USA 2008 Depression

[walker 0]

Hi all

I have family and business interests in the US; so I take some interest in what is happening there.

For some time now I have worried about the US economy.

The news media and economists are no longer just talking recession they are talking a 1930s style Great Depression.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news....60.html

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=69699

Businessmen like Soros are saying it

http://www.newsmax.com/insidec....14.html

it has even made it to Fox News

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,345710,00.html

I am increasingly thinking this is the case. Bear Stearns and Ben Bernanke, the chairman of the Federal Reserve recent testimony makes me think this as does the fast approaching ten trillion dollars of US Government Foreign Debt and the Fifteen Trillion Dollars of Personal Foreign Debt.

The continued movements away from US dollar to the Euro as reserve currency and the USA's fading world influence all add to the picture. As have the peak in Middle East Oil and rising Russian and Chinese influence.

Some are talking about the obvious Bush White House Dollar colapse policy and use of the Dollar as a carry trade currency as well as a carry trade crisis.

This will all obviously have a effect on global security and future wars.

It seems obvious to me that the NeoConMen's Project for the "New American Century" has backfired badly and the US economic power is on the wain, even the head of investment at Goldman Sachs says so; when rats like that leave the ship you know things are bad. This is after all what all the super rich did in 1929 when they told their friends to pull out of stocks and shares.

Worried walker

[TWCRASH 0]

well unlike the mainstream media trying to elect a Democratic president the economy is quit well here despite reports. Now if your selling a house your hurting but that is due to the fact people were charging such outrageous prices that the bottom finally came after so many years. I know I live on the Jersey shore and I can tell you my inlaws were trying to sell their modest house for 500,000+ dollars when all actually facts its really only worth around 3. In contrast I paid 69,000 for my house 10 years ago and last year they assessed it at over 300,000. So Since I aint selling the downturn doesnt effect me one bit.

[walker 0]

So Since I aint selling the downturn doesnt effect me one bit.

Hi

But I would guess the price of gas at the pump, increasing food prices, the prospect of unemployment, the decreasing value of the dollar, your 30,000 Dollars of Tax Debt and watching shares and your 401K disappearing down the toilet does.

Kind regards walker

[sparks50 0]

twcrash: The house prices is just a thermometer on the economy, its not whats causing the downfall.

[General Barron 0]

Read The Dollar Crisis, by Richard Duncan. The book was written in 2003, and its spooky just how spot-on his predictions have been since then.

This problem has been brewing since World War One, when the

European governments went off the gold standard in order to finance their wars. When they repaid their debts to the US, it led to a massive inflation (the "roaring 20s"), which led to the great depression.

The problem really took off in the 70's after Nixon finally broke Bretton Woods, which was a semi-gold standard.

Today, money isn't backed by anything real like gold, it is only backed by a promise from XYZ government. Since it isn't backed by anything real, the banks / governments can basically print as much of it as they want (not possible under a gold standard).

The problem is, governments (not just the US) like to print these IOUs in order to finance their wars and their massive social welfare programs. The number of dollars in circulation has skyrocketed exponentially throughout the 20th-21st century.

So what we have is a massive "dollar bubble", kinda like the tech bubble of the late 90's. We all know what happens to asset bubbles. The value of the asset will eventually collapse. In this case, that means the value of US property, stocks, bonds, etc etc. This will hurt not only the US but the rest of the world.

Too bad Ron Paul didn't get the presidential nomination, he was the only candidate who was even talking about monetary policy.

To the rest of the country, I suggest you bail out of stocks and bonds, and instead keep your wealth in something real and tangible, such as gold, oil, real-estate, businesses, etc. These are real investments anyway; people don't achieve financial freedom by buying shares in mutual funds.

I blame the education system for teaching us NOTHING about finances or investing.

[Spokesperson 0]

The causes for the great depression are quite unkown. Even today. Over production is often presented as the main reason.

The education system at a basic level can't teach anything about finance and investment. One has to have rather good (ie post high-school) knowledge of maths. That's why you study economy in the university and not earlier. You can have it in kindergarten but then that's not the same subject anymore.

Ron Paul knows about the crisis and has very interesting save programs, but his ways would lead to a huge crisis for ordinary people. The president will have to address the problem in one way or another anyway.

A crisis in the US will lead to a crisis in the rest of the world. If there will be another depression there will be a huge blow to the capitalist system. If the US falls into a long-time depression and is on the brink of collapse, capitalism as a system will loose all its current credibility among ordinary people.

The US economy has been in bad condition since long time, but it gets worse for every year. The crisis might not come now, but unless the whole system is reformed there'll be a big crisis later on.

Interesting Links:

http://www.libertydollar.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalmers_Johnson

[TWCRASH 0]

Well quote statistics all you want. We have a weak dollar and alot of debt but the economy is strong. unemployment is at 20 year low, job availability is up, houses are affordable again. My taxes are down and I have been getting rebates from our government for the last 4 or so years. And from what my UK partners are telling me in ventrilo you all pay alot more for basic items than we do, your job market is pretty dead, housing isnt affordable and gas and cigarettes are around 10 bucks a gallon/pack so things are alot worse in other countries than here in the U.S. Food prices are effected by gas prices but not in the numbers people are trying to say they are. I have seen prices on food going up long before this "recession" and it had nothing to do with the cost of gas.

[mr.g-c 6]

Well through my familiy we have some contacts with high people (member of the boards) on german investment bank(s), and they have said that the current crisis is artificial made (like the on in 1930) to let the dollar crash (it has lost 98% of it value since 1913) and to implement a new currency.

They currently plan to call it Amero and it will be for the US, Canada and Mexico. Later on they will introduce the North American Union, much like the European Union is currently.

Thats what was told my Father by a specific guy and he told it me.....

After a quick search in google i found this video on Youtube:

Edit: Just find this in youtube, worth to Watch!!!

and:

Well..... no comment.....

[Prydain 1]

I am not taking this discussion seriously but if you listen Stephen Previs he says "we are coming into a second from bottom for gold", now I don't know what he is actually talking about there but gold is priced the same the world over, the price difference is tax only.

Personally I don't think Canada is stupid enough to give the US control of its domestic inflation and interest rates and the US is certainly not going to give the Canadians control.

[Spokesperson 0]

Well through my familiy we have some contacts with high people (member of the boards) on german investment bank(s), and they have said that the current crisis is artificial made (like the on in 1930) to let the dollar crash (it has lost 98% of it value since 1913) and to implement a new currency.

They currently plan to call it Amero and it will be for the US, Canada and Mexico. Later on they will introduce the North American Union, much like the European Union is currently.

Thats what was told my Father by a specific guy and he told it me.....

After a quick search in google i found this video on Youtube:

Edit: Just find this in youtube, worth to Watch!!!

and:

Well..... no comment.....

That's very interesting if your sources are the ones you say they are and if they got that information from a reliable source.

The thought is interesting and probably natural from a perspective of profit. But it wouldn't succeed.

[mr.g-c 6]

That's very interesting if your sources are the ones you say they are and if they got that information from a reliable source.

The thought is interesting and probably natural from a perspective of profit. But it wouldn't succeed.

They are like i told....

Well you know we live hear south of Frankfurt/Germany and my father has some friends from studying times, one of them is actually a member of the board in a international acting investment bank located in Frankfurt and also (what my father calls him) a "financial expert".

He is the guy that told it my father and my father told it my family, as we have very often long discussions about the current world situations (we find it the most important thing to be well informed about whats going on).

My Personal opinion about this (if someone wants to know it) is mixed between good/bad.

On the one hand humanity must be united, because we are all "the same", so i like the idea of a one-world-government/a world with open boarders if we all will keep our country/region-unique traditions and values, because thats what makes it interesting to meet other people from other countrys/explore foreign countrys .

On the other hand, what is done currently or what they are obviously trying to achieve is done only for advantages of a worldwide rich and greedy minority + they possibly create bubbles and crashes at the stock markets (there are people suffering from that because they loose their jobs), start new wars, and so on - which is truly not "good".

So i have very mixed feelings about this..... i mean we already have it hear in Europe (the EU) and we have a lot of problems with the behavior of the immigrants from south and eastern europe, but only because they are coming from less evolved countrys.

If all the countrys in the world, from where they are coming, would have the same level in terms of education, economy, human rights and so on, then this would be no problem at all and "they" could unite the world for gods sake even tomorrow.

But reality looks different i guess...

Regards, Christian

[Journeyman 0]

As have the peak in Middle East Oil and rising Russian and Chinese influence.

Hmmm .. this one grabbed my attention! I sure hope you are wrong though about oil peaking in the Middle East, but like many others know full well that this could very well be here already if not surely imminent.

Of course knowing about 'Peak Oil' as you surely already do and possibly understanding the inevitable implications of this seemingly imminent event it would seem that being concerned about the present state of the faltering US economy is being a bit futile in this respect!

Of course for those who are still unaware of the phenomenon of 'Peak Oil' then yes the US economy is on desperately borrowed time to which there will inevitably be dark times ahead.

I think that the only real question regarding both of these events at this time is not if but when?

... Latest reports show that Russian oil fields could already by in decline ….

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssEnergyNews/idUSL0271555820080402

http://www.commodityonline.com/news/topstory/newsdetails.php?id=7094

So we are all waiting on the Middle East!

[shinRaiden 0]

Ron Paul's also got extensive ties to Neo-Nazi organizations and lots of other screwball groups that ironically run counter to his comments about fiscal policy. Furthermore, his 'solution' is the fiscal equivalent of putting your money in a jar and hiding it under your bed.

Commodity-based economic theory is a nice idea at first glance, but if you follow the money you find the proponents having vested interests in it just as much as the people who advocate paper money. Likewise, the past crisis of gold vs silver standards. The benefit of commodity-based models is that at some point, regardless of what happens, there still remains a tangible asset with some intrinsic value.

The downside to commodity-based systems is that they tend to discourage liquidity. That idea is that the movement of money generates wealth, as opposed to just the static accumulation of resources. The discord between the two components, ie the tangible commodities and the intangible exchange instruments, is perhaps a principal cause of the instability.

Students of US history should be aware that the US has a long and sordid history with real estate speculation. Pre-dating even the National Bank crisis of the Jacksonian administration, real estate speculation has been a constant theme of US domestic economics. The liquidity of paper-based exchange has provided the ability for venturing parties to expand and develop new resources that they otherwise would not be able to. The inter-bank discounting allowed the growth of inter-regional commerce and the industrial capacity to grow the national economy.

However, until the socialist Wilson's administration enacted the Federal Reserve system, and the FDR administration's commercial banking regulations, there was insufficient depth and regulatory oversight to both mandate best operating practices, and provide a relief mechanism for the primary banks. For all intents and purposes, you could drive a wagon out into the middle of the prairie, print bills out the back of your wagon, and have people buy and sell land off of that. The catch is if you weren't good with numbers, you might not understand what's a safe debt-to-asset ratio, and if the railroad decides overnight not to build to your town, you're screwed and so's everyone with your paper.

The Federal Reserve system and banking regulations are a help, not a hindrance. As proof of that, notice that in the present 'crisis' the primary banks that are subject to those regulations are having less than ideal fiscal calendars, but are doing just fine. It's the commercial and investment banks, which are not subject to those regulations, and which are engaging in historically inadvisable practices that are having 'problems'.

The immediate roots of the present mess lay in continued fallout from the junk bond and leveraging models that gained noteriety in the late 70's through 90's, and we're now seeing the second wave of negative consequences from those that are still attempting to profit by griefing the economy. The simplified idea of junk bonds is that by taking a large variety of questionable high-risk investments, and aggregating them together, they then in theory balance each other's risk and have a higher value and lower risk. As they were less regulated with a 'buyer-beware' warning, they are easier to churn over. This allowed for the recent incarnations of industrial mergers, where the buying organization would often issue large risky bonds to finance the purchase of established corporations, and then flip the bonds by liquidating or otherwise restructuring the acquired company. This method has it's uses, but like all good things succumbed to abuse and manipulation.

A good analogy of this is a particular game of monopoly I played once. By immediately mortgaging all acquired properties I kept enough cash in play that I controlled the board by 'owning' half of all properties within 5 minutes. Now I didn't actually own all those properties, they were all mortgaged and I had about 5 bucks left over. But betting on the chance of not getting stuck with any nasty penalties that I couldn't cover, I had effectively 'won' because I had 'control', even though technically I didn't 'own' anything. Ironically, I actually got banned from playing monopoly for a while by my parents (pre-teen years) because I played so dirty that they were worried about it affecting my moral character in terms of financial behavior :P

The massive cash flows that increased because of this jump in investment significantly increased the speculative interest in differential investing, the kind of which tanked Barclay's bank in Asia. This is where you try to shave non-value-added profits off routine business. In Barclay's case, they were trying capture the difference between multiple parallel markets. Other hucksters in the 90's sold methods that on paper seemed viable, such as attempting to exploit subtle variations by day-trading. In theory, it sounds like an interesting idea, but it runs counter to the fundamental principle of sound investing, that the purpose of investing is to build up the investment, not to bleed it dry. Again, day-trading in moderation has it's place, but in excess led to the absurdity of the dot.com IPO rush.

There was a chart I saw once, and unfortunately I didn't have the presence of mind to save it, but it showed a certain tech company's annual sales growing at a modest healthy level for several years, then their annual growth rate tripled in the last pre-Y2k years. They projected that adjusted rate to be the actual baseline because marketing says that next year must be better than last year. They then took a huge hit in the post-Y2K re-normalization that continued on through the post-9/11 freeze. However, their 'massive decline' actually tracked straight through back to the 'normal' prep-boom growth line, they just wouldn't admit that it was in actuality a short-term burst in the middle of long-term stable growth.

One of the schemes promoted in the late 90's was that of leveraged real estate speculation. This was targeted at a new generation unacquainted with the historical cases of the spectacular failure of this particular function. The idea is that by using specialized mortgages that have minimal interest-only payments, the investor can then 'control' substantially more capital than they otherwise would qualify for. Again, in moderation there is measure of good business in this, but it rapidly began to be exploited by people with unsound ability. I heard a radio ad the other day about how someone thinks they're rich because they 'own' 36 houses. In all actuality, their name is on the loans for 36 empty houses, and they don't own the one they actually live in.

All those mortgages are, like the junk bonds mentioned previously, got bundled up and sold to an investment bank which unlike a commercial bank is not subject to the regulations intended to protect the lenders and lendees. So the investment banks, like Bear Stearns, thought they'd get rich by squeezing off the fees and monthly interest payments, and loaned out all the money they had. Investing in Bear Sterns meant that your money was going to fund those schemes.

The latest wrinkle is apparently the investment banks found a method to get around the regulations put in place to prevent insider exploitation like the kind of Enron. Now there are investigations into rigged insider trading, because some people made a pile of money off the fire sale.

The summary of this is that there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Incidentally, I got a notice from my bank stating that they were raising my credit limit because I paid my bills and stayed out of debt, proving my ability to live within my means. If that were adopted as habit instead of speculation, that would fix a lot of things.

[General Barron 0]

... Incidentally, I got a notice from my bank stating that they were raising my credit limit because I paid my bills and stayed out of debt, proving my ability to live within my means. If that were adopted as habit instead of speculation, that would fix a lot of things.

Amen to that. This "credit crisis" is caused by people (both "rich" and "poor") who simply don't know how to manage their money. They are screwing things up for the rest of the world. So are the banks who are lending to them.

But again, if we didn't have a fractional reserve system (where the governments and banks are able to "create" ~10 dollars for every 1 dollar they have in deposits), then the banks wouldn't really be so willing to lend all this money in the first place.

I mean, if someone let you print almost as much money as you wanted, wouldn't YOU lend as much as you can for a nice return?

The governments set up the rules, and these rules are flawed from the start. If those rules were different, we wouldn't have this problem.

The federal reserve system is a hindrance to capitalism. Capitalism is about competition, yet governments outlaw competing currencies. Then, when banks STILL manage to somehow screw themselves up (even though they own the printing presses for the dollars), the government turns around and forces the taxpayer to bail that bank out (like what happened in the UK recently). Maybe we'd be a bit more careful if things weren't so darn "safe". Maybe we'd avoid more disasters if we were a bit more careful.

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Yes the US Economy is like a house of cards at the moment.

Yet some of those cards are built of brick.  If the sky is falling, if the strong points can hold the stack together, for how long, and how to strengthen the stack has been quite the talk of journalists that couldn't hack a business major.

Panic is for fools, sound judgement and looking to those that acually have a grasp on the theories that make an free-market  economy (kind of) run is wiser.

To bad wise people are rare.  

Quoting the news as fact on this topic is about as smart as using wikipedia as a refrence for investing...garbage in, garbage out.

Self perpetuating theory I say.

I'm gonna go live in a cave and eat berries, or be that guy pushing a shopping cart full of cans & yelling at imaginary hecklers by the time this political "season" is over.

[xawery 0]

Then, when banks STILL manage to somehow screw themselves up (even though they own the printing presses for the dollars), the government turns around and forces the taxpayer to bail that bank out (like what happened in the UK recently). Maybe we'd be a bit more careful if things weren't so darn "safe". Maybe we'd avoid more disasters if we were a bit more careful.

Yes, that's a fine example of moral hazard: if financial institutions know they will always be able to fall back on a lender of last resort, why should they act in a prudent manner? Conversely, consumers will be less inclined to invest time into looking for a sound financial institution to invest in if they know that the gov't will bail them out if things go south (adverse selection).

However, let us not forget the historical perspective. The UK is one of the most laissez-faire countries when it comes to the economy. Remeber Barings? When it went belly-up the BoE didn't lift a finger, amidst feverish cries for government intervention.

Nationalising Northern Rock was the lesser evil; even such a liberal paper as The Economist agrees on that. With no private investor in sight, something had to be done to keep the 27 mil GBP from evaporating. It sounds paradoxical to charge the taxpayer for safeguarding his money, but Northern Rock will repay the borrowed money as soon as it becomes stable. Of course, this does nothing to alleviate the distortion of the market. A state-backed bank is simply unfair competition.

What's really worrying about this situation is the role of the FSA. The Agency has just released a report on its own shortcomings in the Northern Rock affair. The supervision was peacemeal, the reviews infrequent and the analyses too optimistic. This is the truly worrying part: the FSA is supposed to be one of the best financial supervisors in the world...

[TWCRASH 0]

i get so tired of people who don't live here trying to trash our country. I live in the greatest country in the world. Even with all its faults. God bless America.

[-Snafu- 78]

i get so tired of people who don't live here trying to trash our country. I live in the greatest country in the world. Even with all its faults. God bless America.

I don't see any bashing going on. I see people criticising your government and they are well within there right to do so seeing how your country's economy affects everyone else's which in turn affects us.

Quote[/b] ]I live in the greatest country in the world.

Ah. So lived in every other country have we?

[Spokesperson 0]

i get so tired of people who don't live here trying to trash our country. I live in the greatest country in the world. Even with all its faults. God bless America.

Your country has trashed many other countries, and has tens of millions of people on its conscience.

You're just repeating american nationalist propaganda with that "God Bless America" nonsense.

It's all lies. Long time ago back in decadent rome people didn't have to lie. People were slaves and masters, and that was it. It was clear who had the power and who hadn't. When the slaves got powerful enough to over-power their masters, or when slavery was too inefficient other factors had to be invented to keep the population in chains. To control it. But not physically like before. Organized religion and conformism were used to do this. Religion turned into the opium of the masses. Then the dark ages passed, peasant uprisings and few recruits made barons and kings invent another idea of unification called nationalism. "Germany" and its rulers had to be defended from Napoleonic anti-monarchist "terror" etc. Earlier nobody cared if they fought for their lords or not. So at that time people grew up with nationalism and religion and believed in it. Today those things are on a decline but where the society gets more unstable, when the rulers are threatened, nationalism and religion gain in power, just like in the ex-USSR. Then we have the other ingredient of hegemony, racism. When communists had so much suppoert that it turned into a huge threat for the ruling class in the weimar republic, they supported the pro-capitalist nazis with money. Because they were the only party that could stop the communists and save the privileges of the ruling class and expand them by reducing the rights of the working class. After massive financial backing, Hitler came into power with the help of a small conservative party.

Today there's another way to unite people. That's in the "war against terror". All who don't do exactly as the ruling class wants, and is a threat to it, or are in their way get classed as terrorists. And if you aren't against them you're one yourself. That's why FARC, PFLP, the nepalese maoist guerilla, PKK and other liberation movements are classed as terrorists. With the same terminology the vietnam war was a war on "terror" and for "freedom", but oddly enough the vietnamese people were "terrorists" and didn't want "freedom" when they opposed the US mass-murders, terror bombings and hunger for profit.

"God bless america" is therefore just a meaningless echo of the primitive past and current reality of humanity. People who follow like sheep and rulers who tell fabolous tales so the sheep are ready follow their rulers (who don't exist -we learn they are ghosts) over a steep cliff without their knowing.

[TWCRASH 0]

i get so tired of people who don't live here trying to trash our country. I live in the greatest country in the world. Even with all its faults. God bless America.

I don't see any bashing going on. I see people criticising your government and they are well within there right to do so seeing how your country's economy affects everyone else's which in turn affects us.

Quote[/b] ]I live in the greatest country in the world.

Ah. So lived in every other country have we?

No and I don't want to either.

[TWCRASH 0]

i get so tired of people who don't live here trying to trash our country. I live in the greatest country in the world. Even with all its faults. God bless America.

Your country has trashed many other countries, and has tens of millions of people on its conscience.

You're just repeating american nationalist propaganda with that "God Bless America" nonsense.

It's all lies. Long time ago back in decadent rome people didn't have to lie. People were slaves and masters, and that was it. It was clear who had the power and who hadn't. When the slaves got powerful enough to over-power their masters, or when slavery was too inefficient other factors had to be invented to keep the population in chains. To control it. But not physically like before. Organized religion and conformism were used to do this. Religion turned into the opium of the masses. Then the dark ages passed, peasant uprisings and few recruits made barons and kings invent another idea of unification called nationalism. "Germany" and its rulers had to be defended from Napoleonic anti-monarchist "terror" etc. Earlier nobody cared if they fought for their lords or not. So at that time people grew up with nationalism and religion and believed in it. Today those things are on a decline but where the society gets more unstable, when the rulers are threatened, nationalism and religion gain in power, just like in the ex-USSR. Then we have the other ingredient of hegemony, racism. When communists had so much suppoert that it turned into a huge threat for the ruling class in the weimar republic, they supported the pro-capitalist nazis with money. Because they were the only party that could stop the communists and save the privileges of the ruling class and expand them by reducing the rights of the working class. After massive financial backing, Hitler came into power with the help of a small conservative party.

Today there's another way to unite people. That's in the "war against terror". All who don't do exactly as the ruling class wants, and is a threat to it, or are in their way get classed as terrorists. And if you aren't against them you're one yourself. That's why FARC, PFLP, the nepalese maoist guerilla, PKK and other liberation movements are classed as terrorists. With the same terminology the vietnam war was a war on "terror" and for "freedom", but oddly enough the vietnamese people were "terrorists" and didn't want "freedom" when they opposed the US mass-murders, terror bombings and hunger for profit.

"God bless america" is therefore just a meaningless echo of the primitive past and current reality of humanity. People who follow like sheep and rulers who tell fabolous tales so the sheep are ready follow their rulers (who don't exist -we learn they are ghosts) over a steep cliff without their knowing.

amazing how defensive people get when you're the big dog on the block and they step in your poop.....

[MehMan 0]

i get so tired of people who don't live here trying to trash our country. I live in the greatest country in the world. Even with all its faults. God bless America.

Your country has trashed many other countries, and has tens of millions of people on its conscience.

You're just repeating american nationalist propaganda with that "God Bless America" nonsense.

It's all lies. Long time ago back in decadent rome people didn't have to lie. People were slaves and masters, and that was it. It was clear who had the power and who hadn't. When the slaves got powerful enough to over-power their masters, or when slavery was too inefficient other factors had to be invented to keep the population in chains. To control it. But not physically like before. Organized religion and conformism were used to do this. Religion turned into the opium of the masses. Then the dark ages passed, peasant uprisings and few recruits made barons and kings invent another idea of unification called nationalism. "Germany" and its rulers had to be defended from Napoleonic anti-monarchist "terror" etc. Earlier nobody cared if they fought for their lords or not. So at that time people grew up with nationalism and religion and believed in it. Today those things are on a decline but where the society gets more unstable, when the rulers are threatened, nationalism and religion gain in power, just like in the ex-USSR. Then we have the other ingredient of hegemony, racism. When communists had so much suppoert that it turned into a huge threat for the ruling class in the weimar republic, they supported the pro-capitalist nazis with money. Because they were the only party that could stop the communists and save the privileges of the ruling class and expand them by reducing the rights of the working class. After massive financial backing, Hitler came into power with the help of a small conservative party.

Today there's another way to unite people. That's in the "war against terror". All who don't do exactly as the ruling class wants, and is a threat to it, or are in their way get classed as terrorists. And if you aren't against them you're one yourself. That's why FARC, PFLP, the nepalese maoist guerilla, PKK and other liberation movements are classed as terrorists. With the same terminology the vietnam war was a war on "terror" and for "freedom", but oddly enough the vietnamese people were "terrorists" and didn't want "freedom" when they opposed the US mass-murders, terror bombings and hunger for profit.

"God bless america" is therefore just a meaningless echo of the primitive past and current reality of humanity. People who follow like sheep and rulers who tell fabolous tales so the sheep are ready follow their rulers (who don't exist -we learn they are ghosts) over a steep cliff without their knowing.

What does this have to do with the upcoming danger of a global rape in the economy?

Please, keep it to another topic.

Quote[/b] ]i get so tired of people who don't live here trying to trash our country. I live in the greatest country in the world. Even with all its faults. God bless America.

We're not trashing your country, only your administration and economy. If you think they are doing a great job then you have a very very very skewed image of how things are.

Why are we talking about this? Well if anything big happens in the US it also happens in the rest of the world, to a smaller degree.

[TWCRASH 0]

no I agree what we does effect everyone else as well but so does everyone else. But thats because economics is global now. You think what happens in England or China or Russia doesn't effect the U.S? If that was the case hell gas would be 10 cents a barrel but its not. America imports 90% of all goods sold within the us from China,taiwan, miiddle east, Mexico and Korea. So if those countries have problems they effect us as well. I remember when Taiwan had that huge fire back in the early 90's it caused PC memory to be scarce and 100 bucks per meg. Which we paid to build systems. I mention this because I build em for a living and that put one hell of a crunch on new systems I built and sold. and without going thru the web and looking it up I can bet you could make a laundry list of items that have effected us over the last 50+ years. Bottom line is there will be no US "Depression" if it came to that there would be a "world" despression due to the fallout.

**NOTE** as for the God bless America statement that isn't a slogan to me. I believe and honor both sides of it. Now if you are Godless and don't wish your own country well that's on you.

God Bless America and all those who believe in Him.

[sparks50 0]

Glenn Beck's Real Story from January 9, 2008 - Touching the third rail and interview Dave Walker.

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's all lies. Long time ago back in decadent rome people didn't have to lie. People were slaves and masters, and that was it.

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With the same terminology the vietnam war was a war on "terror" and for "freedom", but oddly enough the vietnamese people were "terrorists" and didn't want "freedom" when they opposed the US mass-murders, terror bombings and hunger for profit.

Communism is slavery. I'd rather be dead than live like that. Many southern Vietnamese felt the same way as me, and many did die defending their country from the communist invaders.

Quote[/b] ]i get so tired of people who don't live here trying to trash our country. I live in the greatest country in the world. Even with all its faults. God bless America.

I'm not trying to trash our country either. Although it does have its faults, I do believe it is still the free-est place on Earth, and I don't have to believe in any god to feel that way.

But it does have flaws, flaws which are shared by every other country (at least, every country with a central bank). I believe these flaws are leading to an economic disaster, possibly on the scale of the 1930's.

Even if the disaster doesn't happen now, we still have millions of baby-boomers waiting to retire on the back of a bankrupt, socialist-welfare system called Social Security. And we aren't the only country with that problem. You think we have a "liquidity crisis" now? What's going to happen when millions of baby-boomers suddenly start selling their stocks to fund their retirement? What will happen social security suddenly needs to pay out far more than it takes in? All the surplus money in that program has already been spent, you know.

Our generation is going to pay for the socialist BS of our grandparent's generation.