hellfire serverly underpowed

[weedman 10]

hey all

Just wanted to report on the state of hellfires in OA. i find that obviously against armored targets this is perfect however me and my wingman took out a command element of 6 troops yesterday. now they where all huddled up in a big mess, so i smashed the trigger and the hellfire came screaming off. to my amazement the hellfire landed a couple of feet away and not 1 of them died, i repeated this a few times but the only way i could kill the enemy was a direct Laze on to the target personel. please bis , i love both your games but please fix this mess

all that needs to be changed is the hellfires damage radius!

Kind Regards

Weedman

Edited July 4, 2010 by weedman

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

Warhead:

High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT); 20 lb (9 kg) tandem anti-armor

Metal augmented charge (MAC); 18 lb (8 kg) shaped-charge; Blast Fragmentation

OA has the former.

Choosing weapon load-outs &/or warheads while the aircraft is stationed at base would be a great feature.

[weedman 10]

Iroquois Pliskin you saved my life thankyou, wow didnt know you could change warheads. once again a lovely touch by bis.

[ediko911 10]

Actually you can't. He said it would be a nice feature. I think ACE has this feature though.

[Beagle 684]

The hellfire is just fine, you just cant ripple it anymore like in ArmA II because you will have to wait for a good lock...takes 3-5 seconds each time you lock on.

[ediko911 10]

And what are you talking about? He didn't complain about hellfire locking time. He complained about hellfires damage radius for infantry which is rather low. I too often haven't killed infantry with hellfires since they only damage them at 2~3 meter radius.

[Beagle 684]

And what are you talking about? He didn't complain about hellfire locking time. He complained about hellfires damage radius for infantry which is rather low. I too often haven't killed infantry with hellfires since they only damage them at 2~3 meter radius.

Hellfires are HEAT, as was said...the kill radius of a HEAT going blind is negletable.

Otherwise and in case of MAC the armour penetration is much less and you wont kill more modern MBTs like T-90 with it.

[celery 8]

So if IRL you fire a MAC Hellfire at a group of people, you're unlikely to kill or incapacitate anyone?

[ediko911 10]

I can't find any sources on hellfire blast radius but I am pretty sure it would be effective against infantry. It's not like a sabot round of a tank that is pretty much like a cannonball. It should and probably would kill infantry in it's impact zone. Right now I have to actually hit the infantry to kill it.

[Daniel 0]

It's been used against enemy combatants in the open where rockets or cannon fire would have hit nearby buildings. It vaporised the enemy and the location is now known as Soggy Arm Field since that's all that was found. Since AGM-114K is laser guided it could have been a direct hit.

Hellfire should be effective against single and tight formations of enemy troops. As ediko911 said, even if it's not a frag warhead, it still has a considerable blast, and shouldn't be treat like a SABOT.

PS: Just recalled another case in Afghanistan where a British JTAC tasked a US Predator to hit a group of enemy with its single Hellfire. "The analysts in the US reckoned we'd killed seven outright, six were fatally wounded, and there were a lot more injuries." So there's thirteen at a minimum in one strike.

Apparently UAVs use either the AGM-114R with blast fragmentation warhead, or the AGM-114P, which is similar to the K but used for higher altitudes. Since it was fired from 22,000 ft, i'm guessing it was likely the P-model tandem shaped charge HEAT we have modelled in game.

Sources - Apache, Fire Strike 7/9, Wikipedia

Edited July 4, 2010 by Daniel

[Inkompetent 0]

Problem is that the ArmA engine is terrible at simulating fragmentation. If shooting a HEAT round against a hard surface like dense, rocky ground it could cause quite severe fragmentation, even if the pattern would be terribly uneven and not *that* effective (a lot of the blast force would dissipate into the ground due to so much energy going into melting and propelling the metal liner).

ArmA only has direct hit damage, and then blast damage that is static within a set radius, and then has a linear falloff. However there's no differentiation between pure high explosive damage, and fragmentation-damage, which makes it hard to give especially non-fragmentating weapons a somewhat proper fragmentation-effect (since EVERYTHING that explodes will send fragments through the air of some kind, be it parts of the casing, or part of the surrounding terrain/objects).

If indirect damage becomes too strong or the radius too big there'll always be some issue with effect against soft/medium targets, so without improved simulation I understand if they focus on the primary effect of such weapons.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Another problem is that AI don't have any clue to handle the threat. They pretty much stick in formation being an easy target. Also there are rarely any micro features to take cover behind for a ground impact.

Although it's maybe not all that realistic, I'll accept it in favor of balance and AI capabilities. Using hellfires against troops in the open sounds like a quick way to get scores. So when that doesn't work... Switch to the cannon or FFARS and save the Hellfires.

[max power 21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

Warhead:

High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT); 20 lb (9 kg) tandem anti-armor

Metal augmented charge (MAC); 18 lb (8 kg) shaped-charge; Blast Fragmentation

OA has the former.

Choosing weapon load-outs &/or warheads while the aircraft is stationed at base would be a great feature.

So you're saying that 20 lbs of explosive shouldn't kill someone that's two feet away?

:confused:

[HyperU2 11]

So you're saying that 20 lbs of explosive shouldn't kill someone that's two feet away?

:confused:

It's surprisingly random, I've seen plenty of vids where one of the little bastards in a cluster of 4 or 5 runs away while the others are killed. 30mm solves that though. :) The problem with the HEAT round is that it's directional, more towards the ground.

[Zoz 10]

Yeah, I have seen a quite famous video where a car is hit directly from an Hellfire and, right after the hit, 3-4 insurgents jump off the car and start running.. Adrenaline maybe.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

So you're saying that 20 lbs of explosive shouldn't kill someone that's two feet away?

:confused:

Direction of the blast/force projected is what counts, not the amount of explosives you stuff into a metal rod.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

You should change the title of this thread. Hellfire's are not underpowered, they do their job just fine. A more appropriate title is something like "Hellfires need larger/more effective blast radius".

[weedman 10]

wow big dawg thats going a bit far right there.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

No, I'm just saying it that the title is unclear. When I first saw the thread title I thought it was going to be someone complaining that hellfires are too weak against armor.

[max power 21]

Direction of the blast/force projected is what counts, not the amount of explosives you stuff into a metal rod.

The explosive force radiates in every direction equally. The charge is shaped so that there is a copper cone in the centre that is compressed into a jet. In order for that to happen there must be an equal force outward. Do not confuse penetrating power with explosive force. These weapons use explosively formed penetrators, where the explosion mashes a peace of metal into a spike and propels it into some armour, not directed energy discharges like lasers.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Are you sure? Sounds more logical to me that the shell is built to withstand the outward force so as to direct the force forward, in order for the cone to form a jet.

[Beagle 684]

Are you sure? Sounds more logical to me that the shell is built to withstand the outward force so as to direct the force forward, in order for the cone to form a jet.

No it does not work with a shell containment...the jet will form by the shape and the pressure of its own detonation alone...

you can actually form a hollow charge made from C4 into a tincan, put a coin in it and it will work. (done that on explosives basic training course, no special knowledge as you can see)

Edited July 6, 2010 by Beagle

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Roger that.

[.kju 3244]

	class M_Hellfire_AT: MissileBase
{
	hit = 800;
	indirectHit = 20;
	indirectHitRange = 2;

So as you can see the range is currently very dense.

Would be useful to make a CIT ticket and list all the effected ammo.

[maturin 12]

Hellfires are HEAT, as was said...the kill radius of a HEAT going blind is negletable.

I'm not sure what you imagine happens to the hundreds of pieces of shell casing. And there is still a lot of blast on a warhead that big.

HEAT weapons have directional charges that don't distribute blast overpressure very well, and above all their casings are not designed to fragment effectively, but they are still extremely dangerous to infantry at that caliber.

And as always, there's an ACE for that