Keep Weapon's After Swimming

[hoak 0]

Both sides of this discussion have veracity; it's true a Marine will virtually never seperate himself from his rifle if he anticipates using it again (which is anytime he's still breathing), and it is also true you do have to be willing to ditch your gear as part of water survival.

Where this falls down, is ArmA has some rather short water crossings where you loose virtually everything, that real Marines could complete and loose nothing. There's a big difference between a tactically planned water crossing, and jumping out of a burning boat far from any visible shoreline...

Though I doubt there's time at this point to change anything; I agree BI should revist this aspect of the game's design and look at what's really happening. Though they probably can't implement realistic water crossing technique, they could compensate for it to some extent by adjusting the weapon drop time constants to make short crossings, and short tactical beach approachs more realistic (where you don't want to bring your boat in for stealth)... Real Marines do the latter quite a lot, and with a full load on, and keep it all...

:)

Edited May 20, 2009 by Hoak

[wipman 1]

Hi, the only way to keep all your gear, backpack included is to disembarq at a point where

you have deep enough as for touch the end and put your body under the water level if you

are under fire while you walk by the end; at 100m or more from the shore, you've to carry

a closed impermeable bag with your gear, but that in the IDM is something that you'll only

see in your dreams, that's why they teach us to release and drop our vest but keep the

weapon attached with the sling. If you dropped your rifle you had 14 days of arrest, seven

for leak of respect to the Armada and other seven for leak of respect to a supperior official.

Extensible to 21 (seven more for leak of attention to the exercise on course), so you'll

never drop your weapon. BIS should add this feature, is not a matter of the distance, is

a matter of the weight of the gear and ammo for keep your gear off the water. Let's C ya

[S!fkaIaC 10]

if you seen the Full Metal Jacket there they say it clearly: "Without me, my riffle

don't serves; without my riffle neither i serve".

Well, you should not take your knowledge from Cinema/TV.

And you should not take over the way of writing rifle "riffle" as you obviously copied from some BIS code. :D

[celery 8]

Well, you should not take your knowledge from Cinema/TV.

It's actually very true. Without a weapon a soldier is pretty much useless in a fight. A soldier is a moving platform for his weapon for most effects and purposes of combat.

[sidhellfire 0]

Drowned soldier isn't more useful either.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Drowned soldier isn't more useful either.

True, but you could swim (At least for quite a while) with just a rifle and its magazine if you dropped everything else. How much does the avarage rifle with magazine weigh? 3~5kg? You can swim with that.

[ProfTournesol 956]

According to _cappa's reporting today's twitter :

Q: A question about swimming ? Still loose equipment when swimming ?

A: Yes lose heavy equipment

[Jex =TE= 0]

Water crossings by river are done by linking your bags together to form an inflatable platform on which to rest your rifles on. I tried to find a picture to exemplify this but could only find this which does a pretty good job

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D2B6AEAF-83AD-4C13-856E-C2E0FB428FDA/0/CambrianPatrol1.JPG

It certainly needs time to prepare it but river crossing are possible though dangerous.

[sidhellfire 0]

True, but you could swim (At least for quite a while) with just a rifle and its magazine if you dropped everything else. How much does the avarage rifle with magazine weigh? 3~5kg? You can swim with that.

You really think it is possible? It really makes swimming harder while holding anything in hand. Yes, you would probably easly swim up to the shore with a 4kg rifle, but not with heavy boots on, vests etc. I've once landed in the water with clothes on - you cannot use stuff in hands like an oar, you need to put a massive amount of energy to maintain water level.

[celery 8]

There is a thing called sling that attaches your rifle to your body. It might not be obvious in OFP or Armed Assault though.

[sidhellfire 0]

LOL. So you have no experience with water or slings at all.

[NeMeSiS 11]

LOL. So you have no experience with water or slings at all.

Or maybe you are a bad swimmer, i had no trouble swimming with baggy/ovesized clothing and hiking boots and i can easily take a few kg to the other side of a river. :confused:

[5133p39 14]

There is a big difference between swimming in a river, swimming in sea or in ocean.

The efectivity of the swimmer also depends on the direction and power of currents, ebb, and weather conditions.

I dont suppose we could get such high degree of simulation from ArmA2 to implement all these variables, but i can imagine some ways around this.

Idea #1 - Three different swimming phases:

1. Tread water

You won't move, but you should be able to do this for a long time before you start loosing your equipment (waiting for a boat?).

2. Doggy style swimming

Slow, but allows for keeping your equipment for longer time.

3. Fast swimming (breast stroke? dont know the correct term)

Faster, but you would loose any heavy equipment (but you would still keep the rifle and one/two mags or more?)

Idea #2 - Different waters with different conditions:

1. River

It should be possible to cross without loosing anything.

I know maybe a wide river with very strong current would be impossible to cross without loosing equipment (or to cross at all), but since i doubt ArmA2 will be simulating currents, i think the rivers in ArmA2 should be equipment-lossless to simplify things.

2. Sea/Ocean

Like in the current ArmA1 implementation (maybe with some tweaking for more gradual loosing of the gear, but including the rifle - ocean is a bitch :) ).

Idea #3 - After some time in water, choose what to loose:

This would need the game to have a weight parameter for all gear items.

After some time in water, the game would popup a dialog stating that the unit must drop N kg of equipment weight, and player would have to choose which equipment to drop (do you need a satchel charge to fulfill the mission goal, ok, then drop that mine instead), if the player wouldn't choose anything until reaching some timelimit (10s ?), the game would choose (randomly?) and drop some equipment automatically.

For example:

- after first 3 minutes in water, you would have to drop 2 kg.

- after another 2 minutes, you would have to drop 5 kg.

- after another 1.5 minutes, another 5 kg.

- etc.

The popup dialog doesn't need to be a dialog (like the "gear" dialog window), in fact some kind of unobtrusive "hint" in a corner of the screen could be better.

This would work for both players and AI.

Maybe a possibility for mission designer to mark some of the unit's equipment or slots as "non-dropable" could be handy.

[max power 21]

Treading water is actually more difficult than swimming.

[That guy 10]

Many of you seem to be overlooking the fact that water is a MAJOR obstacle on the battlefield. You avoid water when ever possible. especially with a 20kg IBA

In the US army you value your life over your weapon. A weapon is important, but it can be easly replaced. You (the soldier) are not.

However, I am sure the supply sergeant is likely to disagree :D

[wipman 1]

Hi, yeah, im sure that the man in the armoury will cruzify you for those words; anyways,

there're some ways to keep some more ammo than the inserted magazine, if you're fast

enough, you could put one or two mags in each leg's side pockets but you'll have to do it

really fast because you begin to sink very fast if you don't have or keep enough floating

surface, like in the moving sands but worst, because you may begin to sink in the 1St second.

I'll be happy enough if in the ArmA2 they make the units keep the main weapon and a

single magazine and the side weapon and it's ammo. Let's C ya

[CrazyD 10]

Glad to see lots of constructive discussion regarding the Issue, As with the Twitter Feed Q-A posted my by a fellow member, It says about losing heavy weapons that's not to bad as long as we can keep lighter weapons like a pistol then I am sure we can salvage weapons on the battlefield. :-)

[S!fkaIaC 10]

Ha! I can also keep my Howitzer while swimming!

Gents! All those claiming that you can cross a 100m river with vest, ammo and rifle are invited to make a swim contest. With weapons.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I'd rather see some SEAL units able to operate in and under water. I think what Arma has now doesn't bother me too much in the missions I play.

[wipman 1]

Hi, the combat divers use to carry different weapons and use different insertion methods

and diving gear than the Marines, they're more like commandos than General Infantry, even

the MEU units are closer to General Infantry in gear and combat/insertion methods than the

SEALs; but at least here, where the Marine Infantry goes... go too the Combat Divers. Let's C ya

[volkov956 0]

my only problem is the ai who decide to use the water as a shortcut to only be useless once they get there

[sic-disaster 311]

Well if it does remain to be in ArmA2 at least remove it so AI wont lose equipment when swimming.

Many is the time i try to make a beachlanding in ArmA and my soldiers decide to go for a swim, losing their main weapon and everything else.

And there is no way to replace it, it just sucks :p

[Maddmatt 1]

Well if it does remain to be in ArmA2 at least remove it so AI wont lose equipment when swimming.

I'd prefer them to improve the way AI deals with water - make them avoid it where possible, and if they end up in water to swim to shore and get out as fast as possible.

Rather do that than remove realistic features just because AI doesn't handle it perfectly.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Maddmatt

[wipman 1]

Hi, if they improve the AI yeltsin pathfinding at the time to cross bridges then the fact that

the AI or you drop the equipment after some time, will become less problematic or deadly;

and much less problematic if you and the AI were able of keep the main and side weapons

with at least one magazine. Let's C ya