Helicopter CONTROL? please help

[LtCmdrBoon 0]

THe way choppers handle (most noticeable the cobra) was well improved in the 1.09 beta

It no longer drops like a stone if u turn at speed

The rolling axis of a chopper is used to steer when at high speed, just like a jet you see. They only yaw when at low speeds, and its not a way to steer. The only time really for yawing at any speed, is to make a tiny correction in the FFAR targeting, anything else is false hopes.

As posted above, the best way to slow a chopper from fast without climbing like nobodys business is to roll (ie bank) 60' or so, and pull right back, using ur throttle as ur guts say, 100% or 0% makes little difference, but things happen very quickly, and a little difference is between a cracked screen or not.

It takes a few gos to get the hang of it, but if u need to fly low and fast, and all of a sudden the radar fills up red, its the only thing that will stop u flying into the red.

[Megahurt 0]

After hours and hours of trying to master this crazy helo flight model, i went back to flashpont to fly choppers where you can control them and actually fly them like a pro.

In arma ill stick to walking.

I play this for fun, and choppers in this game arent fun, they stink. Sad but true.

[7 0]

After hours and hours of trying to master this crazy helo flight model, i went back to flashpont to fly choppers where you can control them and actually fly them like a pro.

In arma ill stick to walking.

I play this for fun, and choppers in this game arent fun, they stink. Sad but true.

Sorry man but that attitude is kinda childish. Sure armas fm isnt perfect but its alot more realistic than ofps. Dont rack down on stuff just cause you suck at it

[Master gamawa 0]

After hours and hours of trying to master this crazy helo flight model, i went back to flashpont to fly choppers where you can control them and actually fly them like a pro.

In arma ill stick to walking.

I play this for fun, and choppers in this game arent fun, they stink. Sad but true.

yeah come on its not that hard.

Train in the editor. Put a few empty helicopters on the map and fly around the place. Then put a truck convoy for target practice.

You ll be flying your helicopter fine in no time.

[Sosna 0]

Arma's chopper flight model is definitely more realistic than OFP's, but there are some grave errors that make it unintuitive and unpleasant to fly.

First, when you bank the chopper in Arma the aircraft cuts into the bank as you lose altitude. This is wrong. Realistically, the chopper does lose altitude, but the bank is leveled out on its own fairly quickly (and no more altitude is lost).

Second, and it's related to the first, the helicopter sideslips too easily. Banking or pitching very slightly, then letting the stick center starts an exponential gain in speed in that particular direction. In reality if you bank/pitch the stick slightly and let it center, the chopper gradually levels out and slows to a hover.

To summarize: Any cyclic modification should level out on its own eventually, the time depending on the extremity of the movement - Currently this does not happen, and it's the main problem with the flight model.

Third, the throttle does not have enough influence. When attempting to land, pulling up and reducing the collective, the chopper will continue to climb a ridiculous height, even if the throttle is at zero. The throttle needs to influence lift far more directly. Helicopters generate no other significant lift as a plane would.

And lastly, the rudder is too weak when moving at speed - I think this issue may be resolved though in the next patch since the problem is similar with planes.

I suggest that BI checks out some helicopter sims. Jane's Longbow 2 has probably the best flight model, but it's not an easy game to find, or to run with modern systems. Next best would be I guess Enemy Engaged. An abandonware game with a superb flight model is Hind, works fairly easily on Windows XP, can be downloaded here, or here.

Would be nice to have realistic chopper flight in Arma, definitely in Arma 2 since there's such a pretty Hind  

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Sosna, while I agree ArmAs flight model needs some work, most of your statements about how actual helicopters handle are incorrect. Read about dynamic instability. Longbow wasn't that realistic, x-plane is the closest there is and even that is nothing like the real thing.

[max power 21]

Sosna, while I agree ArmAs flight model needs some work, most of your statements about how actual helicopters handle are incorrect. Read about dynamic instability. Longbow wasn't that realistic, x-plane is the closest there is and even that is nothing like the real thing.

What he was saying did sound strange to me. Everything I've heard about flying a helicopter says that they constantly try to kill you.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Haha there is a saying something like "A helicopter is always trying to commit suicide, it's the pilots job to convince it otherwise"

[Emryse 2]

I for one think that BIS would greatly increase their popularity with a wider segment of simulator fans out there if they built in better physics and realism models for their aircraft, both fixed wing and rotor.

What most people fail to get is that while an easy game can be quickly picked up and learned, a challenging game offers much longer playability and enjoyment. Once the challenge and learning is done, it's really a short period of time before it gets boring.

For ArmA, that's been slowed by the release of some amazing addons that attempt to offer more realism and challenge, but I think BIS could greatly improve on their already phenominal work - if anything, make it really challenging and realistic, and then offer "dumbed down" or "easier" levels of options for those who want a more "arcade" feeling to their game.

Just my $.02 - if by the way anyone knows of an addon to add more realism and options to flying the helos in ArmA, I'm all for it!

[Yoshama 0]

Arma's chopper flight model is definitely more realistic than OFP's, but there are some grave errors that make it unintuitive and unpleasant to fly.

First, when you bank the chopper in Arma the aircraft cuts into the bank as you lose altitude. This is wrong. Realistically, the chopper does lose altitude, but the bank is leveled out on its own fairly quickly (and no more altitude is lost).

Second, and it's related to the first, the helicopter sideslips too easily. Banking or pitching very slightly, then letting the stick center starts an exponential gain in speed in that particular direction. In reality if you bank/pitch the stick slightly and let it center, the chopper gradually levels out and slows to a hover.

To summarize: Any cyclic modification should level out on its own eventually, the time depending on the extremity of the movement - Currently this does not happen, and it's the main problem with the flight model.

Third, the throttle does not have enough influence. When attempting to land, pulling up and reducing the collective, the chopper will continue to climb a ridiculous height, even if the throttle is at zero. The throttle needs to influence lift far more directly. Helicopters generate no other significant lift as a plane would.

And lastly, the rudder is too weak when moving at speed - I think this issue may be resolved though in the next patch since the problem is similar with planes.

I suggest that BI checks out some helicopter sims. Jane's Longbow 2 has probably the best flight model, but it's not an easy game to find, or to run with modern systems. Next best would be I guess Enemy Engaged. An abandonware game with a superb flight model is Hind, works fairly easily on Windows XP, can be downloaded here, or here.

Would be nice to have realistic chopper flight in Arma, definitely in Arma 2 since there's such a pretty Hind  

... you are playing on a key board with digital controls.

unless you get a joy stick, all the stuff they did for it is helpfull. I have a joystic and it is anoying that it is eather on or off but idc because i use the keyboard anyways. its not perfect but it is usable.

[max power 21]

In an interview, Suma said something to the effect of BIS is not significantly changing the flight model for ArmA 2, I think. With that in mind, I don't think that they're going to be revamping it for ArmA. Who knows what they will be inspired to do, though. They've decided to increase the yaw authority in aircraft... maybe small adjustments to this ilk will be part of a broader constant fine-tuning. I don't think that you're going to see a dramatic shift in simulation, though.

[Sosna 0]

Sosna, while I agree ArmAs flight model needs some work, most of your statements about how actual helicopters handle are incorrect. Read about dynamic instability. Longbow wasn't that realistic, x-plane is the closest there is and even that is nothing like the real thing.

Uhh... I'm afraid you are mistaken. The cyclic works by tilting the rotor disk in the direction the joystick is turned. If the joystick is centered, the rotor also is.

Arma does not simulate this. Centering the stick behaves as "no input", rather than "center input". This makes it such that any cyclic movement has to be undone by the pilot in order to fly as intended.

For example: If you take your chopper into a hover, very slightly bank left, and release the stick the helicopter will continue to sideslip leftwards at increasing speed (until it turns into the bank). This is very wrong, that situation implies that the rotor disk stayed in the banked position, when in reality it would be centered, thus leveling the chopper out eventually and slowing the sideslip.

Interestingly, even if you pitch up slightly the helicopter reverses at ever increasing spead until it suddenly turns 180 degrees.  

Just for kicks, I'll try X-Plane, but I doubt it will be much different from the aforementioned sims.

[max power 21]

Sosna, while I agree ArmAs flight model needs some work, most of your statements about how actual helicopters handle are incorrect. Read about dynamic instability. Longbow wasn't that realistic, x-plane is the closest there is and even that is nothing like the real thing.

Uhh... I'm afraid you are mistaken. The cyclic works by tilting the rotor disk in the direction the joystick is turned. If the joystick is centered, the rotor also is.

Arma does not simulate this. Centering the stick behaves as "no input", rather than "center input". This makes it such that any cyclic movement has to be undone by the pilot in order to fly as intended.

For example: If you take your chopper into a hover, very slightly bank left, and release the stick the helicopter will continue to sideslip leftwards at increasing speed (until it turns into the bank). This is very wrong, that situation implies that the rotor disk stayed in the banked position, when in reality it would be centered, thus leveling the chopper out eventually and slowing the sideslip.

Interestingly, even if you pitch up slightly the helicopter reverses at ever increasing spead until it suddenly turns 180 degrees.

Just for kicks, I'll try X-Plane, but I doubt it will be much different from the aforementioned sims.

Now, explain to me what forces generated by centring the cyclic would roll or pitch the helicopter back to its neutral attitude, if you could. I'm confused.

[ArMoGaDoN 0]

Just to say it again, the tail rotor authority is still too low (1.08/1.09) and the lift is wrong when you pull back and drop throttle/collective - zero collective shouldn't give you lift....

Would be nice to think that these issues could be addressed in a final patch.

[Sosna 0]

Quote[/b] ]Now, explain to me what forces generated by centring the cyclic would roll or pitch the helicopter back to its neutral attitude, if you could.  I'm confused.

Consider that the helicopter chassis hangs off the rotor disk. Gravity is what pulls down the chassis, and aligns the centered rotor disk perpendicularly to its pull. It's analogous to why, for example, a parachute is level, and the load centered.

As for slowing the sideslip, in a frictionless scenario a slight bank would cause the helicopter to sideslip indefinitely at constant speed. Realistically though, we have the side of the aircraft ploughing through the air, gradually countering the lateral force that was generated by temporarily tilting the rotor disk.

Helicopters in hover are constantly drifting around in one direction or the other, which the pilot must counter in order to stay static. Hind simulates this perfectly. I don't expect that level of realism for Arma though, I simply wish for the cyclic controls to behave in a realistic way, i.e. when the stick is centered, or no directional keys are pressed, the rotor should be centered.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Sosna, there is no such thing as a center for a cyclic. The only thing that can simulate a center are electric trim motors or stability augmentation systems. It's not like an airplane where the yoke will center due to weights and aerodynamics. There are no aerodynamic or center of gravity forces that cause a helicopter to level out in a hover. That is why all helicopters are defined as dynamically unstable, if you make a control input, the helicopter will diverge off in that direction at a greater amplitude as time passes. Even if I took a Hughes 300 for example, trimmed out perfectly in a hover, and started a sideways transition then let go of the cyclic, it would just roll into the transition direction, catch a skid and crash.

Some helicopters with stabilizer bars or paddles will have a tendency to level the disc, such as paddles on the hiller UH12, or the stabilizer bar and weights on the UH-1. Those designs are old school, and none are featured in ArmA. Even if there were aerodynamic forces trying to level the disc, it would resist because its basically a huge gyroscope.

Drag doesn't really have much of an influence at the lower airspeeds, and by your explanation, drag would influence the fuselage causing more drag on the fuselage than the rotor disc, which would cause it to roll even more.

[max power 21]

A slight bank would cause the helicopter to accelerate in the direction of the bank until its airspeed equalled the lateral airspeed of the thrust produced by the rotor disc. I think.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Well assuming there was enough altitude, and depending on the helicopter, if it was allowed to accelerate enough sideways, the vertical and horizontal stabilizers would help level and straighten it out, but would still crash without pilot input. Usually you don't feel any effect from the vertical or horizontal stabs until about 25 - 30 knots.

[Sosna 0]

It seems the point is being missed. It is not a physics issue as much as it is a controls issue.

I don't know if I can put it any more simply:

Quote[/b] ]Centering the stick behaves as "no input", rather than "center input". This makes it such that any cyclic movement has to be undone by the pilot in order to fly as intended.

For Example: If you bank while in forward flight and release the stick, you must then pull the stick in the opposite direction to halt banking input. If you do not, the game is instructed to continue the bank input indefinitely.

I can only judge from my experience with other sims. Since every one of which (including X-Plane) allows the cyclic to center, I am more inclined to trust their flight model than Arma's.

[max power 21]

It seems the point is being missed. It is not a physics issue as much as it is a controls issue.

I don't know if I can put it any more simply:

Quote[/b] ]Centering the stick behaves as "no input", rather than "center input". This makes it such that any cyclic movement has to be undone by the pilot in order to fly as intended.

For Example: If you bank while in forward flight and release the stick, you must then pull the stick in the opposite direction to halt banking input. If you do not, the game is instructed to continue the bank input indefinitely.

I can only judge from my experience with other sims. Since every one of which (including X-Plane) allows the cyclic to center, I am more inclined to trust their flight model than Arma's.

LeftskidLow is an experienced helicopter pilot, I believe.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Quote[/b] ]For Example: If you bank while in forward flight and release the stick, you must then pull the stick in the opposite direction to halt banking input. If you do not, the game is instructed to continue the bank input indefinitely.

Thats what happens when you bank in a helicopter. Think about it this way, positioning the cyclic 1 inch to the left will create more lift or the right half of the disc than the left. So as long as that cyclic displacement is to the left, it will continue to roll left. To stop the rolling moment you would need to have an equal amount of lift on the left and right half of the disc, so a right cyclic input would be needed until lift is equal on both sides. To stop the actual turn you would need to level the disc with the horizon by inputing even more right cyclic, now there would be more lift on the left side of the disc than the right. When the helicopter reaches a level attitude the cyclic would need to be again adjusted to a position where both sides of the disc are creating equal lift again.

[bubbashrimps 0]

I don't have any problems with heli controls. Sure, it was difficult before but now I learned it.

First you need a joystick. I have X52 Pro here.

Then you need to learn to keep an eye on the alt and speed. Don't push the stick too hard to get the speed. You will fly too fast, and when you are on your destination then you would need to pull your stick too hard which will : not only result you to lose your alt but also miss the landing point.

Use hover in cobra when you are hunting. Try to stay out of battlefield. Use it as a support artillery as long as you got hellfires

Rudders work at low speed. I use them after hitting hover on for minor changes.

Practice, practice and practice. Don't fly your transport choppers faster than 80 and combat choopers faster than 110 (unless you are over enemy forces and want to bug out)

Planes suck in ArmA, and I prefer to have more chopper types than planes

[Sosna 0]

Quote[/b] ]For Example: If you bank while in forward flight and release the stick, you must then pull the stick in the opposite direction to halt banking input. If you do not, the game is instructed to continue the bank input indefinitely.

Thats what happens when you bank in a helicopter. Think about it this way, positioning the cyclic 1 inch to the left will create more lift or the right half of the disc than the left. So as long as that cyclic displacement is to the left, it will continue to roll left. To stop the rolling moment you would need to have an equal amount of lift on the left and right half of the disc, so a right cyclic input would be needed until lift is equal on both sides. To stop the actual turn you would need to level the disc with the horizon by inputing even more right cyclic, now there would be more lift on the left side of the disc than the right. When the helicopter reaches a level attitude the cyclic would need to be again adjusted to a position where both sides of the disc are creating equal lift again.

Ok... So every single helicopter sim has done it wrong - most of which had actual pilot consultation during developement, and some of which had been praised by actual pilots for their accuracy.

I somehow doubt that. No offense to Arma devs, but I don't think they would pull off a more accurate flight model than dedicated flight sims - Nor do they need to, since Arma is a "Jack of all trades" game.

However, what is needed is cyclic inputs that share basic consistency with other - more accurate - flight sims.

A 5° bank (While moving at speed) in Arma will cause the helicopter to stay at 5° indefinitely and fly in a giant spiral forever. This is because Arma interprets the joystick/keys as having stayed in the 5° bank position, when the input was actually removed. This is the issue, and it has nothing to do with helicopter flight dynamics - which I'm well aware of.

I've done my best to diagnose the problem with Arma's FM. You're free to do so also, rather than criticize my diagnosis without even fully understanding it.

[Beagle 684]

And lastly, the rudder is too weak when moving at speed - I think this issue may be resolved though in the next patch since the problem is similar with planes.

Unfortunately not... I just checked this.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

No they haven't all done it wrong, well not completely, and you are getting actual pilot consultation right now. As far as basic cyclic movements to roll into and out of a turn in ArmA and X-plane, they are the same, I just tried it. When I roll into a bank and then relieve cyclic pressure from the bank, it just rolls more and more into the bank. And then I tried it in the airplane, yoke into the bank, relieve pressure, it just stays in the bank until I input opposite aileron. Maybe you did something to F up your controls.

What I don't understand is that you seem to you think the helicopter would level out from a bank without opposite input, why would that happen?

I criticize your diagnosis because it isn't correct, and I don't want to see the Devs make a change based off incorrect information.