Helicopter CG

[Maddmatt 1]

...

Quote[/b] ]Fixed: Helicopter center of rotation is now center of mass, not rotor mast.

source

@vortex3d:

Does this means we have good new for 1.08?

edit: can't wait to hear the Veterans (real life pilots) opinion about this subject.

That's in the 1.07beta too. Chopper control feels different. I like it, but I'm no expert. Then again most of the people who complain are far from experts anyway

[BroK3n 0]

Wasnt the CG of choppers lowered to the centre of it in 1.07 beta? The CG of a vehicle can be identified by going in third peron view and circling the perspective around it... it'll be fixed onto the CG.

[bravo 6 0]

1.07+ still have a strange feeling IMO.

but i would wait for others opinion.

[maddogx 13]

1.07+ still have a strange feeling IMO.

but i would wait for others opinion.

Flying in 1.07b feels a lot better to me. I'm no pilot but the flight model just feels a lot more natural with the CG fixed.

[Kamarov 0]

I'm not a real pilot, but after flying enough times in many different simulators there is only one thing that really bothers me about the flight model in Armed Assault:

I can deal with the high CoG, I can deal with no accurate gauges (or almost no gauges, like in the AH1), I can even deal with a horrible field of view; but what annoys me most of all the that rudder pedals do just about nothing after 100mph.  This isn't even just on helicopters it's on planes too...

From all my stick time in simulators I have come to expect that when I push the rudder all the way to one direction that I'll get at least some slip from the plane (or helicopter), but in ArmA there's either nothing or everything.  I don't think it's too much to ask that we get all the control surfaces working in a realistic manner...

When I make a straffing run, I instictively expect to be able to use the rudder pedals to make corrections to my flight path so I can put ordinance on target.  With the way the system works now it's completely hit-or-miss.  Don't assume I don't love flying in ArmA, I do, but I really feel that the current flight model detracts from gameplay by making any fast, controlled flight extremely difficult.

[dm 9]

I'm not a real pilot, but after flying enough times in many different simulators there is only one thing that really bothers me about the flight model in Armed Assault:

I can deal with the high CoG, I can deal with no accurate gauges (or almost no gauges, like in the AH1), I can even deal with a horrible field of view; but what annoys me most of all the that rudder pedals do just about nothing after 100mph. This isn't even just on helicopters it's on planes too...

From all my stick time in simulators I have come to expect that when I push the rudder all the way to one direction that I'll get at least some slip from the plane (or helicopter), but in ArmA there's either nothing or everything. I don't think it's too much to ask that we get all the control surfaces working in a realistic manner...

When I make a straffing run, I instictively expect to be able to use the rudder pedals to make corrections to my flight path so I can put ordinance on target. With the way the system works now it's completely hit-or-miss. Don't assume I don't love flying in ArmA, I do, but I really feel that the current flight model detracts from gameplay by making any fast, controlled flight extremely difficult.

Have to agree, this is my only major gripe with the system too.

[anoik 0]

Quote[/b] ]- Fixed: Increased rudder authority for airplanes, improved AI using rudder while engaging.

Source

[Kamarov 0]

Quote[/b] ]- Fixed: Increased rudder authority for airplanes, improved AI using rudder while engaging.

Source

Is that fix also in the 1.07b or just in 1.08?  And, if it is in 1.07b, does that change in authority also affect helicopters?

[dm 9]

Quote[/b] ]- Fixed: Increased rudder authority for airplanes, improved AI using rudder while engaging.

Source

If that includes helicopters under the all encompassing term "airplanes" (what a horrible Americanism too btw ) then we're good to go

[Kamarov 0]

Quote[/b] ]- Fixed: Increased rudder authority for airplanes, improved AI using rudder while engaging.

Source

If that includes helicopters under the all encompassing term "airplanes" (what a horrible Americanism too btw ) then we're good to go

Yeah, I'm American and I was thinking the same thing after I read that report: "Is that the specific or the vague form of the word?"

Sometimes Americanisms do hurt communication...

[suma 8]

Notice something odd? the chopper swivels from a pivot located above the main rotors. This pivot is supposed to be the Center Of Gravity (CG). I fly choppers in real life and I have never seen the CG there, LOL.

There are several things mixed together here:

1) helicopters in ArmA have CG where you would expect it, however their center of rotation (CR) is not the CG

2) the perceived CR in the game depends mostly on which point on the helicopter is the camera fixed to

2) this was done because one designer here convinced me using some Apache videos that helicopters in real life rotate around a different point than a CG. Because of this, we have moved both CR and camera focus point closer to the rotor pivot

3) such thing is by no means such as nonsense as elementary physics would tell, as there are significant gyroscopic forces acting when helicopter is rotating, therefore the CG need not be equal to CR

4) and last, this is fixed for 1.08 patch, which I hope will make everyone happy again

[Journeyman 0]

We all love you Suma! Knowing this and merely mentioning the 1.08 patch just makes me wanna cry! Finally I will be able to enjoy ArmA again!

Sorry too much vodka!!

[bravo 6 0]

which I hope will make everyone happy again

i just hope to be more realistic and close to the real feeling. Thats all.

[Average Joe 0]

We've always been happy Suma, we've just got a funny way of showing it thats all

[Tankbuster 1733]

But why move the camera focus point to the rotor hub too? I had lots of fun making movies in OFP when the camera focus point was somewhere in the middle of the aircraft.

Now, we can't get good shots of the crew, the windshield or the body of the aircraft. In fact, all we can get is good closeups of the rotor hub.

[frederf 0]

Notice something odd? the chopper swivels from a pivot located above the main rotors. This pivot is supposed to be the Center Of Gravity (CG). I fly choppers in real life and I have never seen the CG there, LOL.

There are several things mixed together here:

1) helicopters in ArmA have CG where you would expect it, however their center of rotation (CR) is not the CG

2) the perceived CR in the game depends mostly on which point on the helicopter is the camera fixed to

2) this was done because one designer here convinced me using some Apache videos that helicopters in real life rotate around a different point than a CG. Because of this, we have moved both CR and camera focus point closer to the rotor pivot

3) such thing is by no means such as nonsense as elementary physics would tell, as there are significant gyroscopic forces acting when helicopter is rotating, therefore the CG need not be equal to CR

4) and last, this is fixed for 1.08 patch, which I hope will make everyone happy again

Thank you for your breath of sanity that I tried to expound on on page 3 but no one listened.

The flight model might not be 100% correct but this whiny, misinformed CG argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

I'm not a real pilot, but after flying enough times in many different simulators there is only one thing that really bothers me about the flight model in Armed Assault:

I can deal with the high CoG, I can deal with no accurate gauges (or almost no gauges, like in the AH1), I can even deal with a horrible field of view; but what annoys me most of all the that rudder pedals do just about nothing after 100mph. This isn't even just on helicopters it's on planes too...

From all my stick time in simulators I have come to expect that when I push the rudder all the way to one direction that I'll get at least some slip from the plane (or helicopter), but in ArmA there's either nothing or everything. I don't think it's too much to ask that we get all the control surfaces working in a realistic manner...

When I make a straffing run, I instictively expect to be able to use the rudder pedals to make corrections to my flight path so I can put ordinance on target. With the way the system works now it's completely hit-or-miss. Don't assume I don't love flying in ArmA, I do, but I really feel that the current flight model detracts from gameplay by making any fast, controlled flight extremely difficult.

Have to agree, this is my only major gripe with the system too.

If this was also fixed in helicopters then I'll be one happy ArmA Pilot. This is also a major Gripe of mine with ArmA.

[Maddmatt 1]

But why move the camera focus point to the rotor hub too? I had lots of fun making movies in OFP when the camera focus point was somewhere in the middle of the aircraft.

Now, we can't get good shots of the crew, the windshield or the body of the aircraft. In fact, all we can get is good closeups of the rotor hub.

If you want to make proper cutscenes then you need to use a scripted camera. I would rather have a better view of the environment than have it blocked by the aircraft.

Anyway I'm looking forward to more flying in 1.08

I really hope to have 1.08 today

[Tankbuster 1733]

I don't *need* to use a scripted camera, nor am I using it for cutscenes.

The camera focus being so high up on the aircraft makes no sense. Why would it be there when it wasn't before?

[ducttape83 0]

Because the focus is the center of gravity? I thought this was discussed in this tread already. The real question should be "Why does the focus have to be the CoG?" Maybe so that it's easier for a pilot to fly from 3rd person, without having to have the aircraft obstruct his view? Either way, it seems like a rather trivial concern.

[Tankbuster 1733]

Because the focus is the center of gravity? I thought this was discussed in this tread already. The real question should be "Why does the focus have to be the CoG?" Maybe so that it's easier for a pilot to fly from 3rd person, without having to have the aircraft obstruct his view? Either way, it seems like a rather trivial concern.

That it's trivial is your opinion. Triviality is in the eye of the beholder.

You're right of course. The question is "Why does the focus have to be the CoG?" I'm suppose it is easier for the pilot flying 3rd person perspective if less of the view is taken up with helicopter. That's a good answer. It's less use to those of us who use this view for movie making.

[Maddmatt 1]

Because the focus is the center of gravity? I thought this was discussed in this tread already. The real question should be "Why does the focus have to be the CoG?" Maybe so that it's easier for a pilot to fly from 3rd person, without having to have the aircraft obstruct his view? Either way, it seems like a rather trivial concern.

That it's trivial is your opinion. Triviality is in the eye of the beholder.

You're right of course. The question is "Why does the focus have to be the CoG?" I'm suppose it is easier for the pilot flying 3rd person perspective if less of the view is taken up with helicopter. That's a good answer. It's less use to those of us who use this view for movie making.

As I already said, if you want to do film making then use a scripted camera. 3rd person view isn't made for film making, it's made for playing the game. You shouldn't be using that view for movie making, how can you make a decent movie just using 3rd person view?

[Tankbuster 1733]

You shouldn't be using that view for movie making, how can you make a decent movie just using 3rd person view?

Because I have done.

[kestrel7e7 0]

1) helicopters in ArmA have CG where you would expect it, however their center of rotation (CR) is not the CG

2) this was done because one designer here convinced me using some Apache videos that helicopters in real life rotate around a different point than a CG. Because of this, we have moved both CR and camera focus point closer to the rotor pivot

3) such thing is by no means such as nonsense as elementary physics would tell, as there are significant gyroscopic forces acting when helicopter is rotating, therefore the CG need not be equal to CR

1) You're kidding right? You guys REALLY need a 3rd party physics engine because there's no way you can make your own given your lack of understanding of first principles, perhaps this explains why the OFP/ArmA physics engine is the way it is.

2) I saw a video of a plane circling and its center of rotation was 500m away from its fuselage, therefore all forces must be applied wrt this location...  :P

But seriously, trying to analyze aircraft motion dynamics from a video is difficult, at best, because it lacks a good frame of reference and you could be deceived by optical illusions of perspective, depth etc.

3) "If the object is unconfined and the force is applied at some distance from the center of gravity, the object both translates and rotates about the center of gravity."

http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/torque.html

Gyroscopic forces from the rotors act wrt their pivots which in turn act wrt the center of gravity about which the aircraft rotates when it is unconstrained. Since aircraft are mostly unconstrained (external aerodynamic forces, in the form of drag,  are only applied in the opposite direction of motion and simply can't shift the center of rotation a significant amount) a good approximation, for a GAME, would be to make CG=CR.

But no, BIS has to put the CR OUTSIDE the model of the aircraft !!!!!!. I pity the poor ArmA helicopter passengers, swinging around beneath the rotors like a pendulum and getting air-sick. Thank God game developers aren't responsible for designing things that matter!

[ManDay 0]

<ot>

You are complaining about the realism of the ArmA avionics. You are talking about changing the collective and all that.

I dont fly Helicopter in reallife (yet) but I always do a bit of flightsimming so I know how to fly a heli theoretically.

But in ArmA you havnt got any control over the c-pitch. Only over the engines thrust.

So what do you claim as there is not a bit of realism in the arma flight model?

</ot>