Is there a demand for this?

[krycek 349]

How about you give the guy some break eh?It's like Im reading a friggin burecracy topic "don't do this,don't do that",it's like he's public enemy nr.1.I'm amazed no one proposed yet to burn the heretic or start a crusade or something.

He started an thread asking if people will find uses for those objects,he didn't claim he made them,he didn't stole them from another addonmaker,yes those objects are from other games and if those developers decide to sue his ass for ripping them it's his problem.

It's not the first time we get objects or models from other games,WK40k,Star Wars,Starship Troopers,Terminator,AVSP,CS weapons just from what I remember now.Reading Wolle post just now I bet not all of those guys who brought those things in OFP,A1 universe asked papa George Lucas or AVSP devs about it.But like always some guys around here start overreacting(big time) and we're left with what?It's not like we have 100 mods per day for A2 and don't know what to choose.

Just in case if some guy decides to throw me the "you don't have morality and don't care if something gets stolen" line I have this to say:I don't agree with someone stealing other addonmaker work,in fact I'm very much against it,but I don't give a flying crap that this guy didn't ring the bell to Infinity Ward's palace of gold to ask if he could rip some objects.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

You all shout loosebruce down over this, but nobody has shouted about Namalsk and all the items and decals ripped from stalker SOC , no? And all you of saying i dont know what its like to make addons, how do you know, go and play cold war crisis for generals, thats my work right there

The creators of Stalker DO allow thier content to be used in other games for non-commercial use. They are the exception not the rule.

[max power 21]

You all shout loosebruce down over this, but nobody has shouted about Namalsk and all the items and decals ripped from stalker SOC , no? And all you of saying i dont know what its like to make addons, how do you know, go and play cold war crisis for generals, thats my work right there

This is because GSC Gameworld have given their permission. If you had read the thread at all, or had been keeping abreast of this issue in the slightest, you would know this already. Perhaps you should edify yourself a little before weighing in on this issue in the future.

@Krycek

How about you give the guy some break eh?It's like Im reading a friggin burecracy topic "don't do this,don't do that",it's like he's public enemy nr.1.I'm amazed no one proposed yet to burn the heretic or start a crusade or something.

He's a big boy. He can handle it.

He started an thread asking if people will find uses for those objects,he didn't claim he made them,he didn't stole them from another addonmaker,yes those objects are from other games and if those developers decide to sue his ass for ripping them it's his problem.

It doesn't matter who he steals from. My guess is that you perhaps are not a content creator yourself and therefore are not sensitive to the issues of artistic authorship. The fact of the matter is that someone's blood, sweat, and tears went into creating *any* content, and that authorship and the wishes of the author, as laid out in the EULA or license, should be respected.

It's not the first time we get objects or models from other games,WK40k,Star Wars,Starship Troopers,Terminator,AVSP,CS weapons just from what I remember now.Reading Wolle post just now I bet not all of those guys who brought those things in OFP,A1 universe asked papa George Lucas or AVSP devs about it.But like always some guys around here start overreacting(big time) and we're left with what?It's not like we have 100 mods per day for A2 and don't know what to choose.

Most often, I think it is fan art, and not dx9 rippage. A precidence of past theft is not an excuse for current theft. This argument above the others you have put forward is abhorrent and fallacious.

Just in case if some guy decides to throw me the "you don't have morality and don't care if something gets stolen" line I have this to say:I don't agree with someone stealing other addonmaker work,in fact I'm very much against it,but I don't give a flying crap that this guy didn't ring the bell to Infinity Ward's palace of gold to ask if he could rip some objects.

So professional artists aren't humans in the same way that addon makers are? Interesting view.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Max Power

[krycek 349]

@Krycek

So professional artists aren't humans in the same way that addon makers are? Interesting view.

Whats with the melodramatic tone? Besides that I didn't called them in any way.I respect those artists by buying their games or products,they worked with "blood and tears" and they got paid for the effort,other than that I don't own them anything else,I'm not going to raise them an altar,if the product was good then I will look forward to their next one.In this particular situation,loosebruce didn't even claim he made them,if he did perhaps then I would have had a problem.

So to answer your question no, I don't put in the same boat addonmakers who make something in their own spare time for free and are more affected if someone claims their work and big shot developers.Just to clarify this is not a situation about "me against the evil corporation".

[max power 21]

Whats with the melodramatic tone?

Someone's using a melodramatic tone. Let's investigate this.

Besides that I didn't called them in any way.I respect those artists by buying their games or products,

No. You fund their employers by buying the products.

they worked with "blood and tears" and they got paid for the effort,other than that I don't own them anything else,I'm not going to raise them an altar,if the product was good then I will look forward to their next one.

Here's where the melodrama starts. I like how you compare respecting artistic and legal rights to 'raising an altar'. You're full of interesting views!

The limits of the product you pay for is present in the EULA. The EULA, to which you agree before you install the product, *IS* the product. I'm glad you do addon makers a special favour by not violating their rights whenever you get the chance, but I think that these rights are basic rights applicable to everyone.

In this particular situation,loosebruce didn't even claim he made them,if he did perhaps then I would have had a problem.

While the crux of the matter is what you and other people like you don't have a problem with, fortunately there are other viewpoints. The very reason why some people are here disagreeing so strongly is precisely because of your loosey-goosey, indefensible albeit widespread viewpoint.

So to answer your question no, I don't put in the same boat addonmakers who make something in their own spare time for free and are more affected if someone claims their work and big shot developers.Just to clarify this is not a situation about "me against the evil corporation".

So you call me out on what I have to say, then you agree with me? Very interesting line of argument. People need to eat. Also, when you draft a letter on behalf of your company, it is the company's letter and your authorship. If you made a really great letter and everyone liked it- it may have even been revolutionary-, then all of a sudden everyone started ripping off your ideas, some taking credit for them and some not, and all the while it reduced the impact of your original until you were for all intents and purposes anonymous, how would that make you feel?

Front line graphic artists are not paid well. By and large, they are paid a salary based on a work week that does not even resemble their actual job unless they are the gifted few that are very, very fast. They do it, like addon makers, because they love it. 6 and 7 day work weeks are not uncommon, neither are 12 hour work days. Imagine the family lives of these people. These may not be the last people you should be stealing from, but they are certainly not the first.

[loosebruce 10]

Ok guys, please no more arguing.

I will stop this as it is really offending everyone. This was purely as a educational project for myself so I could make some movies in Arma 2 e.g. (Black Hawk Down and Behind Enemy Lines) and I was going share the spoils (content I used) with Arma 2 community.

However because of such legalities I guess its not worth the hassle doing anything in ArmA 2 I will just continue this by myself purely for educational purposes.

[krycek 349]

Someone's using a melodramatic tone. Let's investigate this.

No. You fund their employers by buying the products.

I know english is not my first language but to me this sounds like they're slaves and their employers hold'em hostage in their offices.I find that very hard to belive,you mean they don't get paid?So when I'm buying a product only the publisher,distribuitor,employer gets paid and the dev is working for free?!If you meant something else my fault.

Here's where the melodrama starts. I like how you compare respecting artistic and legal rights to 'raising an altar'. You're full of interesting views!

The limits of the product you pay for is present in the EULA. The EULA, to which you agree before you install the product, *IS* the product. I'm glad you do addon makers a special favour by not violating their rights whenever you get the chance, but I think that these rights are basic rights applicable to everyone.

While the crux of the matter is what you and other people like you don't have a problem with, fortunately there are other viewpoints. The very reason why some people are here disagreeing so strongly is precisely because of your loosey-goosey, indefensible albeit widespread viewpoint.

Ok,but let me ask you a question,do you even think that Ubisoft,Crytek or IW whose work we discuss here actually give any crap?You think for example the guys at IW will have an insomnia tonight just because some guys are debating if some guy should ripp their COD models for another game?You don't have to write me arguments for these questions,just a simple yes or no.

This I don't understand,why do you protect those companies?Did you work for one of the games mentioned by the thread opener?Because if you did then I understand and I would say "man,that guy is pissed,he worked on some of that stuff and simply doesn't agree with this,ok".

Regarding the widespread viewpoint you know why is so widespread?Because regular users who download mods won't have a morality crisis and fell from their chair when they push that download button if some of this stuff here gets released.I said this not because I agree with this or you won't,it's just because this happens.Not to get in an infinitely debate I'm talking specifically about this topic.

So you call me out on what I have to say, then you agree with me? Very interesting line of argument. People need to eat. Also, when you draft a letter on behalf of your company, it is the company's letter and your authorship. If you made a really great letter and everyone liked it- it may have even been revolutionary-, then all of a sudden everyone started ripping off your ideas, some taking credit for them and some not, and all the while it reduced the impact of your original until you were for all intents and purposes anonymous, how would that make you feel?

I would feel pissed off,but you know what,that happens in real world and I'm afraid not so rare.For that not to happen you have to change everyone's way of thinking which is why I'm wondering again why this is discussed here in this topic.I'm not avoiding the subject but don't you think you overreact by blowing all this stuff on loosebruce head?This guy came in here to ask if people wanted some stuff and I bet now he's wondering what the hell he started.

Front line graphic artists are not paid well. By and large, they are paid a salary based on a work week that does not even resemble their actual job unless they are the gifted few that are very, very fast. They do it, like addon makers, because they love it. 6 and 7 day work weeks are not uncommon, neither are 12 hour work days. Imagine the family lives of these people. These may not be the last people you should be stealing from, but they are certainly not the first.

Ok so I forced'em to take this road in their live,it's my fault for their crappy conditions at work?I don't feel pity for them you know why?Because a lot of people in the world have crappy jobs,do you go at the guy who washes your car and tell him you're sorry for his work conditions?No,you pay him for the job and move on with your life.Oh and don't get this wrong,if I don't feel pity about them doesn't mean I spit them in the face or hate them.Like I said I respect them with my wallet.

You said it,they do this for passion,good for them,perhaps many people are stucked with crappy jobs and they don't even like that and that for me is far more worse than what you said abouth those work conditions.

I'm surprised you defend those poor artists and yet I don't think IW have done counting their Ferraris or Ubisoft stuffing their bank accounts,I have an Ubisoft studio in my city and know how "poor" those guys are.Poor artists exists,but definitely not the same guys which games we're discussing in here.Again doesn't mean people should steal from them just because they're filthy rich,just that I don't see the word "poor" near words like Ubi or IW.

Anyway I hope you agree that you won't change my opinion about the matter just as I won't change yours.These debates could take eons without any sort of closure.You have your opinion on the matter,point taken just as i have mine.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Krycek

[max power 21]

I know english is not my first language but to me this sounds like they're slaves and their employers hold'em hostage in their offices.I find that very hard to belive,you mean they don't get paid?So when I'm buying a product only the publisher,distribuitor,employer gets paid and the dev is working for free?!If you meant something else my fault.

It's just your grasp of english that gives you this impression, or perhaps your personality. It's not what I wrote.

Ok,but let me ask you a question,do you even think that Ubisoft,Crytek or IW whose work we discuss here actually give any crap?You think for example the guys at IW will have an insomnia tonight just because some guys are debating if some guy should ripp their COD models for another game?You don't have to write me arguments for these questions,just a simple yes or no.

Some might. I would be pretty angry.

This I don't understand,why do you protect those companies?Did you work for one of the games mentioned by the thread opener?Because if you did then I understand and I would say "man,that guy is pissed,he worked on some of that stuff and simply doesn't agree with this,ok".

I didn't state anywhere in there that companies ought to be protected. Your english is quite good so I don't think this is a language barrier. I'm not sure where you get these interpretations from. I'll go more into rights vs. responsibilities when I address another one of your points.

Regarding the widespread viewpoint you know why is so widespread?Because regular users who download mods won't have a morality crisis and fell from their chair when they push that download button if some of this stuff here gets released.I said this not because I agree with this or you won't,it's just because this happens.Not to get in an infinitely debate I'm talking specifically about this topic.

Because kiddies don't see very far beyond their own noses. Not far enough to recognize or even respect people outside of their immediate experience.

I would feel pissed off,but you know what,that happens in real world and I'm afraid not so rare.For that not to happen you have to change everyone's way of thinking which is why I'm wondering again why this is discussed here in this topic.I'm not avoiding the subject but don't you think you overreact by blowing all this stuff on loosebruce head?This guy came in here to ask if people wanted some stuff and I bet now he's wondering what the hell he started.

You would feel pissed off, but you're advocating what would piss you off. This seems inconsistent. You see, people who harbour your view point are the ones to blame... and may I be so bold to say that since these people usually have nothing to contribute themselves, they have no idea what they are doing. Because something happens all of the time does not make it right. That's a fallacious appeal to convention, and it is very weak reasoning. If people agree that people have rights, then those rights are applicable to everyone. If everyone has certain rights, that means that every living person has the responsibility to uphold those rights.

Ok so I forced'em to take this road in their live,it's my fault for their crappy conditions at work?I don't feel pity for them you know why?Because a lot of people in the world have crappy jobs,do you go at the guy who washes your car and tell him you're sorry for his work conditions?No,you pay him for the job and move on with your life.Oh and don't get this wrong,if I don't feel pity about them doesn't mean I spit them in the face or hate them.Like I said I respect them with my wallet.

You said it,they do this for passion,good for them,perhaps many people are stucked with crappy jobs and they don't even like that and that for me is far more worse than what you said abouth those work conditions.

I'm surprised you defend those poor artists and yet I don't think IW have done counting their Ferraris or Ubisoft stuffing their bank accounts,I have an Ubisoft studio in my city and know how "poor" those guys are.Poor artists exists,but definitely not the same guys which games we're discussing in here.

Anyway I hope you agree that you won't change my opinion about the matter just as I won't change yours.These debates could take eons without any sort of closure.You have your opinion on the matter,point taken just as i have mine.

On the one hand you say that people choose their lives, in the other you say that people are stuck where they are. Which is it? Are people determined to be where they are or do that have choice in the matter?

You have a very skewed view of what a front line artist's lifestyle is like. The artists at ubisoft aren't counting ferraris. No doubt that some of the senior staff is very well paid, but the average artist makes an average wage for far above average effort.

[loosebruce 10]

Max Power please stop, this is about Arma 2 not about how well you can break down and scrutinize another persons comments.

[krycek 349]

Because kiddies don't see very far beyond their own noses. Not far enough to recognize or even respect people outside of their immediate experience.

Amazing,so just because they download this stuff are kiddies?You know perhaps I have other things to think about,other that I'm using a chair in my A2 missions that it was actually created by IW and ported by some guy,which again I must state that he didn't even claim he's the original creator.

You would feel pissed off, but you're advocating what would piss you off. This seems inconsistent. You see, people who harbour your view point are the ones to blame... and may I be so bold to say that since these people usually have nothing to contribute themselves, they have no idea what they are doing. Because something happens all of the time does not make it right. That's a fallacious appeal to convention, and it is very weak reasoning. If people agree that people have rights, then those rights are applicable to everyone. If everyone has certain rights, that means that every living person has the responsibility to uphold those rights.

Contributing like what?Addonmaking,texturing,model creator?No I don't know any of that,I just create my own missions,does that mean I don't have the right to state my opinion?You didn't just said all the people should have rights?

You have a very skewed view of what a front line artist's lifestyle is like. The artists at ubisoft aren't counting ferraris. No doubt that some of the senior staff is very well paid, but the average artist makes an average wage for far above average effort.

Perhaps so,but I don't think they live in cardboard boxes.

[[frl]myke 14]

Lads, it's about time to calm down and breath. Let us put some points straight.

- Ripping content from other games without permission from copyright owner.

It's illegal. Period. Although no one would ever blame or even sue anyone if this is done to get some very own experience in modelling as long you don't spread it.

- If you want to offer any addon to the community, you should be owner of the copyright (mean, you made it yourself) or have proper permission from the original creator/copyright owner. No one would be hurt if you, loosebruce, just go and ask for permission. Some might say yes, some say no.

All this goes for community-made stuff as well as for content from other games.

At this point any further discussion is pointless since those are facts which may or may not fit with your personal opinion but your (everyones) opinion isn't of any interest. Just the facts.

@Max Power & Krycek

I suggest you both just stop at this point. Any further discussion just raises the temper unnecessarly and may result in a warning or even ban (depending how this would continue) for one or both of you. So do yourself a favour, stop it as long you're able to, both of you.

And if you both think that my text here was rude, i'm sorry, i'm not english native, blame it on that fact.

@loosebruce

To answwer your question from the topic title:

Yes, there's always a interest for new addons. Just make sure you have proper permissions for the stuff you want release. If in doubt, contact one of the mods, i'm sure they'll help you with a smile....at least most of them. :D

[loosebruce 10]

I have another question. Is it ethical for someone to steal work from a person that stole it from another person?

[Daniel 0]

Pick some loaded questions don't you. :p

Do you think it's ethical?

[[frl]myke 14]

I have another question. Is it ethical for someone to steal work from a person that stole it from another person?

Because the other behaved wrong, it doesn't give you the right to behave wrong also.

Don't you believe it would be better for everyone if all of us would try to behave as good as we can? It starts with small things, you know.

[loosebruce 10]

Well I was just thinking, alot of the GMOD addon makers rip stuff and call it their own and they take stuff off of each other. So how does their content community thrive if there is a majority of them behaving like that? You would expect it to collapse on itself? No?

[[frl]myke 14]

No point to debate. Releasing stuff without proper permissions is not allowed along this Forum. If you know that ArmA 2 addons are based on stuff without the needed permissions, contact a mod about it.

[Daniel 0]

EDIT: Disregard.

[max power 21]

I have another question. Is it ethical for someone to steal work from a person that stole it from another person?

In the case of 3d art, you would not be stealing it from the people who stole it. You would be stealing it from the original authors no matter where you got it from.

[sniper pilot 36]

First off I agree that ripping and all that is 100% wrong.

So PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, where was all this enthusiasim when Gnat ported over those FSX models? I mean sure he never intended to realease them but come on. This guy only asked a question and as he's stated he's not going to release them- only possibly make a movie?

Gnat made screenshots with the CRJ700 from FSX, so what wrong with some moving pictures?

*Yes I know Gnat never took credit

I just don't like hipocracy. And this wasn't a shot against Gnat- just used him as an example. (I love the work he has done)

[b00ce 160]

Well I was just thinking, alot of the GMOD addon makers rip stuff and call it their own and they take stuff off of each other. So how does their content community thrive if there is a majority of them behaving like that? You would expect it to collapse on itself? No?

No, because regardless of the small percentage of assholes that steal form the community and call it there own, the rest have fun making (where applicable) content. It's their hobby. And they love playing the game. They don't worry about repercussions of their actions because, lets be honest, what is EA going to do if someone rips a model from a game they purchased and distribute said model without making a dime? I highly doubt that any legal actions will come from any ripping of models, it's not like they're stealing the whole game and selling it themselves. And I'm reasonably sure the companies have more pressing issues, like getting the next game out the door, than deal with one guy in his mom's basement ripping a handful of models.

Besides, who wants a crappy reproduction when they can have the real thing? There are a lot of "garbage" community made models trying to replicate something from a game, then just next door a couple threads up, there is a ripped version that looks a zillion times better. That said, there are a lot of terrible ripped models too.

Before you go and say anything about the Facepunch community, yes, they do give credit where credit is due, mostly.

Here are a few typical threads.

http://www.facepunch.com/showpost.php?p=18420263&postcount=1

http://www.facepunch.com/showpost.php?p=13374064&postcount=1

http://www.facepunch.com/showpost.php?p=18583979&postcount=1

Hell, check any ripped models release thread yourself. Nine times out of ten there will be proper credits. :j:

http://www.facepunch.com/forumdisplay.php?f=41

No, they may not get "Permission form the author", but let's be realistic here, what company is going to LET you have a model for free? Most of us are poor penniless bastards.

Before you go and scold me; no I am not a modeler, I am a lowly mapper. There is no way I could "rip" a map from any game, short of a game on the source engine. Then what would be the point? I could have just copied and pasted. The only way I can "have" a map from another game is to make it myself. :p

Edit:

And as long as proper credit is given I'm fine with any "stealing"/ redistribution, even modifying, of other people's work. When a person claims something as their own when it's not, however, it's a different situation.

Edited November 27, 2009 by b00ce

[[frl]myke 14]

No, they may not get "Permission form the author", but let's be realistic here, what company is going to LET you have a model for free?

How many times you tried to do so? SARMAT has got permissions from Developers of Stalker:SOC to use models for ArmA 2. So it's definately worth a try. Just do a widespread search for permissions (as many games/developers you mayreach) and then stick with those who gave permissions. Simple as that.

And as long as proper credit is given I'm fine with any "stealing"/ redistribution, even modifying, of other people's work. When a person claims something as their own when it's not, however, it's a different situation.

Your opinion is irrelevant, also is mine. Read Forum rules, read EULA (also of those games the stuff is ripped from), these are the valid points. Proper credits != proper permissions. Period.

[icewindo 29]

How many times you tried to do so? SARMAT has got permissions from Developers of Stalker:SOC to use models for ArmA 2. So it's definately worth a try. Just do a widespread search for permissions (as many games/developers you mayreach) and then stick with those who gave permissions. Simple as that.

Exactly. LinkerSplit also got permission from Crytek to use Crysis textures for his addons... be nice and ask. Doesn't hurt.

And as long as proper credit is given I'm fine with any "stealing"/ redistribution, even modifying, of other people's work. When a person claims something as their own when it's not, however, it's a different situation.[/Quote]

So you are fine with releasing any addons based on the work of someone else without even asking for a permission. Now that's cool... with that attitude, I really hope you fall flat on your face, atleast once.

_________________

Concerning permissions inside this community Placebo once said somewhere in these forums that if enough effort was put into gaining the permission and contacing the author and no answer was gained, a release would be tolerable.

btw: If someone has a link to the quote I would appreciate that.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Icewindo

[[frl]myke 14]

Concerning permissions inside this community Placebo once said somewhere in these forums that if enough effort was put into gaining the permission and contacing the author and no answer was gained, a release would be tolerable.

Even more, if you can't reach the author and he is registered here in this Forum, you may drop a PM to Placebo himself. As he can see contact info which is usually hidden from public, he will try to contact the addonmaker directly to clear things out. If even he fails, he will give permission in place of original author.

[Inkompetent 0]

How many times you tried to do so? SARMAT has got permissions from Developers of Stalker:SOC to use models for ArmA 2. So it's definately worth a try. Just do a widespread search for permissions (as many games/developers you mayreach) and then stick with those who gave permissions. Simple as that.

Haven't EVERYONE got the STALKER stuff to use as they wish as long as it is non-profitable? Hardly anything specific for the SARMAT team. They simply use the freedom given by the devs behind STALKER :)

[Aeneas2020 10]

Would it not be prudent to move this thread (or place it as a sticky) so that this discussion can continue but under a different title. The thread title itself is so ambiguous it's untrue and while i won't say what i feel on the subject i think the discussion, while still relevent to the topic, is well away from the original poster's initial question. I think this is a valid conversation and while it is not something i would ever consider doing because i always like to make my own stuff i can see why people do it. Although permission is key (having dealt with IW before i can tell you they can be very nasty). Anyway just dropping my 2 cents in.