Zoom is not realistic IMO and iron sights suffer

[Wolfstriked 11]

I was thinking FOV today like in other FOV thread but in regards to sights.There is an issue with A2.Playing on my 21inch4:3 monitor at normal view and it looks real.My hand placed against screen looks same size as hand on screen and steering looks close to real life.When I zoom in the hands and steering wheel look huge.The hand becomes twice the size of my hand and before the "you must have small hands" :Dresponses hit.....I wear XXL gloves.So with this I say that zooming in is NOT realistic.Everything looks huge when zoomed.When I am standing one block away from a house I wanna fire on that from one block away not have the house look huge on my screen.The screen you view is a big factor here and maybe 21inch is to large for it.Of course if they would of made world size look normal while zooming on 21inch then unzoom would look ridiculously small so its a tradeoff.

So I actually feel that zoom is not realistic and also causes a sense of disbelief.The sense of disbelief is the fact that your zooming in.It just looks unreal as you zoom in and zoom out again.The Arma LOD shifts just add to this in bad way also.

Now onto iron sights.Whoa Nelly the size of the iron sight is HUGE when zoomed in.The ACOG becomes size of my head.:eek: The AK74 becomes 5 inches across.In unzoomed/ironsighted though the AK looks close to perfect in size but is too far away.Is it possible to push the view forward when using sights so that the gun is correct distance away from screen.When you move forward objects grow in size so the iron sight would grow a tiny amount which is a good thing but not the huge amount that FOV change from zoom causes.

Any ideas?

[celery 8]

As long as individual pixels on a monitor can be told apart and monitors don't cover your whole field of vision, the zoom serves the function of making you see the details you would see in real life. For example with 1680x1050 resolution you can read road signs from only a few meters away.

[maturin 12]

Your eyes 'zoom' in real life as well. When you change focus, your field of vision also narrows or widens, and you are more blind to things in the periphery. Obviously, your hands don't change size, but given that computer monitors offer only the fraction of the field of vision of the human eye, it's not the biggest issue. Better zoom than no zoom, because your vision has to be pretty bad to be the equivalent of 1680x1050.

[Daniel 0]

As Celery pointed out, zoom is the only viable method of overcoming the physical limitations of monitors being relatively small and flat.

[andromedagalaxe 10]

so don't press R mouse btn ...

[Honeycutt 10]

have you considered a smaller monitor?

[bravo 6 0]

Yup, Zoom is not realistic.

Even ACE still need some fixes, in my opinion.

[dmarkwick 261]

IRL you don't wander the world with a cardboard box over your head with a square hole in the front. IRL you aren't limited by an artificial detail limiter (resolution) as thought you're looking through very fine gauze. IRL you can concentrate on a distant object and see more detail for doing so. ArmA2 takes a lot of stuff away from you by the nature of the media its displayed on. As a simulation, other solutions are presented to you to give you back *roughly* the same situational awareness abilities. It's all about giving you enough information to make appropriate responses as though you might be there.

Of course, you are not there, you're on a computer. Zoom is a way of giving you back the ability to squint or concentrate on a distant object at the expense of peripheral detail.

[Wolfstriked 11]

All valid points.Just try it out.Feels way more real to me as I have to actually squint my own eyes to try and make out minor subtle differences of enemies hiding in grass.I have reduced the default FOV in game of .75/1.0 to .675/0.9 just to give a bit less overall view with objects slightly larger.Actually game is coming to life for me with this.Then again I am crazy so YMMV.

Anyone know how I can move the weapons back further when you are sighted?IS this even possible?

Another thing that I really wanna see is for BIS to lock the weapon in vertical movement to the actual mouse movement.When you move mouse left and right the weapon matches it perfectly and you feel ease at lining up a target.But when you move the mouse up and down the weapon drags behind slightly and this causes that very hard feel of bringing up the weapon on an enemy/FAST.Just another why BIS...why???

[Wolfstriked 11]

WTF is going on???Just had the game freak out on me.First I was playing with zoom and found that it was incremental and stayed at each setting.4 taps to full zoom!!

Then I was turning around a corner and found my weapon was moving back and then forward again.Back and fourth I went and watched the weapon move back to clear the obstruction and forward again when obstruction was cleared.I got killed and when started a new mission both of these features were gone.

So I ask WTF was that?

Edit<<<not totally crazy.I now have incremental zoom always.Probably known by everyone here but if not heres how to get it.Use a single press key for zoom.Then when you go into ironsights you can increment increase.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Wolfstriked

[ZeosPantera 0]

IRL you don't wander the world with a cardboard box over your head with a square hole in the front.

Have to post this image I spent too much time on it.

Is this thread due to my FOV thread?

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=100235

the size of the iron sight is HUGE when zoomed in.The ACOG becomes size of my head.:eek:

Well in real life when you put a sight to your eye it looks like this

So it is just being projected to your screen which is X inches from you.

Are we asking questions or giving statements?

Edited June 10, 2010 by ZeosPantera

[Wolfstriked 11]

Thats exactly my point.Take above pic and center on your pc screen and thats how it should look.Instead take that pic and blow it up 4 times and thats how it looks when zoomed in A2.If someone were to make it so that the weapon is moved closer to camera with no FOV change(hence no exaggerated enlarging of weapon) it would look like above pic just with space on sides for surrounding feel.

I doubt anyone will do this so I am just getting used to it.It doesnt look half bad.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I agree the ACOG feels somewhat out of proportions. But I think it is to enable the use of the reticle for distance estimations. Make it smaller, and the reticle is useless due to resolution limitation.

How can we make a better ACOG? Some versions are prepared for "both eyes open" shooting. Maybe these could have a smaller scope, but the black overlay replaced with a blurred exterior (since we can't have different zooms on exterior and interior)?

The same also goes for G36 and XM8 scopes I would say.

[Pulverizer 1]

Sure they look large, but if you haven't noticed putting things right next to your eye makes them have a very, very large angular size in reality as well.

This is how Arma2 sights looks when you use Zoom Out with the default FOV, at 1680x1050: click

As you can see it looks about the same, even smaller actually. The thing is you will struggle to hit anything at 50m away like that with rifles that should be effective up to 200-400m.

[ZeosPantera 0]

The ironsights only make sense to use if you can actually hit something decently far away with them. A person 200m away with stock FOV is only going to be about 8-10 pixels high (that is just a guess btw). No chance in hitting them without some artificial zoom.

Here is the look down the sights of the stock AK at 20 degrees V-FOV.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/F12Bwth2/Game%20Screens/arma22010-06-0602-59-11-38.jpg

It is big enough to see without secondary zoom. Just the slight zooming when you switch to ironsights.

Also just played an entire CTI at 40 Degree v-Fov and loved it. Other then the compass being unusable it was fine. I bound a close key to temporary zoom out right next to zoom in and used that in narrow town locals. Video of it :

[sickboy 13]

Move the eyepoint closer to the weapon, like is on the real world picture?

[Second 0]

Sure they look large, but if you haven't noticed putting things right next to your eye makes them have a very, very large angular size in reality as well.

This is how Arma2 sights looks when you use Zoom Out with the default FOV, at 1680x1050: click

As you can see it looks about the same, even smaller actually. The thing is you will struggle to hit anything at 50m away like that with rifles that should be effective up to 200-400m.

I did some tests with ArmA way back. And impression i got from it is that full zoom gives player pretty much 1:1 real life scale. Narrow FOV just makes it look absurd. Estimation was made with standing man from 100 meters and it gave similar amount of mils which would be given in reality.

Haven't bothered to do that with ArmA2 (well haven't bothered to play the game :D ) with my current monitor and screen resolution. I don't have an idea how those things affect to scale.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Second

[Wolfstriked 11]

Sure they look large, but if you haven't noticed putting things right next to your eye makes them have a very, very large angular size in reality as well.

This is how Arma2 sights looks when you use Zoom Out with the default FOV, at 1680x1050: click

As you can see it looks about the same, even smaller actually. The thing is you will struggle to hit anything at 50m away like that with rifles that should be effective up to 200-400m.

Im not saying to zoom out though.I think on a 21inch monitor the world look reals at normal zoom.When you zoom in the hands look twice as big for example.Acog looks normal size when unzoomed.Another example is when fighting at airport on Utes.If I zoom in I can take pot shots with AK74 at enemy that is standing across the airfield.This is wrong yet if I fight at normal zoom they seem the correct distance away.The game seems set to look real at normal zoom distance perception wise.

What we need....take normal zoom....press right mouse and bring up ironsight....now just move viewpoint in closer to weapon but do not change the zoom(FOV)....this will make the weapon enlarge a tiny bit more instead of fill whole screen like zooming in does.It will look like your closer to ironsight yet you still have view on left and right of it.

You notice how right now your press right mouse and ironsight comes up but it is far away?Its like that so when you then zoom in the ironsight fills the screen.If you went to iron sight and weapon was close to screen already then when you zoomed in the iron sight would dissappear.

[ZeosPantera 0]

Im not saying to zoom out though. I think on a 21inch monitor the world looks real at normal zoom.When you zoom in the hands look twice as big for example. Acog looks normal size when unzoomed.

It is all a matter of perspective. If you took a real rifle with an acog scope on it and sat down in front of you PC at your normal playing distance and pointed that rifle at your screen. How much of the computers screen would be blocked from your eye's view by the acog mounted to your real rifle? I would have to guess the whole damn thing. My FOV thread tries to explain this (see above post for link).

When using a real acog you hold it about 8-10" from your eye. However in game our acog exists only on our screens which is 25-40" from our eyes. So for the acog in game to feel like a real one it must be much bigger. Unless you were 8-10" from your monitor.

The math never lies.

Edited June 11, 2010 by ZeosPantera

[tacticalnuggets 24]

The ironsights only make sense to use if you can actually hit something decently far away with them. A person 200m away with stock FOV is only going to be about 8-10 pixels high (that is just a guess btw). No chance in hitting them without some artificial zoom.

Here is the look down the sights of the stock AK at 20 degrees V-FOV.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/F12Bwth2/Game%20Screens/arma22010-06-0602-59-11-38.jpg

It is big enough to see without secondary zoom. Just the slight zooming when you switch to ironsights.

Also just played an entire CTI at 40 Degree v-Fov and loved it. Other then the compass being unusable it was fine. I bound a close key to temporary zoom out right next to zoom in and used that in narrow town locals. Video of it :

This guy has pointed out a subtle but MIND BOGGINGLY IMPORTANT problem with arma2's zoom feature. The benefit of zoom is not just "zooming in" its the detail on the objects that you want to see. Its arma2's f'd up lod respresentations with the sights up. A way to fix this would be increased lod detail and focus when you hold down the right mouse button. Maybe bluring the edges of the screen to create "tunnel vision". The fix to the problem is right there.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Still feels huge to me.Its just me most likely but when I see Andre The Giants hand in front of me I cringe.I could live with zoom if it was 1/4 to 1/2 what we have now.Just that tiny bit extra reach.It does get hard when enemies are far out there I'll admit but I have no trouble taking on 10 man armies at 100#strength on Chenarus's grass filled map.I could live with zoom if it was 1/4 to 1/2 what we have now though.Just that tiny bit extra reach.

But I am loving the no zoom playstyle(just the tiny zoom when you bring up sight).It always felt sketchy to me how you needed to click Rmouse to bring up sight and then hold Rmouse to zoom and wait the one full second it takes.I seem to always zoom when I instead wanna bring the sights up.Now I have Hold Rmouse to bring sights up so any touch of the mouse goes right to sights.

What I can't understand is zoom and hold breath together.I was sniping from afar,laying in grass and wiped out oxygenwise just looking thru my scope.:lol:

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Just a matter of rebinding your keys. Both hold breath and reveal should not have been on the right mouse button.

[ZeosPantera 0]

Still feels huge to me.Its just me most likely but when I see Andre The Giants hand in front of me I cringe.

Put your hands over your eyes.. To repeat in game your palm would take up the whole screen.

It always felt sketchy to me how you needed to click Rmouse to bring up sight and then hold Rmouse to zoom and wait the one full second it takes.I seem to always zoom when I instead wanna bring the sights up.Now I have Hold Rmouse to bring sights up so any touch of the mouse goes right to sights

It is called re-binding your keys. I have "zoom" set to a completely separate key then ironsights. So i can zoom with nothing and then bring ironsights up or ironsights without extra zoom. Actually, I can't remember what the defaults bindings were but I am pretty sure I modified it all.

Here. watch this and tell me whats different.

xsgI6XVFF60

[MavericK96 0]

I can honestly say I've never once had an issue with clicking RMouse vs. holding it, bringing up optics vs. zooming respectively. I think the system works great. If it is thinking you are holding the button when you click, you might want to see if your mouse is working properly.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Just a matter of rebinding your keys. Both hold breath and reveal should not have been on the right mouse button.

Is hold breath even that good?I don't use it since it really doesn't do much.Its not that noticable a difference for me.If it were to stabilize weapon say for a second to get a shot off I would love it.

---------- Post added at 07:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 AM ----------

Put your hands over your eyes.. To repeat in game your palm would take up the whole screen.

It is called re-binding your keys. I have "zoom" set to a completely separate key then ironsights. So i can zoom with nothing and then bring ironsights up or ironsights without extra zoom. Actually, I can't remember what the defaults bindings were but I am pretty sure I modified it all.

Here. watch this and tell me whats different.

Your right that I could rebind it.I tried it and it does work.Its sad since it just feels better when its on Rmouse with optics and zoom....I guess its just I like less zoom.Go into a vehicle and zoom.Its around half the amount of infantry zoom and to me it just feels better.

---------- Post added at 07:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 AM ----------

I can honestly say I've never once had an issue with clicking RMouse vs. holding it, bringing up optics vs. zooming respectively. I think the system works great. If it is thinking you are holding the button when you click, you might want to see if your mouse is working properly.

Most likely my mouse.I need to tap in the millisecond range to get sight up.

Edited June 13, 2010 by W0lle
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