I said "CEASE FIRE"!!!

[santafee 10]

Wow...helloooo?I dont understand why we still talking about if its a bug or "Advanced Tactics".....

there is no WAY me OR MY TEAM was spotted by the enemy AI.

best example was were i was lying with some spetznatz in the gras and letting a patroul pass nearby me.they were allready away,still secure awareness,just walking in the other direction,NR.3 starting his Rambopart.

It just happened too many times to me and for those who dont believe i will soon post a video in here.

[JackandBlood 10]

They will defend themselves, especially in close contact. This is a GOOD thing.

[NoRailgunner 0]

What happen in RL if a soldier doesnt obey a direct order?

What about report/shout eg: "We've been spotted by enemy at <direction>, <distance> !" or "We've been compromised!" or something similar?

It would be better for player to get this important piece of information instead of actual AI behaviour.

Imho its ingame better this way:

#1: until commanding unit doesnt gives the order to "cease fire" - AI should fire

#2: if "cease fire" all units should hold fire - no matter how close the enemy is, just keep on reporting/aiming at highest threat(s)

The orders of commanding units should always have priority and their decisions should have an great effect on success or failure of the mission.

[quickdraw_01 4]

Tried it alot and its a bug my guys were miles away at night I was trying to sneak up on an artillary piece 250m away and my men were on a hold fire, stealth, stay prone order and 1 of them opened fire we were never spotted.I have tried this about 30 times not once did they hold fire when in LOS of target

[MehMan 0]

Then they were detected. AI will only fire if the other AI detects them.

[bascule42 10]

Then they were detected. AI will only fire if the other AI detects them.

I have to agree with that. I've built a mission where there is an enemy squad emerging from a treeline about 250m from my squads, (8 men), position. I always give the squad an hold fire order until the enemy has moved into the open. I've not seen them open fire once. Have had "observing target" comments from my squad, and "enemy, man, in front, of us". They haven't opened fire though.

Although, if the squad was in Combat mode, as opposed to Aware or Stealth, I would expect them to shoot on sight - even with a hold fire order.

[nomdeplume 0]

In Aware mode they seem to automatically enter Combat behaviour if the enemy is detected.

I agree that them shooting at the enemy when in Hold Fire mode isn't strictly a bug, but I do also think they are sometimes too quick to start shooting. Fair's fair, I would probably choose to risk firing sooner than was needed over risking getting shot; I suppose BIS opted to err on the side of shoot-first-ask-later because it's very annoying if they just stand around letting the enemy shoot them.

Might be interesting to whip up a test mission using knowsAbout to see if there's any pattern as to when they break their "hold fire" orders.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

I know it's frustrating, I don't like it either. But that's not how you test it--it's the AI who are being spotted, not you.

Yes, I'm well aware it's that way. Again,

1) I put AI Opfor on one end of the runway,

2) I then spawn in as a single Bluefor. At other end of runway run around, get different weapons out of the crate, have tea and biscuits. Only to see if I can be detected by the Opfor

3) They don't detect me, no matter what short of a gunshot to alert them.

4) First phase of test is complete. They can't see me this far in open ground.

5) Spawn in another Bluefor. Tell him to hold fire. Count to ten. We don't move, breathe, sneeze, etc.

6) He starts shooting.

7) So, by what you're saying he will only shoot if being detected. Then why didn't the opfor detect ME running around on the first part? Does the player character have special camo or super powers? Do the Bluefor squad mates have blaze orange vests on? If they didn't detected me running around like a loon, then how can they magically see my bluefor squaddy, laying on the ground next to me? Which makes him start shooting?

So no, my guy wasn't detected, and started firing.

Edited September 4, 2009 by [RIP] Luhgnut

[nomdeplume 0]

I haven't been able to trivially replicate this. In several tests both at close range and long range slowly moving up closer to the enemy, the enemy opened fire and my buddy held his.

Only once did he start shooting before we were killed, and that was when the enemy had hit the ground and was aiming at us.

What difficulty settings are you playing on? It might be interesting to have the enemy skill and friendly skill set identically to see what's going on.

[Alex72 1]

When i tell them to hold fire - they do. They keep bitching though (very cool!) that they "got target in sight!" and other frases.

If i tell them to HOLD FIRE in the middle of a fire fight - they wont. But thats kinda clear its the leaders fault as you wouldnt tell your guys to stop shoot in the middle of a fight.

Alex

[Wags 10]

I know this has been said before, but if you tell them to "disengage" then "cease fire," they should stop firing.

[Sniperdoc 0]

Wags: That's not the point... they shouldn't fire to begin with if told not to fire.

[BeerHunter 0]

Wouldn't it be nice if BIS had put a page or two in the manual explaining all the various commands and what they are intended to do instead of leaving it up to us , the players , to spend endless hours fooling around trying to figure it out.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

What's totally odd, is that it's seems to be the #2 guy that fires first. Sometimes it's the others, but man, #2 REALLY wants to get shot. I totally, totally agree, that if they are in real danger, they should fire. Also another funny thing about all this, is that if you are prone, and they get spooked, they STAND UP and start firing, instead of in prone. Makes matters even worse.

I've put enemy behind buildings, and we'll be on the other side of a hill, and we go prone with do not fire, as we creep over the crest of the hill to have a look. But I'll see #2's / come off as we are still on other side of hill, so he's getting an itchy trigger finger way early. That guy really wants to shoot someone.

It's truly odd. I just don't trust the command and have to leave my guys in the woods and tell them to watch the opposite direction, then I'll creep up. If spotted, I come running back like a little girl..... but can't take the chance. Now, if the AI didn't do some totally off the wall things all the time, then that's a different story, but in the current state of things, you don't know what's a bug and what's not, cause they do whacky things constantly that don't make sense. Driving down a road, and then turning left to run into a rock in a middle of a field. That's just not right.

[bascule42 10]

Thought I'd check this again. Seems they will hold fire even when being shot at and killed.

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[santafee 10]

Luhgnut;1429883']What's totally odd' date=' is that it's seems to be the #2 guy that fires first. Sometimes it's the others, but man, #2 REALLY wants to get shot.

Same here...it is allways only 1 guy!! which ignores the order,what is...stupid.

We get the same enemy reports here,like"targets in sight" and stuff",but then [ALL Squadguys seen the enemy and reported they got target!!'] only Nr.2 or Nr.3 is attacking.If i dont give the order to the rest of the team to attack,they dont,but they also have spotted the enemy,so they would be in the same dangerzone like Mr.Rambo with Variable 2 or 3.

First i thought its a problem with the Ranks in group,setting me as Corporal and all others as privat then,but it doesnt work.

And like i said...Its REALLY strange that everytime only one guy+never others then Nr.2 or Nr3 engage.

This BUG happens not allways but often enough, i bring the proof soon with an vid-!

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

Thought I'd check this again. Seems they will hold fire even when being shot at and killed.

I can't get mine to do that for anything. WTH?

---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

Luhgnut;1429883']What's totally odd' date=' is that it's seems to be the #2 guy that fires first. Sometimes it's the others, but man, #2 REALLY wants to get shot.

Same here...it is allways only 1 guy!! which ignores the order,what is...stupid.

We get the same enemy reports here,like"targets in sight" and stuff",but then [ALL Squadguys seen the enemy and reported they got target!!'] only Nr.2 or Nr.3 is attacking.If i dont give the order to the rest of the team to attack,they dont,but they also have spotted the enemy,so they would be in the same dangerzone like Mr.Rambo with Variable 2 or 3.

First i thought its a problem with the Ranks in group,setting me as Corporal and all others as privat then,but it doesnt work.

And like i said...Its REALLY strange that everytime only one guy+never others then Nr.2 or Nr3 engage.

This BUG happens not allways but often enough, i bring the proof soon with an vid-!

I'm reinstalling My O/S on my gaming box and soon as done and patched back up, I'm going to mess with this some more. Like you it's mostly #2. Ok so here's another kicker.

Say, #2 get's freaked out, and starts shooting, and the enemy is shooting back, the rest of the guys don't see that as dangerous and just lay there. 9 out of 10 times if someone is shooting at you, I would declare that as being somewhat dangerous. More dangerous than just being spotted, or thought you were spotted. Once one goes bonkers and the enemy starts shooting back, they should all drop out of do-not-fire and start rockin and rollin.

Maybe you are saying the same thing...

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

Thought I'd check this again. Seems they will hold fire even when being shot at and killed.

LOLOLOLOL..... I know what you did. You put the squad in the editor and their combat mode as "Never fire". I can get them to do it that way.

Edited September 4, 2009 by [RIP] Luhgnut

[Trapper 0]

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_Mission_Editor#Combat_Mode

Hidden in the ArmA Editor pages is this more detailed info.

I suspect the bug you're experiencing when the enemy isn't doing anything hostile towards you and your rambo far away in a test mission, is located in a very low knowsabout threshold. Supposed to give your AI enough reaction time to have the first shot.

units that are both aware of their individual presence and can harm them

I could interpret this even as the early moment when the enemy ai does report something like: "Unknown man. 1000m." At this time they are already aware of your squad member but won't do anything because knowsabout is too low to identify the target as foe. Should you or your ai identify the target as "Enemy man. 1000m" that could be enough then.

I think even in ArmA2 an ai group without waypoints/scripts doesn't move out to investigate unknown reports and as long as the faction is unknown there's no visible change in combat mode/animations.

EDIT:

Your other units will be waiting patiently for you to take HOLD FIRE back because they don't have to be detected at the same time and there will be no code to simulate the idea of immediate fire support/attack commencing.

A jumble of the OFP never ever fire problem mentioned earlier and the new solution to it in ArmA 2

Edited September 4, 2009 by Trapper

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_Mission_Editor#Combat_Mode

Hidden in the ArmA Editor pages is this more detailed info.

I suspect the bug you're experiencing when the enemy isn't doing anything hostile towards you and your rambo far away in a test mission, is located in a very low knowsabout threshold. Supposed to give your AI enough reaction time to have the first shot.

I could interpret this even as the early moment when the enemy ai does report something like: "Unknown man. 1000m." At this time they are already aware of your squad member but won't do anything because knowsabout is too low to identify the target as foe. Should you or your ai identify the target as "Enemy man. 1000m" that could be enough then.

I think even in ArmA2 an ai group without waypoints/scripts doesn't move out to investigate unknown reports and as long as the faction is unknown there's no visible change in combat mode/animations.

EDIT:

Your other units will be waiting patiently for you to take HOLD FIRE back because they don't have to be detected at the same time and there will be no code to simulate the idea of immediate fire support/attack commencing.

A jumble of the OFP never ever fire problem mentioned earlier and the new solution to it in ArmA 2

Ok, good point. But here's what has me bugged on that. I just did a test mission and I can totally see your point. But, say you are on one end of a football field and I'm at the other. You have a gun and I have a gun. I start walking towards you, you see me, but just stand there looking at me without a threatening gesture what so ever. How would I know you then see me and make me shoot you first? Even if I was told "do not fire at that guy for any reason." There is nothing to initiate the firefight other than the fact you see me. You don't know who I am, or what my intentions are. There is nothing to clue me in to your brain, to let me know you even just see me. And still that doesn't really prompt me a retaliatory or first strike action/reaction on my part. It's like, "Well he sees me, (how I would know this, is the problem), so since I picked up on his thoughts and I know he sees me, I better shoot him first before he figures out who I am and shoots me."

I'm converting my video for you tube and will post. It clearly shows the confusion/bug/feature. And I found another strangeness during making the test mission. I told my guy to stealth and crawl up to the enemy, but I told him to stay prone. He didn't fall off Do not fire. Not only that.... he crawled up to the Opfor squad to within 10m before they even saw him crawling around on the tarmac. A whole squad couldn't see him until within about 45 feet? It's not consistent.

Edited September 4, 2009 by [RIP] Luhgnut

[InFireBaptize 0]

Thought I'd check this again. Seems they will hold fire even when being shot at and killed.

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ok, let them fire "don't issue anything in the beginning" then issue hold fire command.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

ok, let them fire "don't issue anything in the beginning" then issue hold fire command.

ok, tried that. and it works like yours. They will get shot all to pieces once you issue the "hold fire" order after they break it. Apologies.

[InFireBaptize 0]

Luhgnut;1430206']ok' date=' tried that. and it works like yours. They will get shot all to pieces once you issue the "hold fire" order after they break it. Apologies.[/quote']

it must have been fixed? this is weird, i'll try it myself tonight, or could be a command issued "danger" prior to issuing "hold fire" prevent them from holding fire?

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

Okay here's a Youtube I did showing EXACTLY the frustration/confusion/bug/feature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP1GzKU9ydk

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------

it must have been fixed? this is weird, i'll try it myself tonight, or could be a command issued "danger" prior to issuing "hold fire" prevent them from holding fire?

nah, I was challenging how he got his squadies to not shoot and get shot up. They still break hold fire on initial order.

[InFireBaptize 0]

Luhgnut;1430220']Okay here's a Youtube I did showing EXACTLY the frustration/confusion/bug/feature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP1GzKU9ydk

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------

nah' date=' I was challenging how he got his squadies to not shoot and get shot up. They still break hold fire on initial order.[/quote']

cool, you should have continued and issued hold fire to see if he obeys your order, not to argue the point that anybody would do that in real life but just to see if the order would be obeyed.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

cool, you should have continued and issued hold fire to see if he obeys your order, not to argue the point that anybody would do that in real life but just to see if the order would be obeyed.

Oh he will. But by then we're screwed. And I would want them to keep shooting cause they already goofed.