Polish President dead

[Placebo 29]

If the topic isn't stuck to then this thread will be closed, this is not a thread to discuss politics.

[echo1 0]

Also you can spot all the drug dealers in the nightclub when they suddenly start dancing when his record is played.

As I said, preaching to the choir, not making a new one.

[Bartchie 10]

#1 Russian ATC controller said that polish crew didn't understand russian language and then (after few seconds) he said that they understand russian but they didn't understand numbers. Russia's language numbers sounds 90% SAME as polish language numbers. Then he said "ask more questions to captain". But Captain is dead. I would like to cut his head off for killing my President.

#2 Fuel have been droped from the plane and it's 100% true.

I saw a video that have been recorded a minutes after the crash just when firefighters were arriving. And i'ts true that when there is fuel in the plane (with shitloads of octans), a lot of trees should be burning and almost every part of a plane should be burning. I didn't see any dead bodies and any big fire in the crash side of the video.

#3 Poland is defendless and can be taken over by communists. The whole team, the most important people who were fighting with communism have been killed in the crash. NOW there is no power in Poland to fight with communism.

[topas 1]

I would like to cut his head off for killing my President.

Whom do you mean?

The captain or the flight controller?

Whatever is the case we shall hold back with such statements... let's show at least some respect to the loss of life..

I am fully aware that keeping our comments and thoughts in pure objectivity is not easy; it's at least hard for me not to surface any emotion when thinking or commenting on what happened.. but whatever we say now in anger or dicted by any other emotion is distasteful and may be simply disrespectful for the people killed...

Especially when this is based on unconfirmed 'sensations' ... Pilots who flew the aircraft knew English and Russian.. so there's little belief to be given to those theories that crash occured due to language differencies..

History and God will judge those who are responsible...

#3

No comments...

The tragedy is a great and unspeakable loss for the entire political scene [domestic and foreign];

highly doubtful though that the men and women who perished on Saturday represented the only force capable of preventing what you have so colourfully expressed... It's a subject that will occupy people for the following months; but as stated and asked for before - not in this thread please

Edited April 12, 2010 by topas

[Bartchie 10]

Whom do you mean?

The captain or the flight controller?

OF COURSE CONTROLLER ! I see you don't understand it.

[topas 1]

No I did not understand it as the sentence followed right after 'Captain is dead'.. thx for clarifying anyway..

It's hard to follow how the blame can be shifted on the Airdrome crew; according to all reports available they did what they could to supply the aircraft with proper information and alternatives

As said;

Waiting for official statements and investigation results may turn out to be the best course of action now. Polish and Russian specialists are working hand in hand and cooperating extremely well [as reported in all media sources] on this one... They'll figure it out soon...

Speculations won't bring back anybody or do any good...

[spooky lynx 73]

Waiting for official statements and investigation results may turn out to be the best course of action now. Polish and Russian specialists are working hand in hand and cooperating extremely well [as reported in all media sources] on this one... They'll figure it out soon...

Speculations won't bring back anybody or do any good...

Unfortunately, not everyone understands it...

[vilas 477]

OF COURSE CONTROLLER ! I see you don't understand it.

you are ... not wise (saying it polite and delicately)

do you know word "oszołom" ? do USA (our so called "friend and new big brother" ) have "national tragedy day" ? no, Russia, Brasil, Lithuania

first of all you should wait with such words till black-box records will be published

we should be thankfull to Russians that they warned so much times, we not listened again (Pole must show that he won't listen advice from Russians ? or simply they not wanted to be late to ceremony ?)

controller did his job, he couldn't GIVE ORDER TO FORBID to land to plane, he was not military commander of Polish air force to make it

in Polish TV all experienced pilots say "you can't land in such big fog" !!! listen to pilots who say that in such fog you can't land if airfield is not equipped in newest special civilian equipment to land without visibility

Smolensk was military airfield, just like many many such airfields in Poland , who not have such special equipment compatible with equipment on plane

thats why only some airfield are for civilian jets man !

not first time they tried to save our ass, this time controller tried to save (it was military airfield, not civilian where personnel must know English, it was military airfield)

second time many months ago, when during air-show Belorussian brave pilot rather wanted to commit suicide than to hurt anyone,

when SU27 had problems, he kept steering it , to not crash into the crowd

he could jump using ejection seat, parachute, but he chosen to steer into empty yard SU27 to the end, to save hundreds of people watching air-show

_________________________

i am respecting Topas words but not agree with this , why ?

because this death has very deep political effect on my country internal situation in next weeks

it is not "just death" , it is "real problem in politics balance of forces"

this death is not only "death of person" but "end of some barriers, takeover by one political option, cut down leaders of opposition, end of some people that care about national interest and history more than other option people"

one clerk can replace another clerk, it is not problem , but it begins being problem if next clerk see nothing wrong in bribes

thats why it is so important for us, not death of persons, but death of option against ruling party

@ Bartchie - what communism, what communism ?

Rycho and Zbycho, Balcerowicz, Lewandowski, Wielkanowski etc. liberals who act against own country people

Rycho and Zbycho are communists ? Balcerowicz and Lewandowski are communists ?? people with 80s Solidarity roots who acted in last bribe scandals were communists, do they have PZPR roots ?? all politicians contacting with mafia were communists and had PZPR roots ??

people who sold our industry for nothing in 1990 had PZPR roots ??

not communism Bartchie, saying about communism, where big business rule is stupid

it is like saying about dinosaurs danger today, communism is "mythical danger" in year 2010,

what communism risk ? free of charge flats and USSR again ? heheh, you're joking

there is no "USSR danger" , there is no danger (ironic) of "now all get flats for free and won't pay for education" anymore

there is "liberals" danger, Rycho and Zbycho bribes scandals, Balcerowicz, Lewadowski privatisations, Wielkanowski judges, Olewnik and such like victims,

there is danger that Rycho and Zbycho and others will make law for the rich, there is danger that Rycho and Zbycho will be informing some of businessmen about economical decisions before they are made, making not free competition to other businessmen (who not pay bribes)

those whom you call "communists" are after 1990 "businessmen, owners" - capitalists not communists, they are rich now, since 20 years, and you say about communism ??? heh ? where do you have eyes ?

if they were really communists, they would not have manufactures, gold clocks, most expensive cars, market places, shares, palaces etc. but they would give all to society

they are not "communists", they are "rich business leaders who were in PZPR party because of greed to get profits"

saying about communism danger, you can say also about UFO invasion from Mars

sorry it is hard to be not offtop when i think about PO party members taking all country , it is hard not to think about how our foreign/internal politics will look now ( ass licking US on knees and giving all for free to west business, less money for social care and hospitals, but more for troops in Iraq instead of moving them back to country )

we will back to 90s - which caused big protest and rising some extreme right-wing (by name and Church connections, not by economic attitude ) parties as reaction of people frustrated by liberals

i don't want mass unemployment again, low labor/employee rights, downgrading system, downgrading law for lawyers (not people), corruption, untouchable rich etc.

90s moved Poland to third world, death of most important opposition leader can make step back in Polish history to 90s (where small not honest people group became very rich and wide society percentage suffered poverty including me walking in second-hand clothes, while on TV they were saying all is okay )

what communism you talking about ???

-------------

@ answering to drug-dealers, if you can't recognize them, you don't know subcultures dres-code, which is very specific, sometimes only criminals were specific mark of jacket or boots + jewelery, it is their "code to recognize each other", if you know this "code" you know who are them, in Polish we had proverb "show me your sportswear and i will tell what you steal" (pokaż dres a powiem co kradniesz), brown Cordon Athletic leather jacket, ortalion dress (Adidas, Nike, Reebok : mostly dark blue / white), silver-white sport boots (Adidas, Nike, Reebok) solarium tanned , gold neckle... recognizes bandit

Edited April 12, 2010 by vilas

[topas 1]

saying about communism danger

reminds me a bit of:

Yes! whenever bicycles are broken, or menaced by international communism, Bicycle Repair Man is ready!

Hope you get where it's from ;)

--------

On the pilot skills issue;

The controller in question made a statement he's full of respect for the skills of the presidential pilots..

I know this may sound absurde when you consider the outcome of the whole situation.. But according to aviation experts the pattern in which the debris was spread suggested that pilots tried and succeeded in maintaing control of the aircraft to the last moment. When it struck the antenna, the first trees.. even when it started to fall apart s straight flight path was still maintained; the 150meters to the left, by which the plane is supposed to miss the runway is the result of the plane being too badly damaged to be controlled anymore....The descent was performed with 'jewellery detail' says the control guy.. if this was performed on a proper hight it would be a super-smooth landing

Alexiei Korocznin from Severnyi Airdrome said:

Mimo mgły wszystko szło dobrze do odległości ok. 1,5 km przed lotniskiem. Wtedy samolot za bardzo obniżył wysokość, zahaczając o maszt stacji radiolokacyjnej i pierwszą partię drzew. Piloci próbowali wyprowadzić maszynę, ale nie udało się, bo już zaczęła się rozpadać. Zahaczyła o kolejne drzewa na wysokości kilku metrów i runęła na ziemię. - Piloci musieli być świetnymi fachowcami - twierdzi Korocznin. - Obniżali maszynę płynnie, wręcz z dokładnością jubilera. Zabrakło im tylko wysokości. Gdyby lecieli 10-15 m wyżej, lądowanie byłoby udane. O ich kunszcie świadczy także to, że maszyna nie runęła od razu, nie rozpadła się natychmiast i nie wybuchła, ale pękała jakby po kawałku.

Zdaniem Korocznina nie było odchylenia od trasy lądowania o blisko 150 m w lewo, o czym wspominał m.in. minister ds. nadzwyczajnych Rosji Siergiej Szojgu. - To skutek zderzenia z drzewami - tłumaczy Korocznin. Pilot najprawdopodobniej próbował poderwać maszynę, podnosząc prawe skrzydło, i dlatego zboczyła na lewo, ale już spadając, a nie w czasie lotu. - Samolot leciał dobrym kursem. Piloci byli mistrzami. Problem w tym, że nie powinni lądować przy takiej mgle - podkreśla Korocznin.

Please someone translate; don't have time for it @work now; thx

Edited April 12, 2010 by topas

[vilas 477]

was it in Casa tragedy that "foots" were messed with "meters" ??

i hope there was no difference "one say in meters, other say in foots" ?

if there were 4 retries to land... speechless.. after second retry and fog they had to go to other airfield, we can't turn back time, but we can learn all pilots across the globe "do not try to land during fog, do listen to control, do not try to be hero and better than others"

[kuIoodporny 45]

Bartchie is not talking about communists under red banner. He is talking about people who are supported by ex-members of Peoples Republic of Poland special agendas, who - as opposed to Czech Republic and East Germany - weren't cut out of public life in '89.

[topas 1]

I do not claim to be an expert on this; but speaking of 'feet' instead of 'meters' in case of soviet-made plane with polish crew on russian airfield? it simply does not fit in there... Both our nations use the metric system, why suddenly 'feet'?

[vilas 477]

so let he not use word communists, cause it is misleading

let he use "businessman with political police / military intel roots"

and i am surprised that he not see Rycho, Zbycho, Balcerowicz, Lewadowski and Boni and many many others from PO and ex-Solidarity roots , who used Solidarity (trade union) movement as ladder to become rich, owners etc. (opposite to trade union ideas from 1980)

of course in PL there should be like it was in Germany, Czech... Kaczynski, Kieres, Wasserman etc. tried to fix "thick line of forget"

[kuIoodporny 45]

I do not claim to be an expert on this; but speaking of 'feet' instead of 'meters' in case of soviet-made plane with polish crew on russian airfield? it simply does not fit in there... Both our nations use the metric system, why suddenly 'feet'?

Yes, it was about CASA crash. An example of how little thing can lead to disaster.

[sudayev 27]

Would you cut the crap about the communists rychos and zbychos, drug dealers and other morons, please ?

Or someone will close this thread with first post about the tragedy and the last post about things mentioned above.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Sudayev

[von_paulus 0]

I don't understand why so many high state figures didn't travel in separate airplanes. I thought it was a security standard nowadays.

Indeed, Katyn is a cursed place for Poland.

My condolences to the Polish people for this tragedy.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Von_Paulus

[Placebo 29]

Thread re-opened, this thread is for discussing the recent tragedy at Smolensk, not for discussing Polish politics, anyone discussing politics will risk being suspended from posting.

[kuIoodporny 45]

Placebo, sorry but how can we not discuss politics when politicians were killed? This is the background that cannot be ommited. In my opinion, what should be avoided is talking about politics without any reference to the thread.

The crash at Smolensk will have many consequences, not talking about who was killed and what will possibly follow is too strict rule for this topic I think.

Anyway, I'm finished with expressing my views.

Edited April 16, 2010 by zGuba
important

[topas 1]

recent events in images:

[topas 1]

our neighbors' solidarity

[topas 1]

homecoming...

[topas 1]

[topas 1]

[*LK1* 10]

kondolencje polish mates.

[sudayev 27]

I'm just a little mixed up at this moment. How many of them returend to Poland and how many crash victims are still being identified ?

Sunday is the day of Presidential Pair funeral ceremony at the Wawel Castle. I hope that all ashes from Icelandic volcane will be gone so all imporatnt figures will attend. This list is very impressive. We have never had such ammout of presidents and ministers from foreign countries at the one time. Not to mention such big players like Medvedev and Obama. Massive summit. My colleague from Cracow have told me that he saw some foreign speaking big guys in dark shades walking around the Castle square, looking for something and watching the area.

AFGHANISTAN President Hamid Karzai

ARMENIA Howik Abrahamian Speaker of the Parliament

ALBANIA President of the Republic of Albania Bamir Topi

AUSTRALIA Governor-General Quentin Bryce

AZERBAIJAN Prime Minister Artur Rasi-zade

BELARUS President Boris Batura

BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA President of the Presidium of BiH Haris Silajdić

BULGARIA President Georgi Parvanov

CROATIA President Ivo Josipović

CHINA Special Envoy of the Government Transport Minister Li Shenglin

CYPRUS President Demetris Christofias

MONTENEGRO President Filip Vujnovic with his wife's Foreign Minister Milan Rocen

CZECH President Vaclav Klaus

DENMARK Queen Margrethe's Foreign Minister Lene Espresen

Egypt Minister of International Cooperation Fayza Aboulanga

ESTONIA President Toomas Hendrik Ilves, the wife of Prime Minister Andrus Ansip

FINLAND President Tarja Halonen

FRANCE President Nicolas Sarkozy

GREECE Prime Minister Papandreou Jeorjos

GEORGIA President Mikheil Saakashvili and his wife

SPAIN King Juan Carlos and his wife Prime Minister Jose Luis Zapatero

INDIA Minister of Foreign Affairs of fresh matter Krishna

IRAQ Frans Minister of Industry Fawzi Toma

IRAN Islamic Republic Deputy Minister for European Affairs Ali Ahani

IRELAND President Mary McAleese

ICELAND President Olafur Ragnar Grinsson

ISRAEL Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman

CANADA Prime Minister Stephen Harper

KAZAKHSTAN President Ural Muchamedżnanow

KATAR Emir of Qatar Hamad Bin Khalifa Al and his wife Khania

SOUTH KOREA Prime Minister Chung Unchan

KOSOVO President Fatmir Sedjiu

KUWAIT Messenger of His Majesty the Emir of Kuwait State

LITHUANIA President Dalia Grybauskaite Prime Minister Andrius Kubilius

LUXEMBOURG Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg

LATVIA President Valdis Zatlers and his wife

MACEDONIA President Gjorge Ivanov

MEXICO Foreign Minister Patricia Espinoza Cantalleno

MOLDOVA Acting President Mihai Ghimpu

MONACO Prince Albert II

MONGOLIA Vice-President of the Grand National Churału

GERMANY President Horst Koehler, Chancellor Angela Merkel

NIGERIA Foreign Minister Odein Ajumogowia

NORWAY King Harald V

NEW ZEALAND The Governor-General Anand Satyand

PAKISTAN Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar

Special Representative of the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Nabil Shaath

RUSSIA President Dmitry Medvedev

ROMANIA President Traian Basescu

SERBIA President Boris Tadic

SLOVAKIA President Ivan and his wife Gaszparovicz President Pavol Prime Minister Robert Fico Toolbar

SLOVENIA President Danilo Turk

President of the UNITED STATES Barack Obama

SWITZERLAND President of the Confederation Doris Leuthard

SWEDEN, King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden's Foreign Minister Carl Bildt

TURKEY President Abdullah Gul

UKRAINE President Viktor Yanukovych's Foreign Minister Konstiantyn Hryszczenko

Vatican Cardinal Angelo Sodano

President Laszlo Solyom HUNGARY Prime Minister Gordon Bajnai

UNITED KINGDOM The Prince of Wales Charles

ITALY Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and President of the Senate Renato Schifani

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES Culture Minister Abdul Rahman Mohammed bin Nasser Al. Owaais Ambassador Asim Mirza Al. Rahmah

The ceremonies will represent their country ambassadors from Angola, Brazil, Chile, Philippines, Indonesia, Yemen, Cambodia, Kenya, LEBANON, MALAYSIA, MALI, Namibia, Peru, SRILANKI, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Tunisia, Uruguay, Côte d'Ivoire.

EUROPEAN COMMISSION Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and his wife Commissioner Janusz Lewandowski

NATO Secretary General, Anders Fogh Rasmussen

COUNCIL OF EUROPE The Secretary-General Thorbjorn Jagland

Order of Malta Grand Chancellor of the Order of Jean Pierre Mazery.

Thats the list form two days ago. There will be a few more extra official deleagtions (98 Countries, 69 official delegations and 29 ambasadors

Scouting organistion taking care of the the yard in front of the Presidantal Palace have thrown 330 tonnes of burn candles already. Every burnt candle is replaced with the new ones by people waiting in silence in front of the palace.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Sudayev