Steam, xfire ...

[Herbal Influence 10]

... what's the sense of that?

I am really just interested ... (refering to this post ).

I don't get it for I never used these .... and I fear BI games get a bit dependent on those companies - at last in the US.

Any info on that?

ps.

I would understand BIS to close this thread as it *might* go into what they might consider as their very own commercial practises and they don't want commercial partners to be bashed here. While - as I understand - this is only the case with Steam not xfire.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Herbal Influence

[ricoadf 0]

Steam wastes resources and forces u to run it to play its games. Mostly its for games that are bought to download, altho some games have it required either way. Personally I wont use it and any game that requires it I wont purchase (Empire: Total War being the 1 exemption, altho even that game is rearly played because of Steam).

[streets 10]

I think any online game where there are communities will need some sort of 3rd party programs for keeping in touch and such. ArmA isn't any different. I don't use steam so can't say a thing about that but xfire is very simple and as it is made for gamers. As a tool it is good also.

[sic-disaster 311]

How would ArmA 2 be dependant on Xfire?

It's just like MSN Messenger, allowing you to chat ingame. (not in ArmA 2 though, it just keeps track of your hours)

[Master gamawa 0]

I ranted a bit in the other topic. Now I am at peace with the universe and myself.

What game devs should understand, is that some players (like me) haven't allowed the damn internet to come in contact with their normal lives and daily activities.

I don't buy stuff through the internet, I don't even know how e-bay works (or what it is really) I don't upload personal pics on facebook, I don't chat, I dont' IM, I don't play multiplayer games online, I don't skype, I don't tweet... The Internet is fine for information, entertainment and work related media as long as it doesn't force me to do stuff.

Then Steam came along and demanded that I am connected to the internet to play on my computer even when I play by my self. That's stupid. I will connect to the internet when my intend is to play with people on the internet. That's like telling drivers "You can't drive your car unless you carry a phone on you"

Then comes the dependency.

I created a steam user profile last year when I bought GTA4. I played the game and soon I forgot all about it. A couple of days ago I bought CODMW2 and started installing. Steam again. Steam means trouble.

Steam means I have to remember a damn password and security question I put last year. Steam means that my personal e-mail is broadcasted on the net. Steam means that if my router breaks I can't play a game I paid 50 euros for. Steam means it took me three hours to get the game running because I had to reset passwords and register serials. Three hours of installation for six hours of playing? Well screw you I got a life to live you utter bastards!!!!

I don't mind if they gave us the choice. I bought the game in a box because I don't WANT to download it or deal with internet bullshit. I want my shiny DVDs and the boxes and the manuals. My internet speed isn't even that good and I don't leave my pc on during the night! It would take days to download 12gb anyway.

I respect people that want that and that's their god-given right.

Just don't force this shit on me please.

I paid for the game disks, not for the privilege of becoming part of the Steam Gaming Experience.

Now as I understand there are a lot of ads on the steam interface and a lof of deals are made under the table. I work in advertising and I hate that shit with a passion.

Count me out.

I am too old for this.

[Lonestar 11]

Xfire and Steam are different even if the differences are becoming slighter because the two companies copy each other.

Xfire now also has a game-selling platform called Xfire Game Store but the biggest difference is that it will never force you to run the application to launch the game you just bought.

Xfire offers the gamers a lot of useful things like ingame video, screenshot and chat.

Anyway the two companies are not charities and they ought to make profit.But in my opinion Xfire cares more about the players needs.

ps.

I would understand BIS to close this thread as it *might* go into what they might consider as their very own commercial practises and they don't want commercial partners to be bashed here. While - as I understand - this is only the case with Steam not xfire.

It is never going to happen. Don't blame it on Bis, they just have to be where the players are.As far as i know BIS is not commercial partner with Xfire or Steam, they just have to cooperate with these sites.

In the end if you don't like them, don't use them!!

But you should try them before you make up your mind.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Lonestar

[Herbal Influence 10]

Steam (....) forces u to run it to play its games. Mostly its for games that are bought to download, altho some games have it required either way. (....)

Ok -- that being true I will never use or recommend Steam.

That'll be just too stupid.

I don't want to have to tell any possible dataminer when I want to go online.

I also understand the feeling of freedom having your own DVDs on the shelf and not being depend on anyone else.

To me BI games open a vast-free-landscape-philosophy.

But lez go on with the started Input/Output-Discussion:

They deliver certain tools (video, statistics etc.) and an internetpage with communityfeelings. These things do cost money (bandwidth, webspace, support).

Who pays this?

Possible answers:

- advertisers (especially the big ones: Microsoft, Intel, Electronic Arts, Codemaster, ... )

- Steam also might get part of the royalties paid by customers for the game ... dunno

- the customers "by allowing" to be "informed" or bombed with messages in your account or with emails?

This all .... ?

[nuxil 2]

i got steam version and i dont see the problem with it..

its just a nice tool to use to buy online games. but nothing more

steam only require you to be online during download / install.. once that is done you can put steam in offline mode. this way you also get rid of thouse anoying updates everyday or so.

[Dwarden 1124]

seems like people not realize several things

1) there is STEAM distribution part

that's the STORE and STEAM client which take care of the deal and delivery

yet the game might be tied to STEAM client only for reason of copy protection

(there are older titles on STEAM released w/o any link to STEAM and could be started standalone w/o STEAM client)

in this case which is typical for ARMA 2 (STEAM client is needed just verify the protection)

nothing prevents the title exist also outside STEAM 'universe' in way of retail release or other online distributions

like GamersGate, Direct2Drive, ImpulseDriven, GamesLoad, Xfire store, Metaboli or Sprocket with theirs own types of copy-protection

the difference between pure download services like GamersGate/Xfire and full online delivery platform like STEAM or ImpulseDriven is

that they also take care of game updates and offer bonus services (see point 2)

advantage of STEAM it's theirs broad world wide cover and huge available bandwidth block to distribue games

and ofcourse the 25+ million userbase (compare with around 2 of ImpulseDriven, 8 of Xfire and like 5-10 of D2D)

thus any complaint again STEAM or Xfire or other download service is sort of ignorance as noone forced the customer to do so in first place

(he has full right to buy it elsewhere in any form of available distribution)

2) there is STEAMworks API part http://steampowered.com/steamworks/

now things are getting more complicated, STEAMworks is platform which game makers can use for improving theirs games

by matchmaking, server listing, backward analysis (e.g. how people progress thru game where they stuck and so on), store gaming profiles/configurations online

(e.g. your ubercomplex game configuration will be saved remotely so even if you loose HDD it will be always reloaded on next install from STEAM) and much more

this is partially comparable to SDK/APIs available from GameSpy, Microsoft (GamesForWindowsLive) and StarDock (Impulse SDK)

if You ask why many developers choose the STEAMworks API over the others it's the price (free of charge)

and until laterly the GFWL wasn't free (Impulse SDK is free) and if i remember right the GS licence was costy

not to mention for other services You need e.g. run own master server for listing MP games while STEAM takes care of that for free again

this ties game to STEAM (it needs the STEAM client to be able operate with STEAMworks API) and game can't be run w/o STEAM client at all

yet the game can be sold thru any other distribution channel (yet many will refuse it claiming it helps STEAM store w/e)

but the ironical thing is that the others (GameSpy, MS and StarDock are running own online stores similar

(some are owned by publishing companies to fullfill the irony bag) to STEAM too (it's always fair blame the others right ? :)

so in this case the game needs STEAM client and STEAMworks but it's not exclusive to STEAM platform for distribution that's all up to publisher / developer ...

---

any complains i hear about are more like the fail of people understand how things works and why ...

there is so many Urban Myths about STEAM that's not even funny (ranging from pure lies to absolute fail of understanding the STEAM platform mechanics)

e.g. them allows to be run in offline mode as long as You played the game on account at least once online

(just disable the PC network card and see for yourself the games will work as long as the game developers not implemented online validation check)

it's not perfect but it's definitely worth it for many developers

(less work, more features, zero to minimal investment cost, massive user base, protection against pre-release leaks)

people need realize that best self-protection for game which is not MMO

is online service and game ID key with profile assigned to it (be it GameSpyID, STEAM, ImpulseDriven or GFWL)

in short the summary is simple if You don't like services like STEAMworks then in future You will be out of luck more and more often ...

Edited November 15, 2009 by Dwarden

[Herbal Influence 10]

Thanx for the informations and clarifications on this.

One question though:

Your last sentences "if You don't like services like STEAMworks then in future You will be out of luck more and more often ..." ... do you mean "the developers" or "the users" with "you" ?

[Anderan 10]

The only digital distribution program that I have found that I like is Impulse. Its quite convenient and unlike steam, you don't have to put it in offline mode when you aren't connected to the internet, it just works.

[Pyronick 21]

I'd like the retail key to be registrable in the Steam client, this gives people to opportunity to use the advantages of the Steam platform while being able to have the game work without the use of Steam.

That looks pretty much win-win to me. AFAIK, there are no costs for the developer.

[Dwarden 1124]

Thanx for the informations and clarifications on this.

One question though:

Your last sentences "if You don't like services like STEAMworks then in future You will be out of luck more and more often ..." ... do you mean "the developers" or "the users" with "you" ?

it mean more and more developers will use them (as you can see with GFWL and SteamWorks API being used already in many games) ...

it's mainly due to matchmaking but for example i like STEAMcloud feature (backup-storage of your configurations,savegames/campaign progress server side)

[Herbal Influence 10]

it mean more and more developers will use them (as you can see with GFWL and SteamWorks API being used already in many games) ...

it's mainly due to matchmaking but for example i like STEAMcloud feature (backup-storage of your configurations,savegames/campaign progress server side)

I try to understand your personal arguments for Steam.

I don't understand what it's worth for developers - I ain't into that.

(In this regard I do only see a danger for BI of getting dependent to them?)

But what is so special about "backup-storage of your configurations, savegames/campaign progress server side"?

I am used to backup my professional data for security reasons and same way I can put my Arma2-data on an external harddisk ... ? Progress in games, campaign would be stored same way .. ?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Herbal Influence

[NoRailgunner 0]

Just curious - why hardcopy and digital distribution should always compete? Why should developers and customers loose their right to choose between distribution systems?

Its understandable that Steam is going to increase their profit and doing all kind of things to be/stay #1. Imho forcing + restricting your own customers to buy your product only via digital distribution isnt the smartest idea.

[Lonestar 11]

advantage of STEAM it's theirs broad world wide cover and huge available bandwidth block to distribue games

and ofcourse the 25+ million userbase (compare with around 2 of ImpulseDriven, 8 of Xfire and like 5-10 of D2D)

Actually Xfire has +14 million registered users now.

You can see the number of registered users and the current users online on this page : http://www.xfire.com/ on the left.

8 million was back in 2007 : xfire hits 8 million users

The most recent press release : Game Companies Can Now Engage Over 14 Million Gamers More Deeply With Xfire's New Communities Platform

[Pyronick 21]

Just curious - why hardcopy and digital distribution should always compete? Why should developers and customers loose their right to choose between distribution systems?

Its understandable that Steam is going to increase their profit and doing all kind of things to be/stay #1. Imho forcing + restricting your own customers to buy your product only via digital distribution isnt the smartest idea.

There are lots of retail games which can be coupled with a Steam account.

Take Unreal Tournament 2007 for instance, it's serial key can be activated on Steam. This will give you access to various Steam services which are stored on the Steam cloud.

These are achievements, keymaps, various other settings, campaign state, personal adjustments for multiplayer, etc.

Steam or Valve does not force you or the developer to anything, as far as I know it's the cheapest way to provide the global market.

The only real disadvantage is the fact that you can't resell your game, but legally you aren't allowed to do that with a retail copy either.

[Dwarden 1124]

LoneStar1 i think it was discussed somewhere as active userbase (not inertaccounts) while STEAM was presenting active accounts numbers

but that's just PR number war anyway :)

[Herbal Influence 10]

There are lots of retail games which can be coupled with a Steam account.

Take Unreal Tournament 2007 for instance, it's serial key can be activated on Steam. This will give you access to various Steam services which are stored on the Steam cloud.

These are achievements, keymaps, various other settings, campaign state, personal adjustments for multiplayer, etc.

Steam or Valve does not force you or the developer to anything, as far as I know it's the cheapest way to provide the global market.

The only real disadvantage is the fact that you can't resell your game, but legally you aren't allowed to do that with a retail copy either.

In my opinion at last in Germany (EU copyright is quite the same) there is a right to resell a software you bought legally yourself on CD/DVD, if you delete everything on your PC and sell the original CD/DVD including security code etc. and leave no copy at your home.

So it would be a real disadvantage to have only a Steamversion.

The courts ask exactly whether you bought it as "incarnated"/"embodied" or just a download possibility.

So a Steam-only-Version would be quite a big disadvantage in this regard.

In this case you need to have the allowance to resell.

But if there is no reason at all not to allow the reselling the copyright owner (or the distributor) *has to* allow reselling of download-only-versions ("originally-not-incarnated-versions") nevertheless.

But Steam etc. might have "good reasons" not to allow reselling like the connection of the very version with the personal profile at Steam etc.

German source.

[Spudeater 0]

The only real disadvantage is the fact that you can't resell your game, but legally you aren't allowed to do that with a retail copy either.

What country are you in?

In the US if you bought an item you have every right to sale it...or run it in a wood chipper if you wish to.

I don't use Steam as it does things when online without user control and thus acts the same way as a virus.

Anything that might have Steam as a built in part of it gets the Steam part blocked in my firewall and the Steam address's are already in my PG block list.

I will not use any online service/sales site that does not send me a hard copy.

After the days of trying to get the demo of Arma2 online with all the corrupted files and hassles I would again never buy a download only copy of anything.

I own a boxed issue of Arma2 now and it has been installed many months but I have only been oline 2 times...so if I could have anything I want my way it would be more free time!

[Mage 10]

I live in the country, there's no computer shops here. The closest one is 30km away.

So why is steam good? cause I'm sitting in my bedroom with my laptop, reading about arma 2, and then I say k, I'll buy it.

I buy it through steam and a few hours after it's ready to be played. No hassle, no waiting for discs to be shipped home, etc.

I like steam myself. And i'm not from the US, like in the 1st post was said, i'm from Argentina.

[Lonestar 11]

Xfire reaches 15 million users: http://www.xfire.com/blog/theblog/1551184/

But still no XIG support for ArmA 2, it has been 6 months since US release (07/07/2009).

The biggest ArmA 2 topic on Xfire forums: http://www.xfire.com/forums/182627/topic/1250421/?p=15

The Official ArmA 2 Operation Arrowhead community on Xfire: http://www.xfire.com/communities/arma2oa/

[BimC 10]

I have to say I love Steam. A lot of retailers only offer mainstream games in contrast to Steam who offers the whole spectrum 24/7.

No problems so far.

[th3flyboy 0]

I kind of wish that BIS and Xfire would work together to get XIG working in ArmA 2. That would open up a whole myriad of possibilities.

[Alex72 1]

That OA info could be updated. Not a word of FLIR wich is a rather big thing.

FEATURES

* 2 NEW GAME ENVIRONMENTS

* DEEP STORYLINE

* NEW FACTIONS

* NEW WEAPONS AND VEHICLES

* ARMA II WARFARE+ MODE

* STANDALONE RELEASE