rundll.exe 12 Posted November 16, 2009 I bet more than 50% of the 'yes' votes were just made by people who don't even own a freetrack device or even know what it is. They voted for yes just for the heck of it. No big difference to other "BIS add this or that" polls which always end up with yes add it no matter what. You might be right partly, bu I think there are quite some people like me, who voted yes without having used freetrack before, but love to start toying with it when there is proper support. I tried it in Arma 1 with some over complicated programs you had to run in a particular order to make it work. It worked ok-ish, but was way to hard to set up. But if freetrack is implemented natively in A2 Im going to make a led-hat for sure.:bounce3: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kklownboy 43 Posted November 16, 2009 They have developed their own API, ... can you direct me to the source code and sdk if they have one? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arrowhead 0 Posted November 16, 2009 can you direct me to the source code and sdk if they have one? https://camil.dyndns.org/svn/freetrack/tags/V2.2/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uglyboy 10 Posted November 16, 2009 At the question, Would you like to see Freetrack implemented, why someone that just read the title topic would vote no? Someone with no specific knowledge or else? You may ask aswell would you like to see Dinosaurs and Coca Cola implemented you will probably have the same results. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rocket 9 Posted November 16, 2009 From my perspective (as a former video game producer, who has now left the industry because I am sick of the BS)... The time to be adding features for ArmA2 has long gone. The title has SHIPPED. Now the BIS team focus purely on correcting bugs. I would be very disapointed if they add any features to the game, as that could potentially create bugs. Making changes to the TrackIR input system, to support another, is a MAJOR departure from the existing code base. That is not how any sensible developer makes games and developers spend much of their time prior to release fighting with the publisher to not have any features added. While anyone can see the merit in adding support for something like this. I have to say, get real - and do some research on the game development industry before making some of these bold calls. For every feature that is added, the risk of causing bugs skyrockets. Save FreeTrack for ArmA3. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arrowhead 0 Posted November 16, 2009 From my perspective (as a former video game producer, who has now left the industry because I am sick of the BS)...The time to be adding features for ArmA2 has long gone. The title has SHIPPED. Now the BIS team focus purely on correcting bugs. I would be very disapointed if they add any features to the game, as that could potentially create bugs. Making changes to the TrackIR input system, to support another, is a MAJOR departure from the existing code base. That is not how any sensible developer makes games and developers spend much of their time prior to release fighting with the publisher to not have any features added. While anyone can see the merit in adding support for something like this. I have to say, get real - and do some research on the game development industry before making some of these bold calls. For every feature that is added, the risk of causing bugs skyrockets. Save FreeTrack for ArmA3. Perhaps you're right. Realistically, I'd be shocked if BIS decided to implement FT at this point. But people still need to voice their support for this wonderful open source project regardless of the outcome. If we stop supporting FT now, then we deny FT its future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-GCA- Salah ad Din 10 Posted November 17, 2009 They have developed their own API, but BIS refuses to implement it citing time contraints and lack of interest. The whole purpose of the poll is an attempt to convince BIS to implement the FreeTrack API by showing that a significant segment of the community is indeed interested. If FreeTrack has an API, BIS should incorporate it. Lack of interest by whom? The community? BIS? TrackIR? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
irR4tiOn4L 10 Posted November 17, 2009 I really think this has something to do with Track IR. Im not familiar entirely with where Freetrack got their API from, but if its decrypted from Track IR (and even if it isnt) Track IR could be placing pressure on a small developer like BIS (who have traditionally relied on Track IR for their headtracking, and would stand to lose from lack of support) to NOT support Freetrack else they will withdraw their support. This might even be part of their agreement (an agreement would certainly need to exist, its just a matter of whats in it) and it is very likely something confidential that they are not able to disclose. So people are best advised to read between the lines and try and get more information on this before assuming its BIS doing it on purpose Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groslezard 10 Posted November 17, 2009 I'd like to see a regular support for freetrack in ArmA 2. BIS it's not too late ! I want to be a legal user !!! ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dm 9 Posted November 17, 2009 Salah ad Din;1491166']If FreeTrack has an API' date=' BIS should incorporate it. Lack of interest by whom? The community? BIS? TrackIR?[/quote']And are you going to pay for the few days worth of programmer wages, electricity and whatnot in order for it to be implemented? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushlurker 46 Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I can well afford pretty much any technology I want. I prefer to support open source projects for several reasons. Besides enjoying the challenge and satisfaction of participating in these projects, I also recognize that similar types of projects in the past have greatly influenced, in a positive way, the technological landscape as we see it today. Me too... it isn't a question of money - for me it was a question of creativity - the precise same reason I chose Arma 2 to create mods for, not OFP: DR or anything else - because BIS encourage/rely on 3rd party creativity, don't they?? PS - I'm fairly sure the suggestions for Freetrack to be implemented in Arma 2 started months BEFORE the release... We watched the encrypted TrackIR API being implemented on several games released before Arma 2 - watched the exact same furore erupt, the exact same pleas, polls, etc over those games too. We watched the makers of DCS:Blackshark release a freetrack-capable version - in Russia only, but not in the more lucrative European market... We watched those same developers panic at the eruption of protest on their forums... We watched them announce the forthcoming implementation of an "in-house open API for headtracking which will have only reduced capability because of a request from TrackIR" "What a shambles", we cried - "please don't do this to us BIS"... They did... Besides this, I bet more than 50% of the 'yes' votes were just made by people who don't even own a freetrack device or even know what it is. They voted for yes just for the heck of it. No big difference to other "BIS add this or that" polls which always end up with yes add it no matter what. Sad to see the (currently nearly 500) votes of Registered Forum Members being so casually dismissed - by a moderator too... What about the (currently 746) votes on the external Freetrack petition - care to rubbish those people publically too?? And are you going to pay for the few days worth of programmer wages, electricity and whatnot in order for it to be implemented I think the increased sales - I know of at least half a dozen people personally who haven't bought the game because of this issue - would probably have covered that... I own 2 copies already, but I'd go out and buy the game again tomorrow if it said "with Freetrack support" on the box - and I wouldn't be alone... BIS have patches and the Arrowhead expansion to worry about at the moment - I don't see them making any moves to implement the Freetrack API in the near future - if at all... Having said that, they may yet surprise us... but that may just be me seeing things through my blindly loyal, but increasingly disillusioned Classic Operation Flashpoint BIS era-coloured goggles... B Edited November 17, 2009 by Bushlurker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rocket 9 Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) As I said above, the game has shipped. You're a programmer bushlurker... as I'm sure you know mate - adding features is a dangerous business! As a producer, it would be over my dead, rotting, smoking, body that I would ever have let a programmer add such a feature to a shipped game. For someone to have suggested it at a morning scrum meeting within the weeks before release, they would have been laughed out of the room. It's incredibly dangerous to add support for new controllers and input mechanisms, adding a new API to the code base, close to a release... let alone after a game has shipped. While its good to get your voice heard - be realistic. No sensible developer would add such features after release due to the inherent dangers (and nor would we, as consumers, want developers to take such risks). Edited November 17, 2009 by Rocket Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushlurker 46 Posted November 18, 2009 Hi Rocket... Yup - I fully agree the time has come and gone... hence me speaking in the past tense above... In truth, I'm tired of the whole sorry debate - I was tired of it six months ago, but felt obliged to contribute - then instantly regretted it... It's a non-issue now as far as I'm concerned... I'd like to have done it the "right way", but - as always, thanks to community patches, it was fixed long ago for those who cared in the first place... If you like the PP FX in arma2 but dislike the blur - Oktanes Bin.pbo patch will fix it - providing you realise you're changing what could be considered "proprietary code" for your own ends - you bought your copy - it's your moral choice... Similarly, if you want to use Freetrack, Quarrions patch will enable it - it changes a different, but equally proprietary code, the .exe... Again, it's down to individual moral choice... In both cases you can say - as people did and do - well, it should have been that way in the first place, or you can agonise over the decision - as people did and do - about whether it's "right" to treat our beloved developers code so casually... I bought two copies, quit agonising and got on with playing - with freetrack... End of story as far as I'm concerned... Back to playing with my pet island and your new and seriously handy veggie-placing script! PS - I'm actually an Archaeologist, not a programmer... :D B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rocket 9 Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) Hi Rocket...In both cases you can say - as people did and do - well, it should have been that way in the first place Whenever someone says something "should" be someway, I instantly get cautious. There are many factors at play regarding tracking support. I like opensource projects as much as the next person, and happily give out my code. BUT. I've worked with TrackIR before, and I'd work with them again. They have excellent, on call, engineers available to assist your project instantly. You can also SUE them if they screw up. These are important things to developers. Also, hardly any developer has the luxuary of chosing several different input mechanisms to support... Ultimately someone has to make a decsion (and it's often the Producer) which input mechanism to support. If it were me, based on what i know and can guess. I would choose TrackIR now, today, and probably tomorrow. The single most important factor to a Producer, is knowing that he can depend on a component being done and delivered. Opensource does not offer the same dependibility as having someone like TrackIR, whom you can sign a contract with, whom is prepared to put their engineers on planes and fly over to fix bugs, whom you can threaten and sue if it all goes horribly wrong. I'm not saying your argument isn't sound, but I'm just saying that commercial and project realities rarely line up with what customers think "should" happen. What may seem incredulous to you, actually has extremely sound and sensible decisions behind them, often which cannot be made public. Edited November 18, 2009 by Rocket Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hyp3rdyn3 10 Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) It's incredibly dangerous to add support for new controllers and input mechanisms, adding a new API to the code base, close to a release... let alone after a game has shipped. While its good to get your voice heard - be realistic. No sensible developer would add such features after release due to the inherent dangers (and nor would we, as consumers, want developers to take such risks). You are categorically wrong, Rocket. You make it sound like radical code changes are required but it is merely an additional code unit that controls the camera, it can be disabled by default so there is no risk of it breaking anything. By adding it in a patch the retail version is clean and only people that apply the patch are affected. Many games had TrackIR support added in a patch, like GRID, TOCA Race Driver 2, LockOn, Ship Simulator 2008, Nitro Stunt Racing, DiRT, IL2, Richard Burns Rally, Warbirds and many more. Also, since Arma2 already has provisions for TrackIR, adding an alternative interface would be incredibly straight forward. Edited November 18, 2009 by Hyp3rdyn3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbal Influence 10 Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) You are categorically wrong, Rocket. You make it sound like radical code changes are required but it is merely an additional code unit that controls the camera, it can be disabled by default so there is no risk of it breaking anything. By adding it in a patch the retail version is clean and only people that apply the patch are affected. Many games had TrackIR support added in a patch, like GRID, TOCA Race Driver 2, LockOn, Ship Simulator 2008, Nitro Stunt Racing, DiRT, IL2, Richard Burns Rally, Warbirds and many more. Also, since Arma2 already has provisions for TrackIR, adding an alternative interface would be incredibly straight forward. Well said, Hyp3rdn3. There is few danger just to give exact info on the interface for the steering. That's all what is needed. Community - that has relevantly helped to make BI games great - would do the rest. But I am not the one to critisize BIS policies. I am a helpless fan and consumer. They simply should know that it probably will not pay out in the long term they are used to think in to ignore their "free thinking" community and to adhere to smart US marketing strategies. US marketing is elaborated and aggressive ("war") as you can see from Intel (had to pay 2 x 1 Billion Euros recently as a damages/punishment for illegal practises) and quite comparable to that, watch Microsofts behaviour. US marketing made it possible that US financial products were sold in Germany that were so dangerous that they weren't allowed to be sold in the US itself. Though the EU has quite a high standard of consumer protection laws. US marketing every day meets with an "outer world" that reacts quite unprepared for it, like the East Germans after the Wall was torn down subscribed to a vast number of insurance policies and other crap they would never ever need. "Agressive" or - as I call it - "US" marketing does mislead easily and effect hot bubbles - like Dragon Rising and the worlds big financial crisis as of now. Remember a hot air bubble of the value of US real estates? And I don't think this community is free thinking in the way that it wants all to be free of costs. Many of us would be happy to pay twice the price for BI games if they only continue with their free philosophy. I asked one engaged coposter in a TrackIR - thread on this forum per PM in a simple and simply quite a decent tone whether he does in any way profit from sells of TrackIR - it's a few weeks now. I got no answer. Maybe he is too busy ;-) but it's the only PM I ever got no answer on. I don't mind if BIS did profit from TrackIR / Natural Point. I like them to profit. But they should see the damage too. It's always dangerous to leave the basic values and rely on hot air and marketing. And from freetrack we all learn that there is some hot air in a 150 US-Dollar TrackIR. And as far as I know it's even more expensive in the EU. I want BI to get that money - for even more improving BI games! But it's not about money. It's about kicking freedom in the ass. Edited November 18, 2009 by Herbal Influence Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jk9 10 Posted November 20, 2009 I'm a noob simmer. It has been almost 1 year since I first flew F4F-4 Wildcat in IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946. It all started with Johnny Lee's Wii remote head tracking Youtube video clip. It was like something I never imagined, expected to see only in some futuristic movies, and I was totally amazed that this whole thing can be achieved with one single Wii remote controller and couple of LEDs. I mean it was like a electronic hand drill for a caveman! So I just had to do everything I can do to find out how to make this thing actually works with videogames. Eventually, I saw another video clip that demonstrates 6 degree of freedom head tracking technology in a flight simulator game, later I found out that it was IL-2 Sturmovik, and realized Freetrack is behind all of this. You would know what happened next. I went straight to Newegg, ordered a Bluetooth dongle and bought IL-2 Sturmovik:1946 at Steam (Actually, I regret it. I should have bought a hard copy of this wonderful game), and went to local electronic shop to buy some IR LEDs. Since then I'm so happy with Freetrack. This is my case and might be a boring story for you guys. Sorry for that. My point is that Freetrack is a plus for game companies. It never ever can be a minus for them. I bought IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946 because I wanted to experience head tracking, and it led me to buy MS FSX, DCS:Black Shark, Rise of Flight, Saitek X52 joystick, and half year subscription of PC Pilot magazine. This series of events would have never happened if there was not Freetrack. I mean who would pay 150+ dollars only for head tracking device when they first start their new simmer experience? Freetrack is almost risk-free since you don't really have to pay much money when you first start which means it can easily drag new people to relatively hard to enter sim world. You see my case. I am so fascinated at this new world and happy to spend my hard earned money. Now you may wonder why the heck this guy is talking all this thing on ArmA II forum. I saw another Youtube video clip. And yes, it was ArmA II. A first person shooter with 6DOF? OMG it is another new world. I started to do another research and as you all guessed, I ended up with the fact that BI turned down Freetrack users. Without Freetrack support, ArmA II is just another military FPS for me (No offence. I know it's got great editors, awesome graphics, and great simulation factors. This is totally my case). Nowadays, it seems like everyone plays FPS which means there are tons of FPS games out there. It's become a hard competition. At this moment, ArmA II is like the only one FPS that support head tracking(OFP? uh.. okay.. but you know what I'm talking about). If people watch the video, I believe they ALL want to get this new technology. They WILL buy ArmA II. BI have to use Freetrack as a marketing. Just supporting Freetrack will surely boost the sales of their games. After all, people are always interested in something new, especially it is risk-free, means no need to spend 150+ dollars initially. I just wanted some information about Freetrack availability in DCS:BS and now I ended up here and write this damn long 'replay'. I have read all the previous replies in this thread and they are all convincing and informative. I now know why Freetrack does not appeal much to BI and other game companies thanks to Rocket. Maybe they don't want to add anymore functions right now, but we still have to keep saying our demands for upcoming games as someone above already said. I think that's the whole point of this debate. I just hope BI read my miserable replay and think a little bit about Freetrack with a different angle. Thank you for reading and sorry for my poor English. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-GCA- Salah ad Din 10 Posted November 20, 2009 ... Ok, I kinda see your point, BUT is there no way at all for BIS to somehow make it possible for some talented guys to either create a Freetrack addon or mod or something (sorry, I am not a programmer) that puts the Freetrack API into the game WITHOUT hacking the exe? I mean, that's the way a community works: open the way, and you can be 150% sure that at least ONE person will walk it, if not several (and if you don't open it, they'll walk it anyway, see the Freetrack hack). Yours truly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparks50 0 Posted November 27, 2009 From latest betapatch: [60457] New: FreeTrack support using FreeTrackClient.dll Now shut up and be happy :p Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
armapaddy 10 Posted November 27, 2009 Wow, glad to see it got added. Kudos to BI! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparks50 0 Posted November 27, 2009 Hopefully someone can test the FT support soon and see if it works. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alef 0 Posted November 27, 2009 It works! Put the FreeTrackClient.dll file in you ArmA2 and/or ArmA2\beta directory and run the game. Remember to enable "FreeTrack interface" in FreeTrack itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arrowhead 0 Posted November 27, 2009 WHAT?!?!?! I am floored... Thank you BIS. THANK YOU! :bounce3: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jorge.PT 10 Posted November 27, 2009 Hopefully someone can test the FT support soon and see if it works. Yes, it works with all available degrees of freedom in arma. I hope that some of the usual bashing towards freetrack stops now and we can start openly talking about freetrack in this forums. I'm now a happy owner of ArmA2. Thank you BI, and to placebo for keeping the pool open for so long. PS:NaturalPoint Vincent banana phone! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fincuan 0 Posted November 27, 2009 Wow, this came completely out of the blue. Thank you BIS, a VERY nice surprise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
