Why is this game not more popular?

[Defunkt 431]

It's strange how despite being told that the only plans for PR:Arma2 at the moment are British units and vehicles, people still think that it's drastically going to change the MP scene... :rolleyes:

Nonsense, units and vehicles are largely incidental, what Project Reality is renown for is adversarial gamemodes that promote teamwork on public servers and this has been confirmed to be a goal for the ArmA 2 port also. What I find strange is how defensive and threatened it appears to make all the co-op players. :rolleyes:

[Zipper5 74]

*snip*

Yes, well, shall I say that's what the initial release is supposed to contain. Who knows how long it will be until they actually start to put in these hypothesized "teamwork-enforcing" features.

What I find strange is how defensive and threatened it appears to make all the co-op players. :rolleyes:

I'm not a coop player, I'm a PvP player.

Anyways, we don't even know yet what they'll bring, so saying that they're going to revive the Arma2 PvP scene is simply guessing.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Zipper5

[*LK1* 10]

Yes, well, shall I say that's what the initial release is supposed to contain. Who knows how long it will be until they actually start to put in these hypothesized "teamwork-enforcing" features.

I'm not a coop player, I'm a PvP player.

Anyways, we don't even know yet what they'll bring, so saying that they're going to revive the Arma2 PvP scene is simply guessing.

http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f380-project-reality-news/77777-project-reality-arma2-14.html

from the source:

"just to clarify for all those people wondering, with the PR mini mod the armies you would have to play with would be

Blufor:

USMC

Brits

CDF (Ficticious army from arma2 stock map)

Opfor:

Russian

insurgents

Independent:

guerillas (can be made to be blufor or opfor)

and civilians"

is a bit more than brits vs tally talibans.

hypothesized "teamwork-enforcing" features.

hypothesis?well it's proven that these solutions work and they reach their goal.in pr for bf2 is a matter of fact.i don't really know why they shouldn't work for pr arma 2.are we genetically differents?

What I find strange is how defensive and threatened it appears to make all the co-op players. :rolleyes:

*

well here we have another question for psychological forums :rolleyes:

Edited April 14, 2010 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[raedor 8]

Guys, this is not a 2nd PR thread, so please stop discussing "PR only" here.

[celery 8]

The whole problem are the players (people..), they need a mod that FORCE them to cooperate with each other. That isn´t related to the game.

We have some PvP gamemodes (since simple CTF to a more complex AAS like Devastation(who trie to imitate PR) and similar modes), but if those dont work, well, thats because of (again) players (BCing,Lone Wolfing, TKing, whatever).

Sure, some forced features might make players look like they are working together, but how much room does that leave to actual tactics? If a player is far away from his teammates but kills a crapload of enemies by himself leaving others to do their part with less opposition, how is it not teamwork? Sometimes teamwork's definition is idealized as keeping the squad together with every member shooting in the same direction from the same position as the others, but with A2's player densities it's just impractical. True teamwork is employing everyone's abilities to the fullest within the limits of the game mode, with the goal of winning the game.

[galzohar 31]

True teamwork is employing everyone's abilities to the fullest within the limits of the game mode, with the goal of winning the game.

Agreed, the problem is every player would interpret it differently and thus end up running on his own just like all the other players, and often even say "screw this, nobody is trying to win, so I won't either!" :(

[*LK1* 10]

True teamwork is employing everyone's abilities to the fullest within the limits of the game mode, with the goal of winning the game.

this is a part of what teamwork should be,is also moving as a squad,formations(the most difficoult aspect for casual players..),cooperation.

but this is just a semantic problem :o.

real problem is i never saw in any game-mode a milligram of teamwork.in evolution

most of the guys are lonewolfing to reach an high scorepoint so they can take some tank/jet to annihilate everything.in berzerk,the most lonewolf map, i never seen,not a squad,but 2 players cooperating eachothers.sometimes i saw a bit of cooperation in domination missions.

we can go all in goal server but i don't think they can accommodate the whole comunity.and also a good amount of people can't have fun to play against AI.

so how we solve this problem?

with some brainwashing operation or..?

---------- Post added at 07:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 PM ----------

Sure, some forced features might make players look like they are working together, but how much room does that leave to actual tactics?

step by step...is better than how the situation it is at the moment.

honestly i always see more teamwork in counterstrike,pr,even in bf2 vanilla sometimes,raven shield but not in A2.how the hell is that possible?

If a player is far away from his teammates but kills a crapload of enemies by himself leaving others to do their part with less opposition, how is it not teamwork?

i can call him a good chuck norris not a teamplayer.you can even be usefull to your faction without using a bit of teamwork.

Edited April 15, 2010 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[=FI=Sacktime 10]

What's killing the joy of this game for me is, mods. Don't get me wrong, I have allot of them and enjoy them greatly, but the true fun factor for lack of better words is defiantly multiplayer. But despite searching, I can not resolve connection to servers, I get kicked because I don't have a CA\Addon folder. Seems every server requests this. It's disheartening when I tell my m8s that the game is good but good luck jumping into the multiplayer world, things will turn sour very quickly.

So until I can sort CA mod or what ever it is sorted, I'm stuck in SP mode.

[Zipper5 74]

CA is a key part of your Arma2 and if you're missing it then there's something wrong with your Arma2 installation. If it's CAA1 you're talking about, that's a mod that brings over some elements of ArmA into Arma2, and you can download it here.

[celery 8]

this is a part of what teamwork should be,is also moving as a squad,formations(the most difficoult aspect for casual players..),cooperation.

but this is just a semantic problem :o.

My whole point was that moving in formations as a squad is an idealized fantasy that doesn't have much to do with how to win the mission, so it's not as much teamwork as it is dying together when a lucky enemy player surprises you.

real problem is i never saw in any game-mode a milligram of teamwork.in evolution

most of the guys are lonewolfing to reach an high scorepoint so they can take some tank/jet to annihilate everything.in berzerk,the most lonewolf map, i never seen,not a squad,but 2 players cooperating eachothers.sometimes i saw a bit of cooperation in domination missions.

we can go all in goal server but i don't think they can accommodate the whole comunity.and also a good amount of people can't have fun to play against AI.

From my point of view Evolution and its different versions are small scale MMOs where you grind XP and do what you want. Berzerk is a BF2 kind of mission with scattered objectives and freedom of choice in equipment. Both concepts encourage playing alone the way you want. In smaller scale game modes such as CTF, A&D and AAS the objectives are clear enough so that anyone with half a brain can do his part or risk having no action at all, which was why they joined the server in the first place.

so how we solve this problem?

with some brainwashing operation or..?

Some game modes just don't have an incentive to work towards a common goal. They might have too many choices meaning a selection of weapons and vehicles that makes you want to fulfill your sniping/piloting fantasies, or all objectives are available for capture, resulting in a scattered battlefield with chaos everywhere but actual action nowhere. I wouldn't bother fixing a single symptom when what the patient needs is a bullet in the skull.

i can call him a good chuck norris not a teamplayer.you can even be usefull to your faction without using a bit of teamwork.

If the guy who keeps the enemy dead isn't a teamplayer, how exactly do you define teamwork? Should he have been within a grenade throw's distance from his comrades or should he have left some enemies alive so that they could kill his teammates later on?

[galzohar 31]

Some people only kill enemies for the sake of killing them, not caring how much it helps to get the objective done or not. Sure if you see someone it's probably the best to kill them, but going away from the objective to kill someone who camps a meaningless spot is not teamplaying. But killing people who are defending the objective that your team is attacking is doing your part in the team, whether you want to define that as "teamwork" or not. But anyway, true teamwork is actually telling your buddies what you're doing and how to help you and/or help them when they need help, communicating enemy positions, etc, rather than just killing what you see - Sure killing what you see helps the team, but you can do better than that.

[*LK1* 10]

If the guy who keeps the enemy dead isn't a teamplayer, how exactly do you define teamwork? Should he have been within a grenade throw's distance from his comrades or should he have left some enemies alive so that they could kill his teammates later on?

a good lone wolf simply.even a sniper can take out half of an opponent team so is very usefull for his team but is not a teamplayer and is not doing something related with the teamwork.

---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 AM ----------

My whole point was that moving in formations as a squad is an idealized fantasy that doesn't have much to do with how to win the mission, so it's not as much teamwork as it is dying together when a lucky enemy player surprises you.

mmm if you do that with trained players is very usefull, i saw some squad doing it in PR.you also should realize that if a game is based on particular

respawn sistem instead of the classical 10/15 sec. people will not act like rambo so formations could be very usefulls.

From my point of view Evolution and its different versions are small scale MMOs where you grind XP and do what you want. Berzerk is a BF2 kind of mission with scattered objectives and freedom of choice in equipment. Both concepts encourage playing alone the way you want. In smaller scale game modes such as CTF, A&D and AAS the objectives are clear enough so that anyone with half a brain can do his part or risk having no action at all, which was why they joined the server in the first place.

agree but i don't see the reason why mapmaker shouldn't find a way to enforce cooperation..

[celery 8]

a good lone wolf simply.even a sniper can take out half of an opponent team so is very usefull for his team but is not a teamplayer and is not doing something related with the teamwork.

You didn't really answer the question which was "how exactly do you define teamwork?"

mmm if you do that with trained players is very usefull, i saw some squad doing it in PR.you also should realize that if a game is based on particular

respawn sistem instead of the classical 10/15 sec. people will not act like rambo so formations could be very usefulls.

Experienced players don't do any of that because they know it's a waste of time. Play any pvp mission that way and you'll get killed over and over again because you didn't concentrate on spotting the enemy and moving in a way that keeps you out of trouble.

agree but i don't see the reason why mapmaker shouldn't find a way to enforce cooperation..

Forcing cooperation is a very difficult thing to do artificially if the game mode itself doesn't encourage it. Because a script can't think by itself, it has to know the exact conditions that makes a player uncooperative and when to give him bonuses for being a jolly good teamplayer, and because there are different styles and definitions for teamwork, the system is bound to upset people or at the very least limit legit tactical possibilities.

[*LK1* 10]

You didn't really answer the question which was "how exactly do you define teamwork?"

working with the team,staying with the team both of these factors must be respected for me.is not sufficient to join a squad and kill shit...

Experienced players don't do any of that because they know it's a waste of time. Play any pvp mission that way and you'll get killed over and over again because you didn't concentrate on spotting the enemy and moving in a way that keeps you out of trouble.

well maybe i was not so clear but i was not talking about a berzerk,surely if you do it in a berzerk is pointless.

Forcing cooperation is a very difficult thing to do artificially if the game mode itself doesn't encourage it. Because a script can't think by itself, it has to know the exact conditions that makes a player uncooperative and when to give him bonuses for being a jolly good teamplayer, and because there are different styles and definitions for teamwork, the system is bound to upset people or at the very least limit legit tactical possibilities.

yeah of course i don't have said the contrare.surely there must be a game mode which enforce tm.

:j::j:

[whisper 0]

Maybe check my sig (yes, shameless plug).

I keep hearing people stating "wee need this, we need that".

Did you try AAS, modifications of it (like PvPScene, for example), A/D (like the ones built by Galz for example), my CTB?

I for one try to get enforced teamplay, mainly through ET-like class system. That's one way of doing it. Above example use other techniques. Did you try them (and provide feedback, because that is what us mission makers are needing), before making statement about lack of teamplay oriented PvP missions?

[celery 8]

working with the team,staying with the team both of these factors must be respected for me.is not sufficient to join a squad and kill shit...

So what do you qualify as working with the team? Why is staying close to your team important? There isn't much to do other than kill enemies and complete the objectives you have, and the first is usually the key to the second. Moreover killing enemies before they even have a chance to kill your teammates is even more useful to your team than doing it when they are already in danger.

well maybe i was not so clear but i was not talking about a berzerk,surely if you do it in a berzerk is pointless.

Then in what kind of pvp mission is it useful and why? I play in AToW which is a fairly tactical tournament with 14-20 players per side capturing linked objectives, and moving in a close group invites death. There's nothing more exciting for me than spotting a tight group of 3-5 enemies because once I have them in my sights I can kill them one by one within a few seconds. I also played in IC-Arma, a somewhat bigger but similar tournament in Armed Assault where staying in a formation was equally useless.

[galzohar 31]

The biggest problem with formations is less about the formation, and more about people just bunching up much more than they should. Even if you keep a line/whatever formation IRL you should still be at least 15m away from eachother, and in Arma 2 probably even further than that. There is an advantage to covering a large area knowing that wherever the enemy will come from someone will have a gun pointing at him, but yes, standing all grouped up so you can all be taken out at once is stupid, both in Arma 2 and IRL.

Another problem is that in Arma 2 it's too easy to hit stuff and it's too hard to see stuff, so basically when you spot someone it's an instant kill and it might take him a while to spot you (same goes when he spots you, he'll instantly kill you and you won't be able to spot him. Whoever spots the other guy first is a combination of luck, knowing your way around the specific mission/area, screen resolution and sharp eyesight, and not all of those factors are representing something realistic). IRL you would be lucky to shoot 2 guys that are in a team moving in a proper formation before the others punch 20 holes in you, unless you're a sniper with very good camo in a very good position (which is not possible in game, though what is possible is being so far away you become pixelated), and even then by the time you shot the 2nd guy they all went prone and went in cover (and again in Arma 2 there isn't all that much cover which is one of the reasons I said spacings in Arma 2 need to be much bigger than the standard RL 15m).

[*LK1* 10]

So what do you qualify as working with the team? Why is staying close to your team important

mmm i don't have said you just need to stay close to your team,i'm not so dumb.

working with the team,staying with the team both of these factors must be respected for me.

your teamwork definition:

If a player is far away from his teammates but kills a crapload of enemies by himself leaving others to do their part with less opposition, how is it not teamwork?

:butbut::butbut:

for me is not teamwork

when you kill tons of enemies when you are a part of the squad but you dont move with them;is just something usefull to your faction but is not teamwork at all.

mate are we really flamming about the "teamwork" definition?

i can even be wrong but i guess you are confusing usefulness with teamwork.

Then in what kind of pvp mission is it usefull and why? I play in AToW which is a fairly tactical tournament with 14-20 players per side capturing linked objectives, and moving in a close group invites death. There's nothing more exciting for me than spotting a tight group of 3-5 enemies because once I have them in my sights I can kill them one by one within a few seconds. I also played in IC-Arma, a somewhat bigger but similar tournament in Armed Assault where staying in a formation was equally useless.

though was clear i was talking of pr.

but if you want to know my clan has organized campaigns involving 80/100 players(ADW for arma 1). in that case it could be usefull of course.

and in general, in my opinion,it could be an usefull tactic in some PvP maps with particulars respawn times.so it will be difficoult to find a kamikaze moving around the corner and using his GL to kill the whole squad which they are moving togheter and in formation.because he will not spend his life for some hard kamikaze action to gain a lot of kills if he need to wait a decent number of second before spawning again(assumption but in pr it works).

Maybe check my sig (yes, shameless plug).

I keep hearing people stating "wee need this, we need that".

Did you try AAS, modifications of it (like PvPScene, for example), A/D (like the ones built by Galz for example), my CTB?

I for one try to get enforced teamplay, mainly through ET-like class system. That's one way of doing it. Above example use other techniques. Did you try them (and provide feedback, because that is what us mission makers are needing), before making statement about lack of teamplay oriented PvP missions?

i could have a suggestion for you if you want to improve the teamwork in PvP maps.but i don't know if you will appreciate.

do you have bf2?can you download it/but it?download pr and take a look at the structure of the game..

but if you want i can simply specify every solution that makes pr MP a teamwork oriented game.

you have just to ask and i will send you a PM cuz i guess i will be banned if i name PR again :D

Edited April 16, 2010 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[celery 8]

mmm i don't have said you just need to stay close to your team,i'm not so dumb.

for me is not teamwork

when you kill tons of enemies when you are a part of the squad but you dont move with them;is just something usefull to your faction but is not teamwork at all.

mate are we really flamming about the "teamwork" definition?

i can even be wrong but i guess you are confusing usefulness with teamwork.

You said "staying with the team". What is the maximum distance when you are still staying with your team? And what does "working with the team" include? I ask because previously I asked you what teamwork is and I haven't gotten an answer with real examples and definition.

To me the definition of teamwork is as I already said: using every team member's abilities in the best way possible to win the game. If it includes a lone player shooting enemies in the back far from his friends so that his friends can complete an objective with minimal resistance, I don't see why it isn't a part of the teamwork that makes his team victorious. Useful non-teamwork would be doing something good by accident without an apparent effort to help the team achieve its primary goal, such as camping in a completely irrelevant place but noticing and killing some enemy who tried to flank there.

though was clear i was talking of pr.

but if you want to know my clan has organized campaigns involving 80/100 players(ADW for arma 1). in that case it could be usefull of course.

and in general, in my opinion,it could be an usefull tactic in some PvP maps with particulars respawn times.so it will be difficoult to find a kamikaze moving around the corner and using his GL to kill the whole squad which they are moving togheter and in formation.because he will not spend his life for some hard kamikaze action to gain a lot of kills if he need to wait a decent number of second before spawning again.

In a game like that it's even more important for your side to sacrifice your own life to take the lives of many enemies, because they too will be out of the game for a long period. The importance of killing in the game is simple mathematics: killing X amount of enemies takes X amount of enemies out of the game for the duration of respawn and travel, and you save Y amount of lives which is all the teammates those enemies would have killed if you hadn't stopped them. Groups moving in formations are easy to spot and eliminate, so could you explain the reasons why a formation is a good tactical trick against human players compared to scattered individual movement?

[*LK1* 10]

You said "staying with the team". What is the maximum distance when you are still staying with your team? And what does "working with the team" include? I ask because previously I asked you what teamwork is and I haven't gotten an answer with real examples and definition.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

dude i don't have nothing against you,but you should try to report what i've said instead of report part of my words.

working with the team,staying with the team both of these factors must be respected for me.is not sufficient to join a squad and kill shit...

for me "working as a team" means taking covers,looking at your angles,helping teammates if you are a medic and they are wounded,giving suppressive fire when is needed ecc.(you never played pr right? i mean is not a crime but..)

hope this definition is enough.

trust me is just a problem of semantic.probably you'll consider a "teamwork"

if a medic come close to your squad to heal 1 of your member than he move away and you will not see him for the rest of the match.i could call that a casual/singolar help not "teamwork".

guess you are confusing a squadwork which in MP is called "teamwork" with something usefull for your faction.

In a game like that it's even more important for your side to sacrifice your own life to take the lives of many enemies, because they too will be out of the game for a long period. The importance of killing in the game is simple mathematics: killing X amount of enemies takes X amount of enemies out of the game for the duration of respawn and travel, and you save Y amount of lives which is all the teammates those enemies would have killed if you hadn't stopped them. Groups moving in formations are easy to spot and eliminate, so could you explain the reasons why a formation is a good tactical trick against human players compared to scattered individual movement?

omg should i have really,first probably you missed my point when i've told you

that moving in formation can be usefull in some sort of game-mode(even PvP) with some features.

should i have to tell you the advantages to move in formation?guess is becoming a bit bizarre the conversation here.

is more usefull because you reduce the possibility to be ambushed/surprised,because you can flank an enemy while the rest of the squad is giving you suppressive fire....probably you will not believe me but in some games (cough cough pr)that happens most of the times..and i repeat,it's usefull if you play in a realistic or at least a not completely arcade game-mode.

if you move as a fool you turn an angle with your gl and you see 3/4 guys you can even try to spam your grenade on their legs even if you will autokilled.but if you have no very fast respawn and you get more second to spawn each time you suicide yourself you will not try it again and you will start to use your brain instead of rambo lone wolfing.you should also consider that you can even fail an attack like that,but if you dont get a malus(in term of more second x spawn)and generally the respawn time is only 10 sec. you will do it again.

of course these things will not work in berzerk maps where most of the guys dies more than

10/15 times in 1 hour.berzerk is like a dm but with squad, i mean it's played with the same attitude.try to increase the heavy vehicle spawn,try to increase each time you die the respawn time or make a long default respawn time(at least 30 sec).give a malus(in terms of respawn) on players which has commited a suicide.make the flag cappable only with 3 guys at least..and for me you will start to see people cooperating eachother(assumption but noone is god here..).

Edited April 16, 2010 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[Steakslim 1]

I've seen squads moving in formation work well in pvp, they just have to avoid some of the mentioned death traps they can fall into, one being bunching up and staying in a spot they can easily get surprised or pinned down. That and actually communicate to one another.

[whisper 0]

i could have a suggestion for you if you want to improve the teamwork in PvP maps.but i don't know if you will appreciate.

do you have bf2?can you download it/but it?download pr and take a look at the structure of the game..

but if you want i can simply specify every solution that makes pr MP a teamwork oriented game.

you have just to ask and i will send you a PM cuz i guess i will be banned if i name PR again :D

OK, so you're definitely not looking for teamplay in ArmA2, but for Project Reality in ArmA2, in which case yes, I see why you would be disappointed, A2 is not PR, but you can wait for PR to come in.

PR is not the only teamplay oriented game out there, and its solutions for teamplay are not the only ones possible....

[Alex72 1]

Exactlly. I dont know how one can say ARMA is not a teamplay game? It all depends on who you play with. Big freedom in games (as ARMA) needs people to step up and take charge, and the others need to follow the leaders commands.

When comms fail in ARMA or you have people not wanting to take charge or lead - then you have disaster. But ARMA does not impose many boundaries on the players and its very open and free so therefor its essential with players on the same page. At least when it comes to team work. I know this because i play this game - with people that lead/follow.

I feel sad for those who hasnt experienced this yet in ARMA cause its a beautiful thing :o: (sorry got something in my eye). Getting into a team or just bunch up with some good players is what it takes even though you can find this sometimes on pub servers as well. Usually becuase they have structure in form of leaders/admins and followers. When you do experience what im talking about you will know. :)

LegendKiller: there must be a game mode which enforce tm.

Yeah games with lots of boundaries and rules. I know the free roam style of ARMA can be hard for some. Explained above.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Alex72

[Zipper5 74]

You know, with the announcement of PR:Arma2, I was afraid this would happen. Mod's great. Some of it's community... Eh...

Listen - LegendKiller, we respect you like PR's style of gameplay. We like Arma2's style of gameplay. If you want PR's, then play PR until PR:Arma2 is released. If not, well, stop trying to change "the game". It ain't broken, it's just not what you like.

At the end of the day both are a game, and real life does not apply to them. You could play it like real life as you seem to enjoy, but you won't win when the others play it how it's supposed to be played. In games, whatever your team does to successfully win the game is good teamwork. In real life, whatever your team does to stay alive and accomplish their objective is good teamwork. Much higher price to pay in real life.

However, we don't need another PR thread.

[whisper 0]

I don't think A2 is not what he likes, just that he doesn't want to try different possible implementation of teamplay missions.

Berzerk is not the most teamplay thing out there, but Berzerk is not "ArmA2 MP PvP".

That's a slight issue with A2 openness, as it's very flexible, everyone has his own view of what should be done (and which can be done), and will dismiss anything going slightly away of the perceived Holy Truth. When, with such a flexibility game, we should go the opposite and experiment as much as possible, if you ask me