Does the grass effect the AI, is my game fudged or am i insane?

[_pi_ 10]

My contribution :)

Yesterday, playing with AI I did set AI as my commander, and that AI marked for me things I was suposed to see and selected them with a red circle, damn my AI commander was 5k away from me and he instructed me to atack those I see, and important thing also, if that enemy moved behind a hill-tree-building it was still marked.

Note to AI, stop keeping targeted things that hide from your FOV.

[nomdeplume 0]

Yesterday, playing with AI I did set AI as my commander, and that AI marked for me things I was suposed to see and selected them with a red circle, damn my AI commander was 5k away from me and he instructed me to atack those I see, and important thing also, if that enemy moved behind a hill-tree-building it was still marked.

For better or worse, all contacts are shared amongst the members of a group, so if you or another squad member could see the bad guy then your leader knew about it.

Also, the AI guesses where enemies it can't see are. Vehicles can be heard from a long way away (probably too far) and will become valid targets, however the indicated position of it may be innaccurate.

They also keep track of targets they've lost sight of and try to guess where they currently are. You'll often find if you go after an enemy that's behind a hill, the targeting icon will suddenly jump somewhere else when you do actually spot them.

The position of not-currently-visible enemies is frequently inaccurate, but it's never presented as such. This can lead to some unpleasant surprises if you rely on it too much. :)

[squelch 0]

Grass clutter does appaer to hinder the AI's vision as confirmed by Maruk, and can be proved to work as evidenced in the walk test missions.

There is a bug with units aurally detecting slow moving tanks, and this is being addressed in patch 1.03 I understand.

Using the nearTargets command and placing markers where the enemy percieves you to be, shows that they can be very inaccurate. Switching to the AI internal camera shows that they will look for you and try to pinpoint your location. This is all very natural and to be expected.

Where it does break down is after the AI have detected your location, no amount of hiding will protect you. This can also be see by monitoring a subordinate AI team members internal camera in recruit mode. The target icon will show exactly where they think you are. If they then lay down in long grass, they can still see the target reticle. It might be safe to assume the AI have this ability no matter what the difficulty level, and the displayed target is only for the player.

To illistrate this, I cite the following experience:

I have been firing at an AI soldier who moved behind a fir tree. I lost sight of him, but he still apparently knew exactly where I was as he fired through the tree foliage with pinpoint automatic fire without trouble.

It is this last problem that seems to be at the root of biggest complaints, but is hard to identify during battle.

In summary, the AI do find it hard to see your location in clutter, but once they have identified you, there is no hiding regardless of how well you perceive yourself to be hidden.

PS. The AI's perception of your location starts at around 100 diameter of your real location at distances greater than 400m, but too quickly narrows to you exact location even in bushes. When hiding in cover and firing at AI they can pinpoint you to within a meter in a very short time. For a player we know the general direction and it takes a little while to pinpoint the shooter. It is the speed of acquisition, and the relatively long knowledge time after that seems wrong for AI. For example as a player we hear incoming fire from the tree line about 200m away but cannot see the shooter. If the shooter stops firing. We still only know the general direction. For the AI, they can pinpoint you far too quickly

Edited July 30, 2009 by Squelch

[bravo 6 0]

As a matter of fact and unlike popular belief, the AI is affected by grass in Arma 2. There is approximation for clutter surrounding every unit affecting how well the AI can see it.

In my opinion what was said by Maruk is not enough to fix what we need, it still not enough to solve the problem!

The issue seems to persist (will persist after version 1.03) and it is destroying the game, we are losing some new players that don't know how BIS works (constant updates and improvements).

@Squelch: In your experience you don't mention if you move position after your suppressing firing to the AI. Naturally he ears where the fire comes from and fires back.

Now if you move among the tall grass and if the AI was unable to see trough the clutter, you would be able to hide in the grass, move among it and escape the enemy thread. But if you do this i bet you would be shot and killed very fast, meaning the grass clutter is there for visual candy and what Maruk mentioned is not enough!

Theres no doubt BIS still need to improve this problem, like Maruk him self referred it. I believe BIS will fix it, with time, but not for the next 1.03 patch. Until then i will wait for my ArmA2.

[Taurus 20]

what you wrote

Naturally I forgot to say the AI unit had this setUnitPos "DOWN" in its init.line...

:(

OFC if someone is standing and you laying down the standing person would spot you first...

[squelch 0]

I

@Squelch: In your experience you don't mention if you move position after your suppressing firing to the AI. Naturally he ears where the fire comes from and fires back.

Now if you move among the tall grass and if the AI was unable to see trough the clutter, you would be able to hide in the grass, move among it and escape the enemy thread. But if you do this i bet you would be shot and killed very fast, meaning the grass clutter is there for visual candy and what Maruk mentioned is not enough!

Perhaps you missed my point. The AI does in fact have trouble with spotting you at first, but once he has, the targeting is too accurate regardless of your visibility. It is after you have been spotted it becomes a problem and not being spotted in the first place.

I was around 175m from the target in light ground cover and did not shift position. the AI still obviously knew where to fire even though he could not possibly see me. The incoming fire came through the upper half of the tree, and would suggest he fired from approximately 20m behind the tree which corresponds to his last known position and my elevation.

[LeadCommando65 10]

PS. The AI's perception of your location starts at around 100 diameter of your real location at distances greater than 400m, but too quickly narrows to you exact location even in bushes. When hiding in cover and firing at AI they can pinpoint you to within a meter in a very short time. For a player we know the general direction and it takes a little while to pinpoint the shooter. It is the speed of acquisition, and the relatively long knowledge time after that seems wrong for AI. For example as a player we hear incoming fire from the tree line about 200m away but cannot see the shooter. If the shooter stops firing. We still only know the general direction. For the AI, they can pinpoint you far too quickly

You are truly right with this point. I experienced this situation too often myself. Unless I have the feeling that they spot you too quickly anyway, especially if you don't move (not even breathe), and this creates a really hard game.

It would actually add a lot more atmosphere, if the AI would be firing on predicted locations like a human, too. Imagine, you lay between bushes in grass, as suddenly bursts of fire are impacting to your right or left side. Just stunning :eek:

sry, I was dreaming....

[H.A.L 10]

What the developers have done so far is very good. Makes playing sneak missions actually worthwhile now, which i couldn't in arma1. So i'm happy.

Question: Does having the sniper guille suit model make you 'less visible' to the ai?

I seem to remember in ofp, the Spec-op model meant i could crawl right next to an ai soldier.

[Richard Bruce Cheney 10]

There was a LOD fix/mod available for Arma 1 which nearly completely solved this issue.

But sure enough the AI is too good at finding and firing at your exact position as well. Even at long range and/or in concealed areas.

What's the name of this mod? ArmA1 has a permanent home on my HD, so I would love to check it out.

[50.cal 10]

What's the name of this mod? ArmA1 has a permanent home on my HD, so I would love to check it out.

Here's the link : http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=2314

[JackandBlood 10]

you need the option "the ai is not considering grass as concealment" cuz "your game is fucked" implies that only you have the problem (and then that brings up FADE and etc) and "You're insane" well that could be true and all other options are still valid.

[nomdeplume 0]

you need the option "the ai is not considering grass as concealment" cuz "your game is fucked" implies that only you have the problem (and then that brings up FADE and etc) and "You're insane" well that could be true and all other options are still valid.

The poll was a bit confusing, but the OP was actually demonstrating that on their copy of the game the AI is affected by the grass. Since the popular opinion was that it had no effect, the poll options make sense: you can either agree that the grass does affect the AI; or you can declare it doesn't and the OP's game must be fucked if it does.

Obviously the third option should always be ticked regardless of the choice you made for the first two.

[NeMeSiS 11]

The poll was a bit confusing, but the OP was actually demonstrating that on their copy of the game the AI is affected by the grass. Since the popular opinion was that it had no effect, the poll options make sense: you can either agree that the grass does affect the AI; or you can declare it doesn't and the OP's game must be fucked if it does.

Obviously the third option should always be ticked regardless of the choice you made for the first two.

Yeah the poll itself wasn't completely serious anyway, i just wondered how many people would click on the 'You are insane' button. :p

I didn't add a 'The AI isn't affected by the grass' since i was convinced that it did and didn't want to give people the option they want to have just because they think that is right. After all, i am better then everyone and thus i am right. Other opinions shouldn't be allowed to exist.

But seriously, of course my game isnt broken, its the same 1.02 as everyone elses. :p

[novafluxx 10]

Hopefully this **** is fixed by the time i get the game in 2 months.

The one thing i cant stand in games are AI that see me while im prone in a bush over 200 feet away.

You're waiting to buy it too eh? :-)

Looks great, I bought ArmA 1 just because the ArmA 2 demo, and because I LOVED OpFlash back in the day, however, the current state of ArmA 2 prevents me from spending 50 dollars

[bravo 6 0]

Can we conclude ArmA2 Patch version 1.03 brings us improvements on this subject?

[Andy09 10]

i am better then everyone and thus i am right.

INSANE!

[King Poulet 1]

Can we conclude ArmA2 Patch version 1.03 brings us improvements on this subject?

I played trial by fire mission earlier with 1.03 at vet.

Still the same problem. Enemies spot you instantly in very dense bushes with no troubles while you are prone or crouched, while you can barely see their heads through the dense grass and still looking where they are while bleeding to death.

[novafluxx 10]

I played trial by fire mission earlier with 1.03 at vet.

Still the same problem. Enemies spot you instantly in very dense bushes with no troubles while you are prone or crouched, while you can barely see their heads through the dense grass and still looking where they are while bleeding to death.

This really needs to be addressed in multiplayer and with the AI...the grass shouldn't be a handicap to the player who has it enabled

[nyran125 10]

Ive tested this a bit. The best way is have 2 guys opposite ends of each other. Lots of grass in between. You will notice the Ai will only spot you if you get up. Or he has a visual. The hard thing about this way of doing it . Is HE can spot YOU , but you cant spot him. Thats the hard thing to deal with for me sometimes. If your higher up and hes lower its easier obviously. It becomes pretty difficult if hes right next to you but you still cant see him and you know if you start firing he will just automatically annihilate you from nowhere. In reality wouldnt it be really difficult for him to be able to shoot you properly if he cant see you and vice versa? wouldnt there be more of an innacurate firefight if both cant see each other?

By the way dont hesitate to buy this game, the single player will take you a while anyway while all the bugs gets sorted out and the editor is amazing. It will take you awhile just to get use to commanding your troops buttons dont expect to have all your graphics on high either its still enjoyable on medium graphics. Regardless of all this stuff this game is really REALLY good. And as far as reality goes. I dont think you would really be sitting or lying down in grass in real life to hide from someone(you wouldnt even be in that position in the first place. You would find a tree or a wall anyway or a building. No way would you be just lying down next to your enemy,lol think about that for a second. Look at bastogne in World war 2. They didnt just lie down in grass or snow they dug themselves holes or got behind something or built small walls. They never just lied down in the grass,lol. You would get murdered in real life too having that strategy. your either stationary behind something planning your next attack or defense or running like hell to get to the next cover. UNLESS you miles away from your enemy and you KNOW it there is noway you would be just sitting there lying in grass.

Edited August 6, 2009 by nyran125

[Guest]

The matter of fact is neither Arma or Arma 2 were designed to have grass. You musn't forget they are still the same game engine as operation flashpoint, and unless BIS did alot of work to this engine, grass is never going to be implimented correctly.

Even if the AI was perfect with grass, what about the ground where the grass is out of view distance? It is simply a visual feature. I think we need a much different aproach to grass if we are going to see improvements, with both ai and general gameplay.

[novafluxx 10]

This is why I turn terrain detail to "Very Low." So I avoid the handicap

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The massive problem with turning off grass is that you turn down the landscape smoothing. Meaning you can see guys hiding 'behind' landscape, but you can't actually hit them. Guys walking on the rigdeline will appear to float above the whole landscape.

I like the grass idea as it presents some real life difficulties. But sometimes I'm just annoyed with how well AI spots me through it when I can't see anything. Then I just wants to turn it off. But the smoothing issue prevents me... Arrgghhh... Why can't grass on or off have a separate control? :(

[Thunderbird 0]

Blocking the AI view with the grass is technically possible, waiting for BIS MLODs to give it a little go.

However, I'm still wondering why didn't BIS pay more attention to this aspect.

Regards,

TB

[Crni-Vuk 10]

Blocking the AI view with the grass is technically possible, waiting for BIS MLODs to give it a little go.

However, I'm still wondering why didn't BIS pay more attention to this aspect.

Regards,

TB

very good question indeed considering how important the AI for multiplayer seems (Coop missions).

[nkenny 1057]

Definitely. Come to think of it on all other issues BIS has practically a perfect track record for fixing previous bugs/errors.

Sarcasm end.

-K