russian vs georgian infantry battle

[Gargantou 0]

The Georgian's should of never started a war they could'nt win.

So you believe might makes right?

It's funny with Russians trying to pretend they're some sorta "Saviours" or "Democratic protectors", anyone recall what happened when Ichkeria tried to gain independence from Russia?:rolleyes:

Oh that's right, Russia ****ed'em hard.

And besides, during the first Chechen War, you got pretty owned considering the amount of manpower and military hardware you poured into Chechnya, and still they managed to put up a decently organized resistance etc.

If anything, Georgia had just as much rights to do what they did with South Ossetia as Russia had with what Russia did to Chechnya.

Also, I always find it weird to see real combat videos, I'm so desenzitized to armed conflicts so, from all the games I've played etc.. When I see real vids, it still feels like a game to me you know? It's so strange to think it's real, real people that might or might not have died during the actual conflict.

[ffs 10]

you got pretty owned

Who? New Zealand?

haha j/k

[=Spetsnaz= 0]

So you believe might makes right?

It's funny with Russians trying to pretend they're some sorta "Saviours" or "Democratic protectors", anyone recall what happened when Ichkeria tried to gain independence from Russia?:rolleyes:

Oh that's right, Russia ****ed'em hard.

And besides, during the first Chechen War, you got pretty owned considering the amount of manpower and military hardware you poured into Chechnya, and still they managed to put up a decently organized resistance etc.

If anything, Georgia had just as much rights to do what they did with South Ossetia as Russia had with what Russia did to Chechnya.

Also, I always find it weird to see real combat videos, I'm so desenzitized to armed conflicts so, from all the games I've played etc.. When I see real vids, it still feels like a game to me you know? It's so strange to think it's real, real people that might or might not have died during the actual conflict.

You are a complete idiot, i never stated it was to do with might but georgia shouldn't of started a war they could'nt win from the beginning, which instead would just cause themselves devastation which was the exact result. You really need to read more about politics and do more research on the conflict and past conflicts.

Georgia attacked South Ossetia which is not part of it at all, the South Ossetian's never want and never wanted to be part of Georgia, During the 1991-1992 Georgian-Ossetian War there was a ceasefire signed meaning Georgia have no right to invade the area, they lost, which is why we had peacekeepers stationed there.

The Georgian's started the war by bombarding and artillerying one of the towns on the border and killed many civilians close to 500 i assume , mostly citizens who carried Russian Citizenship and Passports,also 18 Russian peacekeeping soldiers were killed. Do you think we would just let the Georgians attack and kill our own citizens and stand there and do nothing about it? We had to backfire. I think the US would of done the same if its own citizens were killed by another country who was on aggression.

The Georgian Government expected back up from US, but they were just dumb enough to think like that.

Chechenya on the other hand has been part of the Russian Federation for many years, its a province like any other province in Russia, only a certain number of Chechen's wanted to create their own nation and that was not very many. Most people were happy living under our country already, the rebels/terroists had intimidated their own population killing children,women and the old, they wanted to gain their own independence but by starting a war and threatening to cause harm to others would get them no where, we had to control it.

We gave in to their demands and they wanted more and more to the point where war was inevitable, giving them independence will create and arise a number of problems, if they became a new country, nearby provinces will demand independence and may even cause further wars, and the country will run unstable.

So far the city of Grozny is still being rebuilt today, you think the Chechen's themselves would be happy to live under the occupation of Chechen Extremist Rebels? How would they be able to create a stable government themselves, how would they be able to start providing their population with food and jobs and such,they harmed their own civlians..., so stop sterotyping Russia as being bad and evil. You don't know anything so i guess its pointless for me to argue with you.

I hate communism and i don't support it, i am a pro democratic myself. Russia's government and policies have changed, and its changing for the better, also having concern's of conflicts and the life's of its own citizens. So quit blabbing about what you think about Russian's, cause you simply have no evidence to backup your arguement. Yes you can say what you want about how you think we are some sort of non-saviour's, that is your opinion. Our country did what was right and did it, and i bet US would of done the same.

Also about the First Chechen War, We didn't lose the war because there was a cease fire! please do some research!!. look at US and NATO, they sent troops to Afghanistan, and there's much fewer numbers of the Taliban compared to them. Of course any country is going to need to send tons of troops to make sure everything is under control, its the way of making sure there is some sort of security being insured upon the region.

I advise you to actually educate yourself properly before you start throwing false assumptions, Yes we had the same problems as the Americans in Iraq, that does not mean we have lost, most of the main Chechen terroist ringleaders have been executed,killed or assasinated. The Chechen republic has its own state government with its own president, and now has its own military with its own flag, the province is controlled by the State Government. But its still part of our country.

---------- Post added at 05:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 AM ----------

Who? New Zealand?

haha j/k

i live in New Zealand mate lol

[jakerod 254]

It finally happened. Yeah for Political Debates outside the area where they are supposed to be done!!!

[=Spetsnaz= 0]

It finally happened. Yeah for Political Debates outside the area where they are supposed to be done!!!

I guess i got kinda carried away, with a topic with this i think anyone was bound to say something. Ill keep on topic.

But you probably will understand when your trying to explain and prove someone else wrong who has the opposite opinions than you.

[nomdeplume 0]

Also, I always find it weird to see real combat videos, I'm so desensitized to armed conflicts so, from all the games I've played etc.. When I see real vids, it still feels like a game to me you know? It's so strange to think it's real, real people that might or might not have died during the actual conflict.

This is interesting to me, as I'm the opposite. I've played various violent games all my life, both realistic and not so, and any videos of real conflicts are always quite shocking to me. Even things like videos from aircraft gun cameras, which look pretty gamey to me since I play flight sims a fair bit -- I'm still acutely aware that those are real people down there, and when the dust cloud rises up around them I have that unpleasant feeling that arises when you see how easily and quickly human lives can be ended.

Well, "easily" is a bit relative; those aircraft aren't exactly easy to make, maintain, or operate...

[Gargantou 0]

Well, there was this one video from a US gunship in Afghanistan that gave me a very uncanny feeling, because you could hear the gunner and pilot talking and laughing as they killed the people, including laughing after one of the terrorists lay down on the ground with heads and arms stretched out(like he surrender), they wait like 3 seconds, then shoot him anyway, and laugh.

Shit like that scares me, because it actually makes a mockery of human lives.

Also, lots of love to the crazy Russian getting so worked up after I 'attacked' his nation!

Reminds me of an Irish patriot I encountered a while back, I told him I thought IRA bombings of civilians etc was wrong, and he got soooo mad. Mad irishmen sound extremely funny.

End of story: Russia isn't a properly democratized nation like say Schweiz, no matter how much they try to make foreigners believe otherwise.

[RedRage 0]

Well, there was this one video from a US gunship in Afghanistan that gave me a very uncanny feeling, because you could hear the gunner and pilot talking and laughing as they killed the people, including laughing after one of the terrorists lay down on the ground with heads and arms stretched out(like he surrender), they wait like 3 seconds, then shoot him anyway, and laugh.

Shit like that scares me, because it actually makes a mockery of human lives.

Also, lots of love to the crazy Russian getting so worked up after I 'attacked' his nation!

Reminds me of an Irish patriot I encountered a while back, I told him I thought IRA bombings of civilians etc was wrong, and he got soooo mad. Mad irishmen sound extremely funny.

End of story: Russia isn't a properly democratized nation like say Schweiz, no matter how much they try to make foreigners believe otherwise.

1) Terrorists are not people.

2) It takes time to become a mature democracy. US was a deeply racist, class devided society not so long ago... Comparing Russia to what i assume is supposed to be Switzerland, is beyond moronic. Russia is a very large, very multi-ethnic country, it'll never be a nice clean democracy in a Western European sense. It's simply to large and too many compromises have to be made.

Btw, if you mention that Chechnya was wrong to a Russian, or compare the actions to terrorist scum like IRA, you might lose a couple of front teeth (without "getting mad" theatrics). You won't think it's funny, but you'll have a killer smile for later :D Just an FYI...

[Gargantou 0]

Terrorists are people, heck what is or isn't terrorists varies from nation to nation, one nations "Freedom fighters" is another nations "terrorists".

Besides, over here terrorism is per definition someone who intentionally targets civilians for political purposes, including during war time.

During the Korean War, the US and SK military shelled Korean refugees that were fleeing southwards, because of fear that there might be communist spies among'em. So, was the US army terrorist then? They intentionally choose that a large group of civilians was worthy of death in order to prevent a possible spy from reaching them.

Let's not forget during the Soviet-Afghan war, where the Soviets were supporting the communist afghan government against the talibans and mujahedeens, then the US choose to aid them, since their enemy was the 'victim', and not themselves.

Also I'm not sure I would call US for a mature democracy, it's closer to a corporatocracy, at least in comparison with many other western democracies in my opinion.

Personally I think strong and firm leaders like Putin are necessary to keep Russia together, without'em it would probably lead to a lot more ethnic tensions and violence.

I was just hoping to get some angry reaction out of him for funzies.

[Second 0]

Well, there was this one video from a US gunship in Afghanistan that gave me a very uncanny feeling, because you could hear the gunner and pilot talking and laughing as they killed the people, including laughing after one of the terrorists lay down on the ground with heads and arms stretched out(like he surrender), they wait like 3 seconds, then shoot him anyway, and laugh.

Harshest i've seen was where certain guys cut certain person's throat in certain war. Camera recording from 1 meter how helpless victim looked at blade closing him and then blade sunk into his throat and cut it open. They kept recording how he died. Probably choked into his own blood. Sounds like bad movie, but it wasn't.

Horrible video full of other horrors of war, but that was worst.

[Gargantou 0]

I guess the thing that creeps me out about chopper videos etc is how incredibly easy and detached the person is from the actual killing.

If you slit a throat, it takes a lot more mental 'strength' I believe, than it does to say just use say a bunch of bombs to blow up a few hundred people.

I just think from my own perspective, it'd be far less tormenting for me to say shoot a guy from 200 meters using a sniper rifle, than it would be to actually slit his throat, feel him struggling against me, hear him gurgle etc..

[Second 0]

I guess the thing that creeps me out about chopper videos etc is how incredibly easy and detached the person is from the actual killing.

That is true.

[TangoRomeo 10]

I just think from my own perspective, it'd be far less tormenting for me to say shoot a guy from 200 meters using a sniper rifle ...

I believe that if someone gets exposed to all this sh*t for prolongued periods, that person will either become numb or indifferent to killing another human being, or actually come to like it. Eventually it will catch up later, when there's enough time to reflect on this.

[max power 21]

Apparently it's easier to kill in the moment if you have technological and physical distance between you and the person you're killing. The more distance you have between you and the other person, and the more machines in between, the easier it is, according to Dave Grossman. There is seemingly an inbuilt psychological mechanism in humans to make it difficult to kill people. There are many ways to sidestep this, but it's only easy for people with psychopathic personalities, or people with psychopathic beliefs. Beliefs such as 'terrorists aren't humans' will help you in the aftermath of a murder, as will the fact you didn't actually see a person, just a heat signature. Dehumanizing the people you mean to kill is a means of augmenting your conscience and gives you a psychological escape route. Executing people in horrible and personal ways doesn't require more mental strength, it requires a complex social arrangement where the person respects the source of his orders, has responsibility to his peers, etc. Not being haunted by it afterwards requires brainwashing or less attachment to people i.e. an antisocial personality.

You were disturbed by the throat slitting and you weren't even there. You saw it on a computer screen after the fact, giving you technological, physical, and temporal distance, and it seemingly made an impression lasting negative impression on you. I wonder how the person who did it feels. Likely he's done a lot of mental acrobatics to justify the act, or he was insulated from it from the get go by training and propaganda.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Max Power

[Shadow NX 1]

i play games since the NES came out and played lots of shooters and other brutal games most of them when i wasnt even 18 because there always is a way to get thiss tuff for a kid.

Yet im still extremely easy shocked with gruesome pics or videos and cant watch that.

Last days for example i scolled trough a gallery from Chechnya mid 90s and in between some good pics was one of a Mot.inf soldier in vsr and classic green flak vest which all looked clean but his head was just a clean skull without any flesh left.

That gave me a bad feeling in the stomach for the next 2 hours...

So much for the idea that games make people more violent.... for me its rather the opposite.

[jakerod 254]

i play games since the NES came out and played lots of shooters and other brutal games most of them when i wasnt even 18 because there always is a way to get thiss tuff for a kid.

Yet im still extremely easy shocked with gruesome pics or videos and cant watch that.

Last days for example i scolled trough a gallery from Chechnya mid 90s and in between some good pics was one of a Mot.inf soldier in vsr and classic green flak vest which all looked clean but his head was just a clean skull without any flesh left.

That gave me a bad feeling in the stomach for the next 2 hours...

So much for the idea that games make people more violent.... for me its rather the opposite.

I'm pretty much the same way. I was actually hesitant to watch the video that was posted earlier in the thread even though I know no one died in it. I think it was more of the fact that the bullets their firing might be killing people on the other end and I don't find that amusing to watch. Yet at the same time, every game I play is violent. Even the racing games that I play are more about destroying your opponent than anything else.

Hm... I had something else I wanted to say but now I can't remember.

[=Spetsnaz= 0]

Terrorists are people, heck what is or isn't terrorists varies from nation to nation, one nations "Freedom fighters" is another nations "terrorists".

Besides, over here terrorism is per definition someone who intentionally targets civilians for political purposes, including during war time.

During the Korean War, the US and SK military shelled Korean refugees that were fleeing southwards, because of fear that there might be communist spies among'em. So, was the US army terrorist then? They intentionally choose that a large group of civilians was worthy of death in order to prevent a possible spy from reaching them.

Let's not forget during the Soviet-Afghan war, where the Soviets were supporting the communist afghan government against the talibans and mujahedeens, then the US choose to aid them, since their enemy was the 'victim', and not themselves.

Also I'm not sure I would call US for a mature democracy, it's closer to a corporatocracy, at least in comparison with many other western democracies in my opinion.

Personally I think strong and firm leaders like Putin are necessary to keep Russia together, without'em it would probably lead to a lot more ethnic tensions and violence.

I was just hoping to get some angry reaction out of him for funzies.

Yes and it just shows how a complete moron you are :). I was'nt angry i was defending my opinion :)

Well i agree with you on keeping Putin, anyhow you coming with the wrong assumptions, i was not stating Chechens in general as Terrorists, i was stating that the Chechen Terrorists themselves were causing it. Heard of Moscow Siege? Beslan School Shooting? those were committed by the Chechen Rebels/Terrorists.

Soviet Intervention in Afghanistan was a proxy war, we fought against a group of army of rebels who didn't support the pro communist afghanistan government, we did lose, the vietnam war was a proxy war so was the korean war, There was no such thing as terrorists back there. American's did the same thing in Vietnam and Korea.

And also as you were saying, yes i am patriotic :), there is nothing wrong with being patroitic is there? what about the american republicians over iraq and afghanistan? what about the finns who are so patriotic about the winter war. If you hate me being patroitic so be it, i bet if i was saying something bad about your country or your ethnicity/nationality which was'nt true you would feel offended. I suppose you are a hypocrite? No?

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 PM ----------

I'm pretty much the same way. I was actually hesitant to watch the video that was posted earlier in the thread even though I know no one died in it. I think it was more of the fact that the bullets their firing might be killing people on the other end and I don't find that amusing to watch. Yet at the same time, every game I play is violent. Even the racing games that I play are more about destroying your opponent than anything else.

Hm... I had something else I wanted to say but now I can't remember.

You can always easily tell the difference between violent video games and the real world and media. Ive seen a couple of gruesome videos and pictures and i very much regret seeing them and watching them, it pretty much scarred me for life :/. Curiosity hits you and you ponder. Ive seen pictures and videos of real beheading's and i assure you that was very horrible and chilling. Upon watching one of the chechclear videos i was horrified how the victim begged for mercy and how he suffered,it made me angry and depressed, for me its very hard to believe such reality happens and that 1/1,000,000,000 experience such a thing in the world and to understand the psycological aspect of how some people enjoy committing these acts or can commit them without having any affects on them.

I know when playing violent videos games i don't notice anything, but seeing the real violence it scares me.. , i think that the soldiers who experience this in real life get scarred for life, they can never forget the horrible reality they experienced and saw. Violent Videos/Images can show you this over the internet and you get scarred.

I really would urge everyone to not watch or look up the images of such things..im still getting these pictures in my head and its hard not to forget.

[chops 111]

I really would urge everyone to not watch or look up the images of such things..im still getting these pictures in my head and its hard not to forget.

I saw that throat-cutting video referred to a few pages back in this thread. It was a horrific image that has stayed with me ever since. It really troubled me for several days. I can't understand how one human being could do that to another.

I friend of mine fought in the Bosnian war and has told me about horrible things he saw both sides do.

It's this brutal and savage reality that the politicians who declare the wars are never subjected to.

Anyway, here's a link to a report from Dateline on SBS, an Australian news programme. It's about the situation in Abkhazia.

From what I understand of the situation, Georgia has tried to cozy up to the West (who are in turn looking to establish a presence in the former USSR). Then Georgia launched a brutal artillery attack on a civilian centre and when Russia responds, Shakashvili starts bleating about the protection of democracy.

Were I in charge of the whole world - Georgia minus 100 points for indiscriminate shelling of a city and claiming to be fighting for democracy when you get your arse kicked. Russia, minus 20 points for hanging around a bit too long inside Georgia. Should have stayed within South Ossetia.

[Baff1 0]

I saw that throat-cutting video referred to a few pages back in this thread. It was a horrific image that has stayed with me ever since. It really troubled me for several days. I can't understand how one human being could do that to another.

I friend of mine fought in the Bosnian war and has told me about horrible things he saw both sides do.

It's this brutal and savage reality that the politicians who declare the wars are never subjected to.

Anyway, here's a link to a report from Dateline on SBS, an Australian news programme. It's about the situation in Abkhazia.

From what I understand of the situation, Georgia has tried to cozy up to the West (who are in turn looking to establish a presence in the former USSR). Then Georgia launched a brutal artillery attack on a civilian centre and when Russia responds, Shakashvili starts bleating about the protection of democracy.

Were I in charge of the whole world - Georgia minus 100 points for indiscriminate shelling of a city and claiming to be fighting for democracy when you get your arse kicked. Russia, minus 20 points for hanging around a bit too long inside Georgia. Should have stayed within South Ossetia.

I saw that video too.

I had the same issues.

With regards to Russia going into Georgia, they had too. Artillery was firing from the otherside of the border, and once the Georgian army was in full flight they had abandoned all their weapons wich needed to be secured before they were looted and and fell into militia hands like the Iraqi armies weapon stash did. Russia plus 50 points for neatly preventing years of insurgency.

War doesn't stop at the line on a map, it stops where the fighting stops and the paper borders are not as important as which is militarily defensable.

Sakashvili got elected on the promise of invading South Ossetia in contravention of their peace accord. It's perfectly democratic. His country all voted for it.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Baff1

[TangoRomeo 10]

Manufacturing a crisis. Afaik S.'s own staff adviced him against invading S.O.. 4 hours later he ordered the attack. In the meantime he only was in contact with VP Cheney`s aides. As far as i´m concerned the incident served nothing but to provoke the russian bear, until, clumsy as he is, he would trample and violate international law. S. Palin in an ABC interview:

fQatAMpa9R8

Nuts.