MK19 Recoile

[Balschoiw 0]

Vehicle mounted grenade weapons should hardly produce the recoil we see in Arma. The mass effect on the vehicle is simply too low to move it.

Additionally to this BIS should remove the smoke that is shown when firing a 40mm weapon of any kind. There is hardly any noticeable smoke when firing such a weapon IRL. Additionally there should be a realistic tracer system embedded for the automatic launchers.

Quote[/b] ](340 rpm baby, 340 rpm! )

This won´t really help you much as you only have a magazine size of 32 beltfed projectiles per box.

That´s why the gun is hardly ever used in auto mode as it´s ammo would be depleted within 5 seconds.

[frederf 0]

Basically all the improvements people are talking about sound like the feature list of this modification I have. I'll see about increasing the RoF to realistic 340 rpm and then post it for you guys to all enjoy and dissect for learning purposes.

Ok I've made these Stryker into a public release with a pretty crappy readme. Link following.

http://www.squick.org/~frederf/listed2/4IB/4IB_Vehicles%20v1.zip

[Balschoiw 0]

The Mk19 only has a rate of 60 shots per minute in rapid-fire mode and 40 shots per minute in sustained mode.

[7 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Mk 19 is able to lob its grenade at a maximum distance of 2,212 meters, though its effective range for a point target is about 1,500 meters, since the large rear leaf sight is only graduated to 1500 meters. The nearest safe distance to launch the grenade is 75 meters. In addition, the Mk 19's flash suppressor and its lack of smoke during firing makes it difficult for enemies to spot and counter it.

[frederf 0]

The Mk19 only has a rate of 60 shots per minute in rapid-fire mode and 40 shots per minute in sustained mode.

You need to learn the difference between rapid, sustained, and cyclic rates of fire.

Honestly it's kinda suck that ArmA doesn't deal with heat or wear at all so you can go full cyclic all day on any ArmA weapon with no fear of cookoff, barrel droop, or inaccuracy.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]You need to learn the difference between rapid, sustained, and cyclic rates of fire.

I know the difference. Cyclic rof is only a theoretical rof that can never be achieved irl and has no relevance for Arma ingame settings as only realistic rof´s make sense in a game that portrays the useage of weapons under real-life conditions.

Realistic ROF for the Mk19 is 60 rpm while a rate of 40 is suggested to avoid problems. As the Mk19 is very vulnerable to disfunction the 40 rpm has been found most effective when operating the weapon.

[frederf 0]

See the thing is cyclic is defined as the rate of fire that the weapon exhibits when you hold down the trigger. Cyclic can't be impossible since it is based upon reality. Sorry for being snippy but using cyclic as the rate of fire is what every addon maker does. Suggesting otherwise shows a lack of understanding on how addons are produced.

I agree that cyclic is not a practical measure of normal use. My car goes 135 MPH but I don't drive it that fast. As an addon maker my hands are bound. I can limit the rate of fire to what's practical and be wrong because the weapon is capable of more for short periods of time or I can let the cyclic rate be the maximum rate for any length of time... and be wrong.

I was tired of the AI using full cyclic though. That's why on this addon the AI is limited to a rate of fire of 60 RPM or less. It's up to BIS to make heat and wear a factor in weapons or up to the user to use their imagination and self control and sense of immersion to regulate their rate of fire for them.

[Balschoiw 0]

I don´t know anything about producing addons but in my understanding it makes more sense to use the effective rate of fire than using a theoretical value that would destroy the weapon given that you had indefinate ammo feed and would be impractible as the weight of the ammo you´d had to carry using such rof would exceed most infantry and vehicle capacities.

I see the problems though and I understand your reasoning about implementation in Arma. I only do see such things from an operator perspective and not from the perspective of an addon creator.

Cheers.

[max power 21]

Cyclic rate is useful for simulating the weapon's mechanical functioning. It gives you a realistic volume of fire. The sustained rate of fire is useful for simulating the amount of time it takes to reload the weapon.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Can't the Arma AI be configured so as to vary their rate of

fire with the range to target (ie. careful measured fire at

longer range; more rapid in a close-in emergency)? I thought

there were config' variables that controlled that.

[Money 0]

Real life MK-19 being fired from a hummer

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b71_1193932425

[max power 21]

Can't the Arma AI be configured so as to vary their rate of

fire with the range to target (ie. careful measured fire at

longer range; more rapid in a close-in emergency)? I thought

there were config' variables that controlled that.

I think that's the default behaviour. The troops are improved over flashpoint in that they fire in short bursts, but the tanks and vehicles still fire single shots in increasing frequency as they get closer to the target (in a linear relationship, it seems).

[Rocco 0]

wow those videos show the intellect of those american soldiers!

but on topic, yea, the mk19 ingame is ridiculous.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I would be worried at 60 RPM with a grenade launcher even 40 RPM would seem fast.

A round cooking off in an MG or rifle who's barrel is red hot is bad enough but in a grenade launcher the concept is truly frightening.

Kind Regards walker

[Second 0]

Blah. Most smallarms (atleast soviet ones) can be fired in as fast phase as it takes to change empty magazine or ammo-belt to new one for thousands of bullets before weapon "deforms" even in slight way. Yes, i've seen the charts and heard his viewpoints from tester himself (officer whos job was to repair weapons and know them inside-out, from smallarms to cannons). I've even posted them here somewhere and in my viewpoint this discussion is pointless. People are stating about these kind things which doesn't have any big, just very minor, importance in battlefield. While there are real problems related to making ArmA succesful, challenging and playable fps or maybe even simulation.

Yes i know that most thinks that ArmA is somekind mil-hardware simulation, where every bolt and screw in 3D-model has to be in correct position and there are even slightest (unimportant) details conserning hardware modelled... Sigh.

EDIT: So if 40mm and few other weaponsystems are prone to malfunctions, just make it not able to fire at speed able to break it or ignore malfunctions. Whole system should not be tweaked because of those few weapons, it's fruitless and unimportant.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Blah. Most smallarms (atleast soviet ones) can be fired in as fast phase as it takes to change empty magazine or ammo-belt to new one for thousands of bullets before weapon "deforms" even in slight way.

This is at least not true for western equipment I have been using.

A gun barrel will turn blue very soon (from my own experience after 80 to 100 shots) and it´s not the deformation that is critical first but the overheating of the chamber that will cause reload problems and malfunctions. While the barrel surely will not deform at that point you will be unable to keep going as you will have malfunctions.

Apart from the heat that will make it unable for you to hold the gun in a serious manner anymore. I once ended up with pulling a boonie from the side pocket of my trousers and had to protect my hand that was guiding the gun from the heat the gun produced. Machine guns are very volatile to overheating aswell, that´s why some have a standard replacement barrel with them that has to be used if you don´t want to risk that your gun gets seriously jammed or worse. There were also instances I have witnessed where barrels from machineguns that got shot white and where dropped out of the gun into snow were damaged beyond repair because of the sudden cool-down.

This is not nonsense but part of the deal when operating weapons.

Additionally tests have found that 491 shots of 5.56 ammunition fired with a M16A2 rifle within 169 seconds made the barrel rupture and burst. The temperature of the barrel was ~870° C. The M4A1 barrel lasted just over three and a half minutes for 596 rounds at a max temperature of ~892° C. This is the point where the barrel got totally destroyed. Malfunctions due to heat are coming up much, much sooner and are known from reports from units using such rifles under mission-conditions.

[Second 0]

Quite intresting. AK-47 was fired for 10 magazines and only pauses were when operator changed magazines (selector was on auto and trigger was pressed all the time). Handguard did start to turn black and barrel was somewhat damaged. No reported malfunctions. Same with various other (mostly eastern) weapons, some which used 10 times greater amount of ammo. Two machineguns (other being PKM, other having theoratical 1000 rounds per minute, but using 7.62x39mm) was just feed a new belt after previous got empty and then gunner started to rock again. Weapon was 100% sound after 3000 bullets, no malfunctions or deforming exept one which was flaw of gunner no weapon or ammo (not related to PKM). I don't remeber about 23mm AA-gun, but amount of fire it could pour down without damages or malfunctions was stunning. Basically test's conclusion was that soldiers can't fire that amount of ammo in that amount of time.

But that your example conserning M16A2 or M4 shows the amount of ammo fired in so fast phase... Is that reality in ArmA for players or AI? I can't think many situations where AI would have been in such situation that they could or would have fired all their mags in such fast tempo. Basically it would be quite amok-feat if someone would burn that amount of virtual powder in that amount of time and yet survive it.

[MehMan 0]

There are so many variables to think about with the weapon firing tests that it's quite useless to bicker about it here and now when it has no effect on the game whatsoever.

The point of the topic is that the Mk19 recoil has been exagerated from release, the rate of fire is too low and the issues was reported many times over and nothing done.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

I can't think many situations where AI would have been in such situation that they could or would have fired all their mags in such fast tempo. Basically it would be quite amok-feat if someone would burn that amount of virtual powder in that amount of time and yet survive it.

Set up some AI guys in a skirmish line with machine guns and

place a hundred or so of those target objects that they will

fire at. It's like Knob Creek on steroids.  

[Second 0]

I can't think many situations where AI would have been in such situation that they could or would have fired all their mags in such fast tempo. Basically it would be quite amok-feat if someone would burn that amount of virtual powder in that amount of time and yet survive it.

Set up some AI guys in a skirmish line with machine guns and

place a hundred or so of those target objects that they will

fire at. It's like Knob Creek on steroids.

Yeah sure. I've seen SLA troops wasting their all mags in short amount of time by firing at empty HMG from couple tens of meters... I hate that Their weapons could melt and their cartridges could blow their eyes off in those situations and i would actually have quite fun.

MehMan: True-true. It's somewhat stunning that BIS isn't capable to fix this kind problems. Has anybody fixed MK19 by tweaking configs or is this somekind mystery to community as well?

[Maddmatt 1]

Has anybody fixed MK19 by tweaking configs or is this somekind mystery to community as well?

Changing the shell simulation to 'shotbullet' removes the insane kickback. However then you no longer see a grenade flying through the air, since bullets cannot be shown as models but only laser like tracers.

Using a scripting technique similar to that used for tracers mods you could create the visible grenade though

It also removes the horrible muzzleflash/smoke effect that was copied straight from OFP's tank cannon effect.

[frederf 0]

So what does everyone think of my addon?

[Yeb 0]

You should have posted it in A&M: complete to get more feedback.

But it's an excellent add-on though it only fixes the mk19 issue for stryker (not humwee and ags-30 issues).

That's a nice addition and i'm currently using it, i especially like the new gunner's view.

[mr.g-c 6]

AGS30:

[max power 21]

I think it's standard procedure to sandbag the front leg of the tripod of the mk19.. at least this is what futureweapons would have me believe. It looks like grenade machineguns in general are fairly instable weapons and require more weight or very sturdy mount.