Who designs these missions?!

[My Fing ID 0]

The campaign is the biggest problem I've had with the Arma series. The first one things seemed fine. I'm on a patrol. Oh shit, tank, run to the 113, gtfo. Next mission, I'm holding a town with my fellow soldiers. Hey we're doing good! Then the mission that made me quit the campaign. I'm all alone, and I have to blow up a bridge. Not only do I have to blow up a bridge, I have to blow it up after the enemy has crossed it, trapping them on my side of the river. Then I have to evade all those enemies. So doing that I come to the next objective: Use a HMMWV with a TOW and a few AT-4s to hold off a few tanks and BMPs. What? Why the hell don't I just, oh, say, pull the fuck out! They have tanks, I have a target with an engine! So after that nonsense I quit the campaign and just played my own missions.

Then, Arma2. First mission goes by, I'm pretty happy. Couple of enemy at night, a few civilians mixed in for good measure, some mass graves, sense of being part of a small team behind enemy lines, all good. Then the next mission: Kill a sniper. First, the only thing I know is that he's in the northern half of the city. Check, kill the sniper somewhere in a few Kilometer area north of me. Oh he's by two smoke stacks, well that's gunna help immensely in this industrial area. Can a get a grid square at least? Seriously, real life situation I'm at least going to get a 6 digit grid square. If they want me to kill a sniper, rather than say call in a tank (oh that's coming right up), they need to give more more instructions that "northern half of the city in the industrial sector by some smoke stacks".

So after getting shot a few times having no clue where the hell this guy is, I finally meet up with the 'suppressed soldiers'. He's so suppresed he can't even be bothered to find cover. He's right in the middle of the road, laying down infront of a tank. First thing that enters my mind, "why is he in the middle of the god damn road". Next thing was, "why didn't he tell the tank to engage the sniper?" Really just killed it for me. I quit the campaign and again went back to doing what I do best, downloading user content and making my own missions.

So Eagle Wing comes out. I figure hell, I'll give them one more shot. Maybe this time they won't waste my time with garbage. To my surprise they didn't, the garbage was right at the start. I flew along, low and slow, suddenly theres a target. My gunner and I engage, good kill. I'm pretty happy. This is looking like it's going to be a fun mission. I finally reach my objective. Leaving aside the Sparta joke (which, IRL, with enough people it's a god damn guarantee someone's going to yell "this is Sparta!"), I found the real joke. Radio picks up. "Hey chopper guy, go shoot down these airplanes while they take off." It's like being a caveman in the Geico commercials, you just can't win. Who in their right mind sends a helicopter to an enemy airfield to shoot down fighters? Maybe I missed something, but last I checked you don't use helicopters to shoot down planes. They're there to protect ground forces. That's why the Army uses them. If they were there to shoot down airplanes, we'd see helicopters made with air to air combat in mind. We don't, because copters don't shoot down airplanes.

Anyways great job with the game. It's fun and almost certainly the most realistic game on the market when it comes to infantry/combined arms (no offense but the driving model isn't great and flying is like flying a responsive brick). Your campaigns though... I mean I know you guys can do some better research than this. I'm sure you can find plenty of epic firefights and try to emulate them. Before you know it you're going to have me using a toothpick to take out a tank.

[-Shifty- 10]

AFAIK they don't have the USMC with them on a day to day basis to tell them how to use the weapons properly.

[Heatseeker 0]

EW was originally meant to use that ugly comanche stealth helicopter.. and you have to take out the su25's before they take off, its very simple..

[zdavid99 10]

EW was originally meant to use that ugly comanche stealth helicopter.. and you have to take out the su25's before they take off, its very simple..

aren't the rules of engagement in EW that you are not

allowed to attack the su25's until they are airborne?

[Zipper5 74]

The original operation order was to move to Sparta and shoot down the Su25s as they take off. Did you read the briefing at all? Also, it's not exactly hard. I recommend using manual fire and a combination of sidewinders and your cannon. Really easy stuff. In fact, that's the only easy part in the mission. And no, you engage them whenever you can. It's actually easier to destroy them when they're on the ground. 2 Sidewinders each will take them out.

A quick forum search would have revealed that EW was not designed with the idea of realism being at the forefront. Instead, it was designed to be Hollywood-esque with great action and suspense. Still, it's not hard at all to shoot down the planes so long as you remain stationary.

Also, if you were to try your hand at mission making you would see how hard it is to fill everyone's needs. Most, like myself, enjoyed EW and enjoyed Harvest Red (up until the Warfare missions, at least). Sure Harvest Red has bugs, but it's still fun to play. My guess is you're rushing into it without reading the briefings or following orders. If you did, then you would have known from the get-go that you have to shoot down the Su25s, not be surprised by it when you reached Sparta.

[whisper 0]

If you only did the first mission of EW, you missed the whole thing.

The chopper thing is only an excuse to make you be there.

But I guess the secodn mission wouldn't be real enough for you

[My Fing ID 0]

The original operation order was to move to Sparta and shoot down the Su25s as they take off. Did you read the briefing at all? Also, it's not exactly hard. I recommend using manual fire and a combination of sidewinders and your cannon. Really easy stuff. In fact, that's the only easy part in the mission. And no, you engage them whenever you can. It's actually easier to destroy them when they're on the ground. 2 Sidewinders each will take them out.

A quick forum search would have revealed that EW was not designed with the idea of realism being at the forefront. Instead, it was designed to be Hollywood-esque with great action and suspense. Still, it's not hard at all to shoot down the planes so long as you remain stationary.

Also, if you were to try your hand at mission making you would see how hard it is to fill everyone's needs. Most, like myself, enjoyed EW and enjoyed Harvest Red (up until the Warfare missions, at least). Sure Harvest Red has bugs, but it's still fun to play. My guess is you're rushing into it without reading the briefings or following orders. If you did, then you would have known from the get-go that you have to shoot down the Su25s, not be surprised by it when you reached Sparta.

I don't know if it's because I have the German version or because I was running ACE 2 but there was no briefing. If there was believe me I'd of read it. I just figured that a game made to be a realistic infantry/combined arms sim would also have realistic missions. No one sends a helicopter to attack fighters. It's not an issue of shooting them down, it's that helicopters aren't designed with air to air combat in mind. It's like sending a combat engineer to kill a tank. Sure with the C4 and det-cord they have they could do it, but wouldn't it make more sense to tell the guy with the Javelin to do his job? Why not, instead of having people take down planes, have you take out a few tanks in a staging area? if they really wanted you to take out those planes, why not have you shoot them on the ground, maybe even thrown in some AAA and other flight whose mission it is to take out those AAA? There are ways to make a Hollywood fight without making things over the top.

Yeah, I guess the missions are what they are, but like I said I figured they'd at least try for realism rather than just straight Hollywood. I'm just surprised how many people are all for these kinds of missions, especially from a community the prides itself on realism. Anyways I'll just wait for the next expansion, can't wait to get back into a Bradley. Hopefully they'll do a better model than ACE did, which isn't bad but isn't right. Also be nice to see lasers (night sights and range finders) get some love in the series, but I don't think that's coming any time soon. Still, one of the best games I own.

[Inkompetent 0]

You can put yourself low at Sparta and wait for the Su-25s to take off, then put two Sidewinders up their tail pipe as soon as they pass you. Worked well for me.

[max power 21]

I don't know if it's because I have the German version or because I was running ACE 2 but there was no briefing. If there was believe me I'd of read it. I just figured that a game made to be a realistic infantry/combined arms sim would also have realistic missions. No one sends a helicopter to attack fighters. It's not an issue of shooting them down, it's that helicopters aren't designed with air to air combat in mind. It's like sending a combat engineer to kill a tank. Sure with the C4 and det-cord they have they could do it, but wouldn't it make more sense to tell the guy with the Javelin to do his job? Why not, instead of having people take down planes, have you take out a few tanks in a staging area? if they really wanted you to take out those planes, why not have you shoot them on the ground, maybe even thrown in some AAA and other flight whose mission it is to take out those AAA? There are ways to make a Hollywood fight without making things over the top.

Yeah, I guess the missions are what they are, but like I said I figured they'd at least try for realism rather than just straight Hollywood. I'm just surprised how many people are all for these kinds of missions, especially from a community the prides itself on realism. Anyways I'll just wait for the next expansion, can't wait to get back into a Bradley. Hopefully they'll do a better model than ACE did, which isn't bad but isn't right. Also be nice to see lasers (night sights and range finders) get some love in the series, but I don't think that's coming any time soon. Still, one of the best games I own.

You realize these missions weren't designed for ACE, right?

[My Fing ID 0]

You realize these missions weren't designed for ACE, right?

I understand. That's not the point. After seeing a few error in this run (the movies were really borked as well) I'd have disabled ACE if I wanted to go through the mission. The problem isn't that I can't do it, it's that I'm in a helicopter and I'm being sent to intentionally shoot down airplanes. You don't send a helicopter to kill an airplane anymore than you send an engineer to kill a tank. That's not their job. That's the point I'm trying to make. It ruins the feeling that you're in a realistic combat scenario when you're sent on unrealistic missions.

It's just like the sniper thing I brought up. I have no clue where he is other than the northern half of the city yet I'm supposed to go kill him. Why was I not given a better idea where he was and why didn't the guy tell the tank he's laying in front of to engage the sniper? Hell why didn't the guy in charge send the tank to begin with! Seriously though, first thing I thought when I got that call was "give me grid coordinates" which is exactly what I would have asked if this were a real life scenario. You don't tell an infantry unit there's a sniper somewhere in a few kilometer area and tell them to engage. That's just asking to get people killed.

In the end the point isn't it's too hard, it's that the scenarios are unrealistic in the first place. If I was interested in continuing believe me I would, but I'm not. That's the entire reason I haven't turned off ACE and shot down those planes. It's not too hard, I just don't want to do it because I know it's just going to just get me into another unrealistic scenario, probably attacking a tank with c4 or some other rubbish. I'm just disappointed that these scenarios weren't made to be at least a little more realistic.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Just try it without ACE. I didn't like the first part of EW either. Believe me you won't expect what happens.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

In the military, it's your job to do what you're told. The sniper is not a requirement, but will happen one way or the other. There can be plenty reasons why a tank is not sent to handle him, none of which you really need to know. Why did Operation Anaconda get to proceed with only air support and no artillery support (or vice versa, can't remember). The decision was made high up and there is nothing you can do about it, and it turned out to be a really bad move. Army does stupid things! And many times they have done idiotic heroic things which nobody would have done without orders to do so, or simply due to necessity.

As do you, if you leave the campaign that early, and for that reason... I like the campaign because I think it "feels" right. I'm the same kind of guy in the same kind of team throughout the game. Unlike older campaigns (OFP) I don't go from infantry grunt, via spec op, to tank commander and attack heli pilot in a few days. Although fun and challenging, it was less realistic. It's a game and needs to have challenges, otherwise most would find it boring. But hey, maybe MW3 will be the right game for you ;)

Sure, everything can be made better. But at least I'm not killing companies single handed like in all other games. In all other fps games you're almost constantly involved in some sort of firefight. In Red Harvest, you're slightly more roleplaying (will never be enough of that though, at least for me) some dude which might actually have been there. If you've missed out on Razor Two and Manhattan missions due to a commander taking "cover" in the middle of the road, probably due to mission technicalities (who knows what ACE or whatever addons you're using screws up), then I feel sorry for you.

Wrt believability, my worst campaign so far has been Arma1, the best Arma2 closely followed by OFP resistance (but more for character development than believability). The split personality ones didn't "do it" for me.

[Lal 10]

It's like being a caveman in the Geico commercials, you just can't win. Who in their right mind sends a helicopter to an enemy airfield to shoot down fighters? Maybe I missed something, but last I checked you don't use helicopters to shoot down planes. They're there to protect ground forces. That's why the Army uses them. If they were there to shoot down airplanes, we'd see helicopters made with air to air combat in mind. We don't, because copters don't shoot down airplanes.

Well the helicopter has anti-air rockets iirc so I don't really see why it can't shoot down planes. The reason they are there by helicopter is probably because they wanted to do a stealthy low altitude insertion anyway. Besides, that part of the mission is extremely easy, and realism aside I really don't get how you didn't get past that part. It's as simple as: switch to missiles, lock on, fire. That's it.

[Deadfast 43]

EW was never about realism, Gaia said it himself.

[Yoma 0]

EW is about fun, and atmosphere, not realism?

[My Fing ID 0]

Well the helicopter has anti-air rockets iirc so I don't really see why it can't shoot down planes. The reason they are there by helicopter is probably because they wanted to do a stealthy low altitude insertion anyway. Besides, that part of the mission is extremely easy, and realism aside I really don't get how you didn't get past that part. It's as simple as: switch to missiles, lock on, fire. That's it.

I didn't get past it because I quit the campaign. After seeing a helicopter sent in to fight air planes, I knew I'd just end up disappointed again when later in the campaign I'd be sent on other ridiculous missions.

[whisper 0]

EW was never about realism, Gaia said it himself.

EW is about fun, and atmosphere, not realism?

Just to be sure the point is understood.

Stop nitpicking about mission realism, you're missing the whole campaign (1st mission is just for intro) over useless issues

[pj[cz] 2]

Well, BIS said many times that aside being realistic this "program" is also a game. And not everyone likes super real missions where you have to always check logistics, travel huge distances onfoot and so on. Me personally really liked the Arma2 and Eagle wing campaigns. I think they were the best from the whole series

[celery 8]

Think outside the box and do what's possible and not only what some irl military doctrine says. There are already too many self-restricting or unadaptive people playing the game, don't be one of them.

[-Shifty- 10]

I thought Ah64s couldn't carry sidewinders.

[Zipper5 74]

But it's Gaia/Str's "alternate reality". It was originally designed to be a Comanche, not an Apache. They changed it when they decided to include the Operation Arrowhead Apache in the patch, hence the oddities. However, the campaign is not meant to be realistic, it's meant to be cinematic and fun. The creator himself has said that many times, and I think this will be the last time I say it. It's getting ridiculous repeating the same thing over and over and over and over...

[moricky 211]

The campaign focuses on tense atmosphere while adjusting reality a bit.

It shows how universal ARMA2 engine is - you can create ultra-realistic war simulator or Michael Bay-ish action blockbuster. Only limit is your fantasy (and editing skills, comes to that :)).

... and over and over and over ;)

[Zipper5 74]

You know, it pays to check peoples' signatures once in a while.

I clicked on your EW link, Gaia, and then went to the download page. I had no idea you had your own directors cut. Is it quite different to the one in the patch? Or does it simply use the Comanche rather than the Apache? Nevertheless, am downloading now.

Edit: Never mind, I see what it changes. However, I can't get it to work. Throws up errors at the start, though. Oh well, not a whole lot is changed anyways. Sorry for the offtopicness.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Zipper5

[My Fing ID 0]

The campaign focuses on tense atmosphere while adjusting reality a bit.

It shows how universal ARMA2 engine is - you can create ultra-realistic war simulator or Michael Bay-ish action blockbuster. Only limit is your fantasy (and editing skills, comes to that :)).

... and over and over and over ;)

So you're the guy? Well congratulation on the missions, they are well done and clearly people enjoy them, but they're not what I was expecting. I think you can get the same 'Hollywood' feel and make for a more realistic mission. There are many examples in the current wars in Iraq and Afganistan alone. Marines have been surrounded by the enemy, pinned down over night in a building, Army bases have been overun by taliban, etc. To be honest WWII, Kosovo, Georgia, etc would probably be an even better guides because we're looking at a European nation. I'm sure there are many war stories out there that would make for interesting scenarios.

Then again I'm clearly a minority here, so I guess keep doing what you're doing because you're clearly doing it right. I just figured things would be different, but in all honesty I buy the game for the editor. For me the campaign is just icing on the cake so to speak.

Anyways good luck and despite my complaints you guys make an excellent product and I'm looking forwards to the next release (I really want to get back into a Bradley).

[ProfTournesol 956]

So you're the guy? Well congratulation on the missions, they are well done and clearly people enjoy them, but they're not what I was expecting. I think you can get the same 'Hollywood' feel and make for a more realistic mission. There are many examples in the current wars in Iraq and Afganistan alone. Marines have been surrounded by the enemy, pinned down over night in a building, Army bases have been overun by taliban, etc. To be honest WWII, Kosovo, Georgia, etc would probably be an even better guides because we're looking at a European nation. I'm sure there are many war stories out there that would make for interesting scenarios.

Then again I'm clearly a minority here, so I guess keep doing what you're doing because you're clearly doing it right. I just figured things would be different, but in all honesty I buy the game for the editor. For me the campaign is just icing on the cake so to speak.

Anyways good luck and despite my complaints you guys make an excellent product and I'm looking forwards to the next release (I really want to get back into a Bradley).

That's what this community is about : make things with our own ideas and interests and share them with others. So, implement your ideas in missions and share them with us.