Does camouflage actually work against the AI?

[koroush47 10]

Hmm the second is not really the short answer of the first... I'd like to see some tests though that show the existance of such a detection value and the effect camouflage has on it.

then go ahead and run those tests.

[ebud 18]

I remember seeing a camuflage value in the config. e.g. spec ops units were harder to spot in ArmA. Right? Cause it was

Ppl just need to stop complaining about the AI being too accurate, seeing through the foliage, knowing exactly where the player is from 1000 m. It's just bs and bunch of myths. Just learn to be more carefull and play less BF-ish. The camuflage value is there, so what. It doesn't mean that when playing as a sniper you're invisible, or 50% less visible.

Like some of you I've also been dealing with this engine for a looooong time, (what, 8+ years now?) and spent hundreds and hundreds of hours testing sight, sound and camo values in configs, I've made hundreds upon hundreds of view geos for foliage for both ARMA, VBS, OFP and let me tell you that it sucks because once you think you know how it all works together you see the AI do something that blows holes in whatever theory you're working on. I know how it all works together if not the exact formuals and some things just don't always work the way you think it should. It's not always a bug, but just the AI being AI and not having a persons shortcomings. I remember editing the hearing values of units vs the sound units make so that you could try and keep the AI from knowing about you when you were in a field of elephant grass, once it worked and seemed realistic it totally screwed up the AI in other situations. Unless a game is scripted you just cannot guarantee anything will happen the way you think it should every single time.

<edit> but I agree the AI can spot a needle in haystack 9 out of ten times. Last night I just peeked over a hill in the first single player mission and an apc a 1/4 mile away hit me JUST as I peeked over. A real person wouldn't have seen me, especially on the move in a vehicle even with optics.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Ebud

[galzohar 31]

Realism-wise, with optics he should see you, but with the size of his FOV when using optics he needs a lot of luck to have you in his FOV right at the same time you peaked out.

[ebud 18]

Realism-wise, with optics he should see you, but with the size of his FOV when using optics he needs a lot of luck to have you in his FOV right at the same time you peaked out.

I know with optics he would see me if looking right at me, I'm dumb, but not stupid :) The fact is that an apc a 1/4 mile away driving at maybe 40 mph over if I remember right, rough terrain spotted the top part of my head within 2 seconds of my peeking over a rise in the terrain through grass and other foliage. I don't see how in RL out of the entire line of site over the entire area he just spotted me with luck. Now I still call BS on this one. Maybe it was a one time thing, but I've seen this happen for years in this engine so it's nothing new or shocking. Just more wood for the fire.

[rowdied 44]

I know with optics he would see me if looking right at me, I'm dumb, but not stupid :) The fact is that an apc a 1/4 mile away driving at maybe 40 mph over if I remember right, rough terrain spotted the top part of my head within 2 seconds of my peeking over a rise in the terrain through grass and other foliage. I don't see how in RL out of the entire line of site over the entire area he just spotted me with luck. Now I still call BS on this one. Maybe it was a one time thing, but I've seen this happen for years in this engine so it's nothing new or shocking. Just more wood for the fire.

Just curious, what settings were you using and what skill level were the A.I.?

When I 've toned done their skill to less than 30, I find they act more human and I can get away with more than if their skill is set high.

Also, was there more than just the apc or were there other A.I. running around that could've spotted you and relayed your position?

[ebud 18]

Just curious, what settings were you using and what skill level were the A.I.?

When I 've toned done their skill to less than 30, I find they act more human and I can get away with more than if their skill is set high.

Also, was there more than just the apc or were there other A.I. running around that could've spotted you and relayed your position?

Sorry I didn't elaborate. It was the first single player mission. I was playing on regular difficulty with no other skill or realism edits other than default. The town was cleared and I had just crawled near some trees/bushes to see where the APC was, there were no AI left to report me, the AI should not have seen me at all or even known or guessed exactly where I would be yet he spotted me and killed me in less than 2 seconds after I poked me head over a rise. There was grass and bushes that "should" have hidden me, but again this is nothing new, just still annoying after all these years when it happens. Before that though... the firefights were the some of the best I've ever had in a game in years. Long and drawn out, slow methodical and utterly confusing. Really fun.

[galzohar 31]

Yes, of course they cheat, what I'm saying though is that he shouldn't be unable to see you within 2 seconds, but rather he should be unlikely to see you within few seconds. They really need to have AI actually simulate some kind of "scanning", make their ability to find you bound to FOV and magnification in some way.

[mr.g-c 6]

The honest answer at this time is that NOTHING works "against" the AI currently.

They can spot you even at insane distances and way worse, they do spot you behind everything, no matter if hills, trees, houses, vehicles, whatever - they are simply cheating!

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Programmed cheats like in certain other games, and programming bugs are two significantly different things. If they reveal from behind objects (ground, mission vehicles, or island placed objects) at good distance, the system is obviously bugged. Just like it was with Arma1.

Modders/BIS: Is it possible in the configs to reduce spotting/reveal ability with speed? Would have to be different for different kinds of units and vehicles though.

[dmarkwick 261]

What you need is... JTD_Hide :D

Coming soon to ArmA2.

[acadiancrusader 0]

What you need is... JTD_Hide :D

Coming soon to ArmA2.

i fully support this!

[whisper 0]

The honest answer at this time is that NOTHING works "against" the AI currently.

They can spot you even at insane distances and way worse, they do spot you behind everything, no matter if hills, trees, houses, vehicles, whatever - they are simply cheating!

It's not true, even though I've seen strange things (like you do, ie markers appearing for no reason on map), I also tested a bunch and I clearly can't agree with you on this one

[MBot 0]

The honest answer at this time is that NOTHING works "against" the AI currently.

They can spot you even at insane distances and way worse, they do spot you behind everything, no matter if hills, trees, houses, vehicles, whatever - they are simply cheating!

I can’t confirm (or deny) everything but I also had my AI team call out targets far ahead when we were actually advancing up a hill with no view over the hilltop (perhaps 20m ahead).

[whisper 0]

Concur, and I think it's related to the capacity of the AI to spot fast at range on standing up targets. At the slightest cue of a target (standing) at like 600m, they'll report and you'll get contacts on map.

Making it worse, there's something iffy about how AI handles target they already have spotted before, they'll jump on any hint of presence and re-detect even faster than the previous detection and for whatever stance you are in.

That said, spotting through any object and terrain, I can't agree

[mr.g-c 6]

@whisper, It is really happening, i saw it numerous times and the german press (all of them!) also saw it and negative rate it.

At best you can see it if you are a normal member of a AI group and suddenly the squadleader gives you order to attack a man behind a hill....and to top this, sometime your AI-Comrades really then open fire on that direction but instead of hitting this mysterious guy behind the hill, they of course only hit the hill itself.

Similar it was already happening in Arma1!

The community guy who wanted to disprove it with his YT-Video and weird teleporting behavior is not proving or disproving anything.

You must be a member of AI group to fully see the cheating potential.

But this is only one of the countless AI bugs. Another one is when you open fire on them from back as a hidden Sniüer and they immediately turn around, spot you and attack you - just like in Arma1.

If this is realism, then the US Army/Marines should scre wtheir contracts with counter-sniper devices currently ordered and actively deployed.:rolleyes:

Now do you think all of us are some stupid guys without any idea of the game or AI and we are just talking bullshit? It is very unlikely!:p

It is happening, i tested it for hours and its a fact, sadly.:rolleyes:

Only hope i have is a improvement with further patches on this issue!

As long as the game is not released everywhere around the world, i have strong hopes that it will be fixed, simply to save BIS from another rating-debacles like here in germany.

After that point however, i think it will be just happen like with Arma1, some nice things here and there, but AI-Bugs and such were never fixed/improved in Arma1, despite the countless bug-reports in the old Mantis bugtracker. I think it is simply to much work to fix/work with AI.....:(

[whisper 0]

The community guy who wanted to disprove it with his YT-Video and weird teleporting behavior is not proving or disproving anything.

You must be a member of AI group to fully see the cheating potential.

Download his mission and check by yourself, you can put yourself inside AI squad and see their precise knowledge of your position.

At least, he is giving his modus operandi and we can reproduce what he told us

[KeyCat 131]

It is happening, i tested it for hours and its a fact, sadly.:rolleyes:

@mr.g.c: Maybe I just missed it but could you let us know what settings you use when testing (both in XXXXX.ArmAProfile and in editor)? What happens if you tone down various settings?

After that point however, i think it will be just happen like with Arma1, some nice things here and there, but AI-Bugs and such were never fixed/improved in Arma1, despite the countless bug-reports in the old Mantis bugtracker. I think it is simply to much work to fix/work with AI.....:(

OK, I'm not here to "defend" BIS since I'm sure they are capable to do that by themself if need be but what you state above is IMO untrue and pretty unfair! Pointing out bugs/issues/flaws is a good thing but trashing BIS with pure lies and BS doesn't help anybody, on the contrary!

BIS did indeed fix numerous AI related bugs/issues/flaws in ArmA 1.00 -> 1.14 and they still plan a final patch for it...

/KC

Edited June 11, 2009 by KeyCat