why don't infantry shoot at helicopters?

[RaymondLu 0]

only AA soldiers and machinegunners fire at choppers, the others just run and hide, even the chopper is flying low and slow,or hovering.

how could they let such a big bird stay that way?

[ShrubMiK 0]

Perhpps its because trying to take on an armed helicopter with personal weapons is only likely to draw attention to themsleves and get them killed?

[troop 0]

And in addition, with infantry shooting at you as well

(as of 1.08, I feel like swiss cheese all too often;

now that the vehicles open fire on you so fiercly)

you could just scratch flying choppers in ArmA at all. (imo)

Right now, we are forced to readapt to real standoff tactics

with choppers, where pre-1.08, you could just happily zip

over some crowded battlefield while dodging some occasional

Shilka. Not anymore;..gets you killed in seconds.

Move from hide to hide, bob-up, shoot, hide again.

---

I really like it (now), much more challenging and rewarding;...

but also, there is an sour negative. You can just forget

about using AI teammates now.

While formerly they were unable to dodge Shilka fire,

its absolute certain death now. Not happy with that.

[celery 8]

Perhpps its because trying to take on an armed helicopter with personal weapons is only likely to draw attention to themsleves and get them killed?

I don't think the AI is that far-sighted (they shoot at BRDMs like no tomorrow), the whole squad should fire at a chopper when ordered to. Besides, in the latest version you can shoot a helicopter down with an angry look so they can definitely do damage with assault rifles.

[sander 14]

Hi,

This is due to a combination of factors. One of these is that in the config any weapon must be defined to target airborne targets or not. Not all weapons have that setting and the AI will therefore not use these to fire at targets in the air. Another factor to take into account is that the AI would make a decision to fire or not fire his weapon at a target depending on a number of considerations, including the damage that his weapon can inflict, the amount of armour of the target and the associated costs of the ammunition. This means that even if a rifle has been given the ability to fire at an aerial target in the config settigns, the AI may very well decide it is not worth bothering to do so because too little damage would be inflicted. Another factor is a gameplay decision: enabling all weapons to fire at aerial targets could have the likely consequence that an AI squad expends all its ammo in an attempt to down a helicopter (generally a higher value target than an infantryman in the config, so higher priority for AI targeting), leaving none for other targets. This could frustrate players, some of whom have voiced their discontent for instance at AT soldiers firing their precious projectiles at infantry rather than reserving these for armoured targets prior to AA 1.08. The current implementation is in my opinion a good compromise, with the ability of the machinegunners to fire at helicopters and riflemen conserving their ammunition for other targets.

Regards,

Sander

[RaymondLu 0]

they don't shoot even they are a large troop or the chopper is unarmed.

this is just ridiculous.

there are so many AI bugs in this game and some of them are so obvious(like path-finding, bridge-crossing...) but no much improvement have been made.

[RaymondLu 0]

AI is still AI. we can't expect that much.

[ijozic 9]

they don't shoot even they are a large troop or the chopper is unarmed.

this is just ridiculous.

He just explained it. If they would shoot automatically, they would probably expend all their ammo on some passing choppers and that would be very frustrating for you as their team leader.

[wamingo 1]

I'm in favour of randomness and variety so rather than seing AI always fire or never fire I'd say it be best if just happened occasionally. And it could be influenced by current orders +/- random crazy decisions.

I know mgunner can be very effective against air targets but generally my opinion is AI should not engage Air unless their leader tells them to - as, more often than not, it's pretty useless and just a way to give away your position.

On the the note of the difficulty of air vehicles, I'm happy that Shilkas are deadly now, because really, especially helicopters were way overpowered before. Cobra/Apache was a be-all/end-all weapon in ofp and its reign has finally come to and end. Please don't whine anymore about this.

[zyklone 1]

Is there any army in the world that doesn't tell their troops not to fire against moving air targets with anything except MGs or AA weapons?

[ShrubMiK 0]

"they don't shoot even they are a large troop or the chopper is unarmed."

I don't think there are many unarmed military helicopters are there though?

What would be nice is for you, as squad leader, to be able to override the AI decision...i.e. if you tell your men to target a helicopter, they will do so regardless of whether the AI thinks its a sensible decision or not. Is this the case? Or not?

[dreday 1]

Is there any army in the world that doesn't tell their troops not to fire against moving air targets with anything except MGs or AA weapons?

There are plenty... Not to mention the guerrilla forces that do it all the time.

Peace,

DreDay

[ShrubMiK 0]

And how many instances of helicopters actually being shot down "all the time" by small arms fire can you think of?

[celery 8]

And how many instances of helicopters actually being shot down "all the time" by small arms fire can you think of?

In Armed Assault there would be many if riflemen had the brains to shoot at the measly Littlebirds. A bullet doesn't change into a rubber slug if it's fired from an assault rifle and the machine gunners are already giving the squad's position away so what are the remaining reasons to not let soldiers shoot at choppers?

[zyklone 1]

And how many instances of helicopters actually being shot down "all the time" by small arms fire can you think of?

In Armed Assault there would be many if riflemen had the brains to shoot at the measly Littlebirds. A bullet doesn't change into a rubber slug if it's fired from an assault rifle and the machine gunners are already giving the squad's position away so what are the remaining reasons to not let soldiers shoot at choppers?

It's largely considered a waste of ammo and a big risk of friendly fire incidents.

It's extremely difficult to figure out the distance and where to aim against moving air targets. Pretty much the only way to do it is with tracers and even then it's not easy.

The reason MGs can be used is that they can sustain automatic fire and just put a stream bullets in the path of the chopper which it will run into, that's not possible with assault rifles.

In Armed Assault this would get a bit silly if all soldiers fired on choppers simply because they would not have any trouble at all to hit since predicting movement and judging distance is something the AI is near perfect at, humans however are not.

[Luciano 0]

There are enough choppers shut down in Iraq to prove that shooting down choppers with small arms is possible.

The reason why is because the AI is very simple. Your expecting the simple AI to do complex things. There needs to be lots of changes to the AI before they shoot down choppers with small arms.

You can easily shoot a littlebird down with a PKM, RPk, or even an AK. If your lucky, you can even shoot an Apache down that way.

You guys are making excuses to something that obviously has no excuse. Like I said, the AI needs much improvement to do that, and it wasn't worked on in that area. The only plausable excuses is that there's no time to add that and there are more important things.

[dreday 1]

And how many instances of helicopters actually being shot down "all the time" by small arms fire can you think of?

Plenty... There are multiple examples of helicopters being brought down by small arms fire in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Iraq.

What's more important is that the high density of fire from the small arms is likely to damage the helicopter, or at least to prevent it from fulfilling its mission even though it is likely to survive.

That's how things work in the real world. However, I do understand the argument of those who say that it would not be a good idea in ArmA.

Peace,

DreDay

[celery 8]

And how many instances of helicopters actually being shot down "all the time" by small arms fire can you think of?

In Armed Assault there would be many if riflemen had the brains to shoot at the measly Littlebirds. A bullet doesn't change into a rubber slug if it's fired from an assault rifle and the machine gunners are already giving the squad's position away so what are the remaining reasons to not let soldiers shoot at choppers?

It's largely considered a waste of ammo and a big risk of friendly fire incidents.

It's extremely difficult to figure out the distance and where to aim against moving air targets. Pretty much the only way to do it is with tracers and even then it's not easy.

The reason MGs can be used is that they can sustain automatic fire and just put a stream bullets in the path of the chopper which it will run into, that's not possible with assault rifles.

In Armed Assault this would get a bit silly if all soldiers fired on choppers simply because they would not have any trouble at all to hit since predicting movement and judging distance is something the AI is near perfect at, humans however are not.

What if an enemy helicopter is hovering in front of you, aligning for the kill? Do you curl into a ball or do you put a bullet in the pilot's head?

[zyklone 1]

What if an enemy helicopter is hovering in front of you, aligning for the kill? Do you curl into a ball or do you put a bullet in the pilot's head?

And how do you think this has anything to do with the discussion?

If you are a situation where a chopper is hovering in front of you at a range where you can get a reliable head shot then you could just as well run up to it and throw a rock in the rotor.

If you want to argue potential unlikely situations then this discussion will go on forever.

[celery 8]

What if an enemy helicopter is hovering in front of you, aligning for the kill? Do you curl into a ball or do you put a bullet in the pilot's head?

And how do you think this has anything to do with the discussion?

If you are a situation where a chopper is hovering in front of you at a range where you can get a reliable head shot then you could just as well run up to it and throw a rock in the rotor.

If you want to argue potential unlikely situations then this discussion will go on forever.

It has everything to do with the discussion. The AI doesn't do a thing about any choppers even to save their virtual butts unless they have a machine gun at hand. When ordered to attack, they just aim at the chopper (which is hovering right in front of the squad) and say "NEGATIVE". The MG man shoots at the chopper even without asking. It's not even unlikely to have close encounters with a helicopter in maps where the enemy has them. And about the rock argument, there are no rocks to throw in Armed Assault and if soldiers would shoot only when a hit is 100% probable, world war one would still be raging on.

I don't mind having an endless discussion, but do you want to keep making endless excuses to defend such an obvious limitation?

[zyklone 1]

I don't mind having an endless discussion, but do you want to keep making endless excuses to defend such an obvious limitation?

There are thousands of limitations in Armed Assault.

There are important problems oversights and then silly stuff. This one of the silly ones.

It's even easily fixable with an addon if anyone with enough skills sees it as a problem.

[celery 8]

I don't mind having an endless discussion, but do you want to keep making endless excuses to defend such an obvious limitation?

There are thousands of limitations in Armed Assault.

There are important problems oversights and then silly stuff. This one of the silly ones.

It's even easily fixable with an addon if anyone with enough skills sees it as a problem.

And that is excuse enough not to talk about it at all and leave it unfixed?

Hey, let's apply that logic to all limitations, I bet the next version will be super.

[kocrachon 2]

There are enough choppers shut down in Iraq to prove that shooting down choppers with small arms is possible.

The reason why is because the AI is very simple. Your expecting the simple AI to do complex things. There needs to be lots of changes to the AI before they shoot down choppers with small arms.

You can easily shoot a littlebird down with a PKM, RPk, or even an AK. If your lucky, you can even shoot an Apache down that way.

You guys are making excuses to something that obviously has no excuse. Like I said, the AI needs much improvement to do that, and it wasn't worked on in that area. The only plausable excuses is that there's no time to add that and there are more important things.

Thats very irrelevant. Do you know how many sorties helicopters fly? Let alone how many take small arms fire and actually go down? I can tell you now it is less than 1%. I flew in Blackhawks all the time that took small arm fire, worst we would see is maybe a little bit of smoke.

And if you watch most news feed of Helicopters going down in Iraq, its because now some one (Most likely Iran) Has supplied the Insurgents with Shoulder Mounted anti air missiles. Rarely do helicopters go down to a few rounds of 7.62 MM. And ever since the military instituted its new flight paths, where helicopters no longer fly straight paths, there have been even less shot down to small arms fire.

Just because you hear once in a while of helicopters going down to small arms fire, doesn't mean it happens often. Its blown out of proportion. There are literally hundreds to almost thousands of sorties a day by helicopters. And rarely is one shot down.

And as for the, how many armys are told not to shoot at helicopters. The U.S. Military. Unless it is all you got, and you are about to be engaged, you don't waste ammo shooting at a helicopter. In fact you are suppose to go for cover, not sit their and shoot at it while it prepares to strafe you. Each unit is given some form of AA when it comes to being at war with a country who has air assets. In fact even some units in Iraq right now have AA equipment, not alot, but most. Such as most of the 1st Calvary, the 101st, the 82nd, and so forth.

Plus as stated, the Helicopters in this game are already pretty much flying paper cups, and with the complete idioticness of the AI in the aircraft, it would waste time, seeing as the AI in the game are blind and can't see unless they are 100 meters away or have some sort of spotter.

I pretty much refuse to put aircraft in my missions anymore because they die too easy. I don't even do blackhawk insertions into towns.

Actually, if you want a good Idea of how sturdy a helicopter is, Watch Blackhawk Down. You will notice that the only way they got the Blackhawk to smoke is by shooting down on it and hitting the engines. But when hitting the bottom of the aircraft the bullets did jack squat.

Also, I would be OK with the AI shooting at the Helicopter if they toned down the Accuracy of the AI. the AI are overly accurate in this game and need to add some sort of deviation. No man is that perfect to follow a helicopter flying forward at full speed and hit it as often as the MG do. Especially doing it while standing like the AI does. Do you know how hard it is to hold a 7.62 MG up and shooting constantly like that? Normally that specific rifle has to be shot prone. Considering how Heavy it is and how much recoil it provides. Even the M240 on the US side is shot at the prone position if fired for prolonged time. Only shot in burst while standing.

So before fixing the AI not engaging, fix the AI so they have more realistic human accuracy and realistic human vision. Unlike the BS I experience when they shoot me through the floors of the Hotels.

[simba 0]

Luciano:

Quote[/b] ]The reason why is because the AI is very simple.

Your expecting the simple AI to do complex things. There needs to be lots of changes to the AI before they shoot down choppers with small arms.

normal soldiers engaging air targets was possible in ofp and probably in arma too.

Luciano is hired by codemasters it's a certainty !

[NoRailgunner 0]

why don't infantry shoot at helicopters?

They shoot with MG's... with other small arms = waste of ammo!

@Luciano

Quote[/b] ]You can easily shoot a littlebird down with a PKM, RPk, or even an AK. If your lucky, you can even shoot an Apache down that way.

You have to say -> when helicopters hovering and not in combat or in trouble with engines, mechanical or electrical defects! Helicopters fly with approx 180-200km/h. Guess how much time you have to shoot down helicopter and before pilot start evasive maneuver + countermeasures