Mid east

[Satchel 0]

I would like to see it remain open too, until now the discussion, unlike threads with even less "explosive" content, remained civilized.

it´s interesting to read extreme right wing comments as well as views that are more distanced.

[Pukko 0]

Errm, sorry for writing "participated in slaughters" before; by the word 'paticipated' i thought of guys in anyway related to acts of unnecessary/unprovoked killing. I thought to remeber reading some confessions at the 'refusenik' site, but could not find them again, rather just writings about them, like:

------------------------

Asaf Oron's statement:

"This is where it became clear to me that the same humane reserve soldier could also be an ugly, wretched macho undergoing a total regression back to his days as a young conscript. Already on the bus ride to the Gaza strip, the soldiers were competing with each other: whose "heroic" tales of murderous beatings during the Intifada were better (in case you missed this point: the beatings were literally murderous: beating to death). Going on patrol duty with these guys once was all that I could take. I went up to the placement officer and requested to be given guard duty only"

"Ofer, a comrade in arms in arms who remained in the service has become a hero: the hero of the second Giv'ati trial. He commanded a company that dragged a detained Palestinian demonstrator into a dark orange grove and beat him to death. As the verdict stated, Ofer was found to have been the leader in charge of the whole business. He spent two months in jail and was demoted – I think that was the most severe sentence given an Israeli soldier through the entire first Intifada, in which about a thousand Palestinians were killed. Ofer's battalion commander testified that there was a order from the higher echelons to use beatings as a legitimate method of punishment, thereby implicating himself. On the other hand, Efi Itam, the brigade commander, who had been seen beating Arabs on numerous occasions, denied that he ever gave such an order and consequently was never indicted. Today he lectures us on moral conduct on his way to a new life in politics. (In the current Intifada, incidentally, the vast majority of incidents involving Palestinian deaths are not even investigated. No one even bothers.)"

Gil Nemesh

"I’ve seen my friends humiliating people, treating them as I would not treat an animal. My friends, forcing an elderly man to do disgrace himself, hurting children, abusing people for fun, and later bragging about it, laughing about this terrible brutality. I am not sure I still want to call them my friends. Why? What leads a human being to treat another like this? In the army we are taught better, I though. I believed that an army that dedicates so much to educate and build morals and ethics, is a good army, as good as an army can be. But I was wrong. All this, like so many other things in enforced education, was brushed off, shoved into a dark drawer, ignored. Those no-longer-friends of mine let themselves to lose their humanity, not out of pure viciousness, but because dealing with it in any other way is too difficult. How can a man say “I do terrible wrongs†and continue doing it? Lying to himself, twisting reality."

----------------------------------

So, I found no 'slaughter' confessions at all, and wether the particular act on those pictures are justified or not does not really matters. There are probably quite some 'black flag' (illegal military actions) actions happening without official knowledge, its rather a question of how usual they are.

But please continue writing about the unequal treating and rights, Avon

[Longinius 1]

"Then why don't they walk out?

Several have escaped and have been interview by a foreign Italian TV station. That was last week. More news not getting through?"

Maybe because they want to help the people inside? Or because the only threat comes from the fire from the IDF forces outside? I have not seen, nor heard, any of the priests saying they were hostages. I have only heard IDF commanders claim that.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

We are not the only forum in Space out there

Of course, I wanted to know if our forum sucks and if the people are all stupid (as I think   ). So I went to google and searched for Israel+palestine+forum where I found many links to read.

It is astonishing how much comments resemble each other. And I am somewhat disapointed the way discussion end. There are always the same strategies involved which show that people have no real authentic defense.

Example 1: (from Isrealforum.com )

Can you imagine if the European Jewry would’ve had banded together and fought back hard after Crystal Night? Instead they were good little boys and girls keeping a low profile hoping that Herr Hitler wouldn’t notice them. The devil could have been destroyed before he grew into an enormous monster.

Nice example and found in basically ever forum. But what has it to do with the Israel conflict? Besides it is a pretty tasteless and disgusting accusal saying that Jews died in concentration-camps because they did not revolt.

Conclusion: here you see the: "look back in (Nazi-)history which shows we are doing the right thing!"

But history doesnt hold any comparable example, sorry! You must speak about now! Tough eh?

Example 2:

We just need a couple more minor terror attacks to happen in the US to refresh peoples memory...

Well this is the typical 'they hurt you too' argument with the 'we are in the same position and fighting for the same goal' message. Again, those two are not comparable. Why? well you can easily sort that out yourself!

Example 3:

They certainly are putting stories on without any facts.

Well, this is a legal and authentic point. But often seem like the last way out. But it is an exit to nowhere, cause now you have no legal base to counterargue! Dump move..

Example 4:

I understand that you're not Jewish or Arab, but what you're saying here is nothing but repeating typical Arab or neo-Nazi lies that have nothing to do reality....

..The fact that there is criticism of the Israeli war on terrorism, is nothing but pure hypocrisy and a stamp of approval for Arab slaughter of Jews....

Well, this is usually specifically addressed to me! But believe me buddy. A German does no longer hides in shame and shuts up if he hears the word Nazi. I am young and emancipated (just like modern women).

Example 5

The world watches the streets of Israel full of Israeli blood, injured children being rushed into ambulances, restaurants, buses, hotels demolished, full of innocent Israelis' body parts, and still the world excuses it and defends the Palestinians' "rights" to slaughter their Israeli victims.

Children often say that: " But mom, Johny started...!" Or in modern terms: you are only looking at their losses not at ours. Damm, I hate that argument: whenever you turn on BBC and hear a representative from any of the two States you hear it, wanna bet? Best answer would be: "well lets talk about their suffering for 15 minutes then about yours!" Now the guy shuts up....hey man I wanted you to talk!

Example 6

I would like to see how long the Palestinians would be around if they were bombing cafes and Discos in Paris, London or Rome on a daily basis. .

Well yeah, you are right! I remember well when spain was occupying and bombarding the Basque country with tanks and choppers to smoke out ETA terrorists!

Example 7

Here are some examples of what happens in response to terrorism in other countries:

1. Muslim Chechnian rebels bomb a Moscow mall. Within 24 hours the Russians dynamite 7 blocks of apartment buildings where the terrorists' families live in Chechnya, and then bomb hundreds of Islamic militants. From that time on, there have been no further terrorist attacks in Russia.

Urrghhh, do I need to say anything? I think we should nuke Australia, they got a rabbit-disease!.. mmmhh

Example 8:

I believe that if 10 - 15% of Muslims think the WTC attack was moral, then we must figure there are at least 100 - 150 million Muslims who are for destroying Israel and wiping us out.

Where the hell...did you get those figures from. But again, nice reference to big brother USA.

Example 9:

"Did you ever wonder *why* everyone hates the Jews?," justifying a thousands-of-years history of persecution, that includes the Holocaust. how could you justify that? oh yeah, because you hate(are jealous of)the Jewish people and their religion and culture.

Oh, this is a master-piece of blonde argument. am I jealous? wait, you say thousands of years history of persecution. And then you say I am just jealous?? how the hell....? (totaly confused)

Anyway, I could show you millions of those repeating 'arguments' and everytime I hear them I stop the discussion. 'Thread closed!' cause this is no basis for talks!

I am not surprised to two countries never approach each other! Nice vocabulary doesnt help if that is your style of talking! ( am I gonna hear the "but you..." argument now?")

[LordZach 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 07 2002,22:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Then why don't they walk out?

Several have escaped and have been interview by a foreign Italian TV station. That was last week. More news not getting through?"

Maybe because they want to help the people inside? Or because the only threat comes from the fire from the IDF forces outside? I have not seen, nor heard, any of the priests saying they were hostages. I have only heard IDF commanders claim that.<span id='postcolor'>

on a news feed one priest said "they had the guns and we didn't. they told us what to do. you figure it out" or a translation anyway

[Longinius 1]

"on a news feed one priest said "they had the guns and we didn't. they told us what to do. you figure it out" or a translation anyway"

If the priests that got out said this surely other media must have picked it up. Have anyone seen anything about this on the net?

[Oligo 1]

What we are missing in these forums is an educated palestinian or an analogous person, who knows the history and situation in Middle East very well. This person would be very useful, because he knows all the standard replies that should be used to counterattack all the arguments presented by Avon and Scout.

Then we poor euros could just lean back on our chairs and watch the shell casings mount.

[Mora2 0]

Well yeah, you are right! I remember well when spain was occupying and bombarding the Basque country with tanks and choppers to smoke out ETA terrorists!"

Please i´m having a little bit of difficulty trying to understand this answer...can you explain it more precisely?

I live in spain and i don´t remeber this happening.....

[Longinius 1]

"Please i´m having a little bit of difficulty trying to understand this answer...can you explain it more precisely?

I live in spain and i don´t remeber this happening....."

I am not sure, but I think that was kind of the poínt. He was probably sarcastic.

[Mora2 0]

Ok....thanks....i felt a little bit scared for a moment.....i was gonna ask him if he was being sarcastic...ok sorry for interrupting discussion....you can go on now....

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Seguro! That was meant to be sarcastic. Meant to be!

[cpl_BOB 0]

WOAH 459 replies in 4 days,, thats got to be a record.?

[Hilandor 1]

one thing that i just heard on the news was that iraq has the 2nd biggest oil production in the world  next to saudi arabia, seemingly iraq have stopped oil export for 30 days in protest of isreali doing whats being reported in the news.

i kinda found it surprising that iraq was second largest in the world for oil production

I wonder if saddam realises whats possibly about to happen to him

[scout 0]

as much as i know, Iraq isnt allowed to sell oil except in exchange for medical supplies and food.

and any way i heard recently that US biggest supplier of oil is.......... Russia (?)

[Hilandor 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 08 2002,17:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">as much as i know, Iraq isnt allowed to sell oil except in exchange for medical supplies and food.

and any way i heard recently that US biggest supplier of oil is.......... Russia (?)<span id='postcolor'>

yes that was mentioned that saddam is going to be starving his country because of this stop on oil production

ive also heard that russia is a big supplier to the US which suprised me too

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 08 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">one thing that i just heard on the news was that iraq has the 2nd biggest oil production in the world  next to saudi arabia, seemingly iraq have stopped oil export for 30 days in protest of isreali doing whats being reported in the news.

i kinda found it surprising that iraq was second largest in the world for oil production

I wonder if saddam realises whats possibly about to happen to him<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry mate, but you are wrong there.

Iraq is insignificant.

Read here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,680917,00.html

[KingBeast 0]

hmm my post didnt register. Anyway i said I think hilly probably meant Iran, because Iran are oil daddies, and i remember reading somewhere that they have threatened to stop oil export and such, but Saudi dont back them, and nor do the actual oil company/ies

[scout 0]

no, its Iraq defenatly.

[KingBeast 0]

"Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has called on Islamic oil-producing countries to suspend their exports to "pro-Israel" Western states.

"The oil belongs to the people and can be a weapon against the West and those countries who support the savage regime of Israel," Mr Khamenei said in a sermon during Friday prayers in Tehran.

Mr Khamenei said that exports should be stopped "for a symbolic period of one month."

Iran is the second largest exporter of oil from the Middle East and a member of the Opec producers' cartel."

(This is from BBC news)

The news initially sent crude oil futures soaring back above $27 a barrel, but by the end of the day, prices had fallen back to close at $26 a barrel.

An Opec rejection of Iran's call also lifted sentiment.

One Opec official said that an export suspension would work to the benefit of non-Opec countries such as Russia, who could raise production to fill the supply gap.

[Hilandor 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 08 2002,18:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 08 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">one thing that i just heard on the news was that iraq has the 2nd biggest oil production in the world  next to saudi arabia, seemingly iraq have stopped oil export for 30 days in protest of isreali doing whats being reported in the news.

i kinda found it surprising that iraq was second largest in the world for oil production

I wonder if saddam realises whats possibly about to happen to him<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry mate, but you are wrong there.

Iraq is insignificant.

Read here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,680917,00.html<span id='postcolor'>

yes this is what i definetly heard on ze telly news not iran   not heard nowt about iran

link

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 08 2002,18:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 08 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">one thing that i just heard on the news was that iraq has the 2nd biggest oil production in the world  next to saudi arabia, seemingly iraq have stopped oil export for 30 days in protest of isreali doing whats being reported in the news.

i kinda found it surprising that iraq was second largest in the world for oil production

I wonder if saddam realises whats possibly about to happen to him<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry mate, but you are wrong there.

Iraq is insignificant.

Read here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,680917,00.html<span id='postcolor'>

If you read an article read it properly. This is not about oil-production in general but contribution to the total OPEC-sale. Well but IRAQ is pretty limited in terms of sales, but not in terms of potential production.

So Iraq right now is a weak contributor, and definetly not comparable to Saudi Arabia, but it has potential to increase production. Actually you could double Iraqa production my simply reducing the recovery factor (term for wastage in the primary industrial sector. E.g. a farmer who wastes land cause he doesnt use it efficiently)

Saudi Arabia supplies around 12% of the western-world demand. If you want the figures ( in german ) go here see page 2 for total oil production per country (OPEC)

Germany gets most of its oil-supplies from Russia, but the US, well I dont know, but maybe?

The US of course also produces oil (we remember Texas). Those entrepreneurs (Texans) would suffer terribly if the Iraq would start selling the black gold again. Then the price of oil could go down from 25$ to 20$ per barrel. Then they could basically close down their oil-fields, inefficient & too expensive. So the US has also a clear advantage of preventing the Iraq to enter the market. But who knows...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 08 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wonder if saddam realises whats possibly about to happen to him<span id='postcolor'>

I am more confused over the reasons why the US would want to start a war on Iraq. It is most certanily not out of consideration over the poor Iraqi people. I don't see how it would be profitable (economy-wise).

The reason that remains is a political one. But it is too soon - the presidential elections are still far away... so I'm a bit confused.

[Hilandor 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 08 2002,19:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 08 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wonder if saddam realises whats possibly about to happen to him<span id='postcolor'>

I am more confused over the reasons why the US would want to start a war on Iraq. It is most certanily not out of consideration over the poor Iraqi people. I don't see how it would be profitable (economy-wise).

The reason that remains is a political one. But it is too soon - the presidential elections are still far away... so I'm a bit confused.<span id='postcolor'>

as far as i can see with news reports etc the reason is because iraq isnt complying with regards to letting inspectors in for the checkin of nuclear/biological weapons.

This was basically what Bush and Blair has said in latest speeches, i think this is coming round because the deadline for them letting inspectors in is around May.

it seems that they are pressuming and probably rightly so that saddam isnt going to comply

[Guest]

That sounds to me more like a motivation then an actal cause. You don't go to war over something like that.

[Hilandor 1]

well i think because of the consequences of biological or nuclear warfare and because iraq has had certain rules laid down that he must comply with   then this is the reason, bush has also mentioned that saddam should be removed from goverment so i think if they go in this time   its all the way.