ArmA in true Stereo 3D

[madrussian 347]

For those who may not keep up on this sort of thing, there have been major advancements in home Stereo 3D technology lately, both in terms of capability and also cost barrier for regular everyday folks.  To back up a bit further, Stereo 3D (S3D) is when the image actually comes out of and falls back into the screen, as with IMAX 3D movies.  S3D is how we see in real life (unless we've had the misfortune of losing one eye).

Two relatively new products are on the market, the iZ3D 22" and the Zalman 22" stereo 3D monitors.  You do need special light-weight glasses for both, and both use passive polarization (as opposed to shutter technology, which can cause eye strain).  A couple months back I bought a 22" Zalman Trimon 3D monitor for gaming purposes ($700 US at the time).  Once I got everything up and running, my jaw hit the floor.  The effect, in a word is amazing!!!

I also found the claims of zero ghosting on Zalman monitors to be true.  (Ghosting is also called cross-talk and is when one eye can to some degree see the image intended for the other eye... the iZ3D 22" reportedly has a problem there)

Now game compatibility with the Nvidia S3D drivers is an issue (which the Zalman uses, iZ3D has much better support at this time I'm to understand).  Many recent titles have various issues.  However, I found that two of my favorite games work very well in S3D and I was blown away by the effect in Oblivion and Mount and Blade.

ArmA, however, at that time did not work in S3D.  The problem was that although the entire image would pop out of the screen, it was still a 2D image.  At the time I figured you can't win em all, and just continued playing ArmA in 2D mode.

Fast forward to last night.  I was trying out a number of new mods for ArmA and one of them was the one that disables HDR lighting.  (Great performance boost btw! )  At this point I got a bit curious, knowing that post-processing/lighting can sometimes foul up the S3D drivers, and so I tried toggling on S3D again in ArmA.

To my great surprise and happiness, with HDR disabled, stereo 3D works in ArmA!!!

   

And the effect is very good, with next to no issues what-so-ever.  Everything quickly becomes very real in S3D, darting in and out of the trees, bullets and rpg rounds flying out of the screen, grenades and rpgs going off... Mad Matt's effects and ECS volumetric fog are a real treat here, let me tell you!  Most immersive ArmA experience I have ever had!!!

Now there is a small problem, that could turn out to be a big problem.  If you look at the sun, the S3D disables and cannot be turned back on without shutting down the game and restarting.  That of course will kill the experience quickly.  One option is to block out the sun with clouds (not a good long term solution).  But I also think the problem may have something to do with the lens flares themselves.  I intend to disable the lens flares tonight and see if that eliminates the problem. (btw- These types of issues are common in trying to get S3D working on various games, so no big surprise here.)

Anyhow, just curious is anyone else has tried ArmA in stereo 3D, or am I the only crazy one here?

If not, you guys really should check this out.  It truly completely transforms the experience in ArmA!  You really have to see it to believe.

EDIT:

btw- If anyone has any questions about Stereo 3D or anything in my post, please don't be shy.  Not very many folks seem to know anything about S3D at all, and I've got a ton of knowledge in this area (mostly due to interest but also based on all the research I did while I was contemplating shelling out all that $ for one of these 3D monitors).  Plus as you can probably tell, I am very passionate about stereo 3D.  So please, any questions, ask away!

[Mr Sarkey 0]

Hmmm, do you have a video?

[Kirby 2]

You wouldnt be able to see it with just a video? Heh.

[madrussian 347]

ATTENTION - Please see the note at the bottom before viewing any S3D pictures using the method I mention below

Yeah, not really possible to make a video.  (You'd need a 3D capable device to view it anyway.)

To give you a good idea though, check this out:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/

Go to Community -> Gallery

Choose a game you'd like to see in S3D.  COD could stand in as a rough comparison to ArmA in this case.  When you get to the side-by-side pictures that fill up most of your screen, sit way back from your monitor, and allow your eyes to cross and form one individual image.  (This can be a bit tricky.  Keep scooting back if necessary, you'll eventually get the hang of it.)

Now imagine playing ArmA that way!!!

You may note that certain images from certain games do not form completely acceptable 3D images.  Example - In many games the sky does not appear where it should.  With ArmA, however, everything looks great!  (so far that is).

iZ3D has S3D drivers that eliminate most of these problems.  The nVidia S3D drivers are less mature (at present).

I should probably note that I haven't checked out any water in ArmA yet.  Sometimes water (especially if it reflects) can screw up the S3D effect.  Will check out the ArmA water tonight!

edit-

Be sure to look at several S3D images to really get a good idea of what to expect.  Reason being, many of S3D images in that gallery are great but there are some that don't really do S3D justice.  COD 4/30 and 29/30 are pretty good.  As well as many of the Oblivion ones (5/17 is a good one)  Other COD images appear to be before a driver update that fixed a problem where the players gun and arms were in 3D, but everything else was in 2D, so do be aware.

ATTENTION

Please be very carefull viewing stereo 3D pictures in this manner because you can easily strain your eyes looking at these S3D pictures this way.  So take many breaks and don't over do it all at once.

With an actual passive 3D monitor you should get little or no eye strain.  (I get no eye strain what-so-ever on a daily basis using my Zalman 3D.  I did go through a small adjustment period on the first day however.)

[meuhey 6]

woah this monitor is looking sexy!!! I hope arma 2 will use this. Is trackir going to work with this 3d monitor???

[gL33k 0]

Madrussian, Would you recommend a such monitor over 3D googles ?

[madrussian 347]

@Meuhey

My guess is that trackir would work with S3D in ArmA.  I don't have a trackir yet though... otherwise I would check it for you.

@gL33k

By 3D goggles, not sure if you are talking about shutter glasses/CRT combo, or a head mounted display, so here's a bit on both.

Years ago, I had a set of shutter glasses and a professional 22" CRT capable of the 120Hz necessary to deliver stereo 3D.  I had a great time playing some of my favorite games at the time, including Jedi Knight.  When those blaster bolts flew right out of the screen, sometimes I would actually duck down in real life!  The good news is that this option is relatively cheap.  Just have to make sure your CRT can do the desired resolution @ 120Hz.

The bad news about shutter glasses, for me at least, is that they cause a LOT of eye strain.  If you think about it, those shutters are opening and closing 60 times per second for each eye.  Your poor retina (or is it the iris?) is constantly trying to adjust.  After just a few minutes, I always felt like I had glass in my eyes.

Now, shutter glasses have gotten a lot better since then, and you can always substitute projectors for the CRTs, etc, and have a more comfortable shutter glasses setup.  Of course the cost goes up as well.

Imo, the most promising shutter technology available for everyday joes is to get a S3D-Ready DLP TV from Samsung or Mitsubishi, which actually cost less than the average HDTV now-a-days (b/c it's DLP).  There are some disadvantages here too (mainly driver support), and not sure if these work for ArmA, but wouldn't it be fantastic to play ArmA is stereo 3D on your 56" DLP?!?

As far as head mounted displays goes, I haven't done a whole lot of research in this area, mainly because these are expensive for the resolution you get, and last time I checked, even on the high end models, the resolution was really bad.  So I think we may still be a few years off here.

So to answer your question, would I recommend such a monitor over shutter glasses or head mounted display?

The main advantage of these 3D monitors as I see it is that they are a passive solution, and thus very easy on the eyes.  The Zalman has the additional advantage of virtually no ghosting what-so-ever.  Also, because the Zalman uses circular polarization (vs. linear), you can tip your head sideways and not lose the S3D effect.  As mentioned before, the Zalman uses S3D drivers from nVidia, which are a bit lacking compared to the iz3D drivers (though work on them appears to be speeding up).  As far as the iZ3D monitor goes, their customer and driver support is reportedly outstanding.  Their devs are always on their forums, taking reports and fixing up the drivers.  The main disadvantage of both of the these 3D monitors is the relatively high cost.

So it really boils down to how much $ you want to spend on a S3D system.  Haven't done the research on shutter glasses lately, but $50 US for cheap ones sounds about right.  The higher quality ones run in the hundreds.  The iZ3D 22" currently runs $600 US on NewEgg (no idea if you Europeans have NewEgg, they are good in US).  The Zalman runs about $700 US (vender here are more obscure in US, I had good luck with thenerds.net).  After a thorough evaluation of my 3D monitor, I would highly recommend one of these to any hardcore gamer, if they want to spend the cash.  It really adds that much immersion.  Plus it turns out to work in ArmA now!

------

So I checked out S3D water in ArmA...  Works great!  You can really get an appreciation for the waves and you can really tell they are actually modelled in 3D.

That darn sun is really a problem though (see initial post if you are just joining the conversation).  Haven't tried to turn off sun lens flaring yet.  I'm thinking now it simply that when the sun brightens up as you look at it, there is some post-processing effect that kills the S3D driver, and then all goes back to 2D from then on.  I tried maxing out the cloud level, but apparently enough of the sun peeks through to cause the problem.

My workaround for the sun issue right now is to simply set the time to just after the sun is below the horizon, and use a looping script to keep it there.  There's still plenty of light (btw I personally hate night missions).  Primitive, I know, but it works!

So does anyone know how to disable the sun "bloom" effect when you look at it?  (It still gets bright and causes the foul up even in spite of using the HDR Lighting=Off mod.)

btw- Anyone check out any S3D pictures?

Also, you may want to check out the nVidia or iZ3D website if you would like to demo S3D in anaglyph (red/blue).  I hear there is a way to do this, and of course no special monitor required for that.

If anyone tries anaglyph, be sure to report back on whether or not it works for ArmA!

[dmarkwick 261]

Ooh - interesting

One thing I'm particularly interested in, is how it works with TrackIR. I suspect it would work fine, after all it's only an alternative input device, but I bet the immersion ramps up, leaning around corners etc.

How does this system handle the zooming in when you right-mouse-button-hold (or lean forward in TrackIR)?

And, is there a calibration setup? Some of the images in that gallery seen to have too much eye separation and look like models or toys, I'd be interested in having separation control to give a realistic scaling.

Ooh yeah - how does the scopes & ironsights handle?

[madrussian 347]

I really need to get a trackIR just to see how well it would complement the 3D monitor.  I suppose my brain may very well overheat and then melt from the maximum immersion factor!

Zoom works quite well (right click zoom, can't speak for trackIR yet).

There is some calibration required with all S3D, but once you get the hang of it you're very happy to be able to configure, on a game to game basis.  Two main settings.  First is depth.  If depth were set to zero you would have a regular flat 2D image.  Then as you increase depth, the things furthest back in the picture (i.e. horizon) start to drop backward toward the wall behind the monitor.  Then the convergence (or is it separation?).  As you adjust this setting, the closest things in the picture get closer (horizon stays in place), and when you increase this enough, things start to pop out of the front of the monitor.  Including the aforementioned rpg rounds!

Concerning the various views.  3rd person works very well, and that's what got me so excited when I first got ArmA working in S3D.  (I know many of you disable 3rd person, which is understandable for PvP, etc.)

When you go into first person, however, there are some issues.  One of the great things about ArmA in 1st person is that the player sees his body just as it is in the game world, where as many other games replace the player's actual gun and arms with a dedicated alternate 3D (and even sometimes 2D) modeling of them.  I would take the way ArmA accurately does 1st person any day of the week.  Unfortunately though, either this does not translate well to S3D, or I haven't figure out how to set it up correctly.  The problem in that your arms/gun are so close that your eyes cannot combine the two separate images.

The good news though, is that 3D mode can be enabled/disabled, at will, so for now I will try setting it up to toggle S3D off when going into 1st person or ironsights, then toggle back on when returning to 3rd.  The quick way to do this is manually, whenever the switch is made.  However, the better solution will probably be tricky and may require some ArmALib scripting (thinking about all the combinations).

------

Quick update on finding a solution to the sun problem.  Good news, I am thinking again it may actually be the lens flares causing the problem.  Last night, I happened to walk in front of a truck with the lights on and the effect is similar to the sun "bloom" but it did not kill the S3D!

I will attempt ro disable the lens flares tonight and see if that sorts the problem.  The only way I know to do this is by removing the reference to the lens flare texture, like this (got the idea from Flat):

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">class CfgPatches {

class Flatsun {

units[] = {};

weapons[] = {};

requiredVersion = 0.1;

requiredAddons[] = {"CAData"};

};

};

class CfgCoreData {

eyeFlare = "";

};

No idea if this will eliminate the S3D problem with the sun, but I will try it.  Anyone know a better way of removing the lens flare?

Curious, does anyone happen to know anyone else with a stereo 3D monitor?  I really think it's going to start catching on quick.

[dmarkwick 261]

I really need to get a trackIR just to see how well it would complement the 3D monitor. I suppose my brain may very well overheat and then melt from the maximum immersion factor!

That's gotta be worth it though eh?

Quote[/b] ]Zoom works quite well (right click zoom, can't speak for trackIR yet).

I expect the setup remains the same for zoomed-in though? I cannot see how it would be different, unless the 3D is more advanced than I think it is

Quote[/b] ]There is some calibration required with all S3D, but once you get the hang of it you're very happy to be able to configure, on a game to game basis. Two main settings. First is depth. If depth were set to zero you would have a regular flat 2D image. Then as you increase depth, the things furthest back in the picture (i.e. horizon) start to drop backward toward the wall behind the monitor. Then the convergence (or is it separation?). As you adjust this setting, the closest things in the picture get closer (horizon stays in place), and when you increase this enough, things start to pop out of the front of the monitor. Including the aforementioned rpg rounds!

OK that makes sense, depth then convergence. I guess it might be possible to alleviate your 1st person problem by setting the convergence to a very low (or very high) value?

Quote[/b] ]Quick update on finding a solution to the sun problem. Good news, I am thinking again it may actually be the lens flares causing the problem. Last night, I happened to walk in front of a truck with the lights on and the effect is similar to the sun "bloom" but it did not kill the S3D!

Does the problem exist in 1st person? There is no lens flare effect in 1st person, so it might be worth trying that out even if you don't really like 1st person view

Quote[/b] ]Curious, does anyone happen to know anyone else with a stereo 3D monitor? I really think it's going to start catching on quick.

Well I'd need to see it in action AND have a number of my favourites supported before shelling out for one, but as you say it's becoming more affordable. Polarisation method is a good solution too, how does the monitor produce two concurrent images? And, is the monitor comparable in quality to a pretty decent 2D monitor (I use my monitor for graphic design)?

[mrcash2009 0]

I have 3D shutter glasses now for a while but NVIDIA has never supported 3d for new graphics drivers for ages, or am I missing something.

I stopped using 3d glasses becuase nvidia stopped updating 3d driver support ... how have you got this working now with nvidia?

Put it this way, I wont hesitate to get this working in arma Ive always wanted to get back to using 3d ever since ghost recon days which worked superb ... what drivers and links can you supply?

[Mr_Tea 0]

Nvidia recently started to re-add 3d support for their drivers, but only for Vista.

Tested ArmA with red/blue glasses yesterday, and it was very cool.

[dmarkwick 261]

Nvidia recently started to re-add 3d support for their drivers, but only for Vista.

Tested ArmA with red/blue glasses yesterday, and it was very cool.

Can you link me into the red/blue source website please? I have some glasses but I didn't realise there was a red/blue solution.

[andersson 285]

Nvidia recently started to re-add 3d support for their drivers, but only for Vista.

Tested ArmA with red/blue glasses yesterday, and it was very cool.

One more reason for me to convert to vista...

[Mr_Tea 0]

Nvidia recently started to re-add 3d support for their drivers, but only for Vista.

Tested ArmA with red/blue glasses yesterday, and it was very cool.

Can you link me into the red/blue source website please? I have some glasses but I didn't realise there was a red/blue solution.

Search for "3d stereo" on the Nvidia site will lead you to the 3d drivers.

[dmarkwick 261]

Search for "3d stereo" on the Nvidia site will lead you to the 3d drivers.

Bleah, Vista only

Still, thanks for the info

[mrcash2009 0]

Yes, I have Vista ... great!

ummm ... not so great, they don't support shutter glasses (I have edimentional ones) ... pathetic, seeing as NVIDIA stereo supported shutter until they stopped, now they start again and dont support  them   !?  

[andersson 285]

I have a pair of shutterglasses, shit... So what do they support?

[Mr_Tea 0]

They support simple red/blue glasses, or special displays at it seems for now. Maybe there is more to come?

[Kirby 2]

Ahaha, I just realised this wouldn't work for me anyway. Supposedly I have a condition where I cant use both eyes completly together...

None of these 3d things work for me, like the things with the red/green glasses or whatever. Well they do but its rare that it works how its meant to, and everything looks all funny.

Probably why I have such bad depth perception.

And no, my eyes dont look funny :P

[mrcash2009 0]

They support simple red/blue glasses, or special displays at it seems for now. Maybe there is more to come?

I bloody hope so, I guess cheap red blue glasses are a good "reel you in" gimmick (reminds me of free paper ones you get with comics LOL) ... but shutter glasses maybe dont generate much $ compared to forcing over to higher end kit and specialised monitors    

What annoys me is the drivers are nearly the exact same in layout before they stopped updating them, and they have simply removed the option for shutter glasses, where it shows detection and the red/blue logo you could simply switch to "shutter glasses" ... now its just removed, either yet to be tested and implemented or a diliberate ploy as I said before.

Maybe 3d monitor manufacturers have nice back hander contract with nvidia to get them back into releasing stereo drivers again.