit point targets with relative ease. I have to use the 500m stadia though, but I'm not 100% sure how this scope is supposed to "work". This is with very short bursts of 2-3 rounds; hit every time.

Although it does climb a bit (enhanced by the scope), I don't find it too much at least without proper support. If anything, I'd say it's a bit too accurate.

Heh, even with the scoped SAW I'm able to hit my targets at 700m (but then using the 600m stadia), yikes :) I can't even see the targets without a scope, at that range (no AA for me).

Problem in MP is warping targets, making these guns less attractive at least for accurate shooting.

Btw, I've not tested with ACE, these runs are with no other addons than the beta.

[MavericK96 0]

I guess, in a way, it makes sense to be able to hit targets while prone with a LMG because of the bipod, but assault rifles don't have that. Still, you can rest your arm and fire while prone so it should be similar, plus the recoil in general should be less anyway. So yeah, the assault rifle recoil still needs some tweaking.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Yes it makes sense, with the bipod. But since that feature isn't implemented yet :) Then again, maybe it's just activated by default on prone for now. Maybe the M240 should jump around more than climb when rested, but I do find it's accuracy a bit on the high side. Especially against AI who have problems reacting in a good way at that distance.

So what should be implemented I think is the non bipod rested shooting, as the bipod rest seems to be already implemented for MG (should be more scattered around instead of climbing in prone, to support area suppression maybe) and especially LMG. M240 is rated effective on point targets to 600m with bipod. Same numbers for M249 and M60, but I'm not sure how effective the M249 rounds would be at that range against combat personnel.

[frederf 0]

I have had problems trying to keep crouched M249 bursts vaguely usable. They seem a bit too hard to handle at the moment. I must remember to test vanilla beta as I often forget that ACE throws its own wrench in the works. The M16 recoil is lovely. The need to "drag down" is the tiniest bit annoying but I wouldn't go back to the old method for all the tea in China. If further coding is prohibitive than I'm satisfied with the core model feature set as is even if some values could use tweaking.

I'm liking the new effort into the recoil being done at the moment. Props to BIS for focusing on subtle, low-level mechanics changes to improve quality from the ground up. Examples like F-35B and thermal imaging being "high-level" improvements.

[nkenny 1057]

I concur. The new recoil model is lovely.

The M249 has always had a little too much recoil to shoot standing, even in vanilla arma2.

Additionally I'd like to add to the list of problems weapons are the Ak-74 series which seem to have a little too much recoil to be effective combat arms. Given their low caliber and relative inaccuracy.

- k

[sata3d 0]

i like a lot the new recoil system, dont change anything bis, great work :)

[50.cal 10]

Tested on Build 72107 (no mods).

I for one prefer the old arma 2 model with added camera shake as it pretty accurately simulates the longitudinal kickback of the weapon.

Some variation could be added according to the stance and the fatigue state but once the shot has been fired the weapon should return near it's last pos very fast (specially while in prone pos).

Having to steer it back once the trigger has been released isn't realistic at all.

I never fired one of the weapon we have in the game but had a lot of training with a 5.6 (5.56) SIG 550 (standard Swiss military AR). I can tell you that even in full auto the grouping is excellent and the kickback is very manageable for a normally constituted 70kg guy.

Perhaps we could instead have a little more camera shake and longitudinal kickback.

Continue the good work!

Edited July 16, 2010 by 50.cal

[metalcraze 290]

After doing some testing with MGs I must say that they need to be toned down seriously - meaning the recoil is so big for them that firing more than 1 or 2 rounds at once makes no sense.

[Beagle 684]

After doing some testing with MGs I must say that they need to be toned down seriously - meaning the recoil is so big for them that firing more than 1 or 2 rounds at once makes no sense.

The usual pratice with Mgs in rela life is to fire 3-5 round burst and watch where they land...then another shor burst. If you applie this real life routine .30 MGs are easy to handle also with new recoil...remeber...MGs are to be fired prone.

[frederf 0]

Yeah but automatic rifles aren't.

[Beagle 684]

Yeah but automatic rifles aren't.

I seriously dont see a problem with .223 assault rifles in the actual beta...only with sustained auto fire, buts that's exactly what was wrong with the old recoil model to all I was ever use to.

I shot both the G36 in .223 and the G3 in .308 full auto...target distance for full auto was 25m...thats the distance full auto is considered for in our ZDV.

The G3 is worse then the MG3 in full auto due to only weighting 4,5 kg.

The G36 (3,6kg) is still much worse full auto in controllabillty compared to the MG.

You see...the lighter the weapon the worse is controll in full auto.

Thats why three round bursts are considered best above 25m target range.

[metalcraze 290]

I'm talking about a prone MG position of course. The point is - the 3rd shot always goes somewhere high into the sky.

[Beagle 684]

I'm talking about a prone MG position of course. The point is - the 3rd shot always goes somewhere high into the sky.

? I've never seen this behaviour...can you upload a video?

Taking out groups of five is easy with MG prone at 200-300m.

[no use for a name 0]

Well, I finally got around to testing some more and narrowed it down to one of the PROPER mods. I played stock OA w/ the beta and the recoil wasn't near as bad.

Sorry for the bad call on my part; hopefully I can narrow it down to a specific PROPER tweak and let them know.

edit: Found it on the first try (not too hard :D ). The only proper mod I'm using that would affect the weapon is the EnhancedWeaponSway, which I thought made the rifle move more while standing/kneeling; but not affect the recoil. Not sure if it's intentional or not (probably bugged due to the new recoil in the beta); but with that enabled my gun is all over the place. Took it out and all is well! Anyone else having the same problem might want to make sure it's not a mod conflict/incompatibility issue. With stock OA+beta it's still very easy to get decent groups with MG's

Edited July 16, 2010 by No Use For A Name

[frederf 0]

I seriously dont see a problem with .223 assault rifles in the actual beta...only with sustained auto fire, buts that's exactly what was wrong with the old recoil model to all I was ever use to.

I shot both the G36 in .223 and the G3 in .308 full auto...target distance for full auto was 25m...thats the distance full auto is considered for in our ZDV.

The G3 is worse then the MG3 in full auto due to only weighting 4,5 kg.

The G36 (3,6kg) is still much worse full auto in controllabillty compared to the MG.

You see...the lighter the weapon the worse is controll in full auto.

Thats why three round bursts are considered best above 25m target range.

Automatic rifle, a.k.a. M249. I tried it again in the latest beta (with and without ACE, didn't make a difference.) Standing and crouched firing performance was fine... might be sliiiightly less accurate than a good shooter in real life but not by much

[rübe 127]

There has been talk about making recoil an option - to which I'm opposed to aswell as most of you guys. But, what about makeing the recoil slightly based on the units skill? We already have aimingAccuracy, aimingShake and aimingSpeed. Playing a unit with these values at the bottom of the range, should increase recoil for every weapon (but not dramatic), while playing as a specop with these values in the upper range should reduce recoil a bit. Again, the impact of this should probably only have a marginal effect on the player, maybe a bit stronger on the AI.

Your thoughts?