Quantum physics says goodbye to reality

[walker 0]

Hi all

It has been postulated for millenia that life is not real. That is a key tenet of Buddhism and the philosophical question "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?", is an old one.

It may well be that Life is but a game.

At least according to some Austrian Physicists:

Quote[/b] ]Quantum physics says goodbye to reality

20 April 2007

Some physicists are uncomfortable with the idea that all individual quantum events are innately random. This is why many have proposed more complete theories, which suggest that events are at least partially governed by extra "hidden variables". Now physicists from Austria claim to have performed an experiment that rules out a broad class of hidden-variables theories that focus on realism -- giving the uneasy consequence that reality does not exist when we are not observing it (Nature 446 871).

Some 40 years ago the physicist John Bell predicted that many hidden-variables theories would be ruled out if a certain experimental inequality were violated – known as "Bell's inequality". In his thought experiment, a source fires entangled pairs of linearly-polarized photons in opposite directions towards two polarizers, which can be changed in orientation. Quantum mechanics says that there should be a high correlation between results at the polarizers because the photons instantaneously "decide" together which polarization to assume at the moment of measurement, even though they are separated in space. Hidden variables, however, says that such instantaneous decisions are not necessary, because the same strong correlation could be achieved if the photons were somehow informed of the orientation of the polarizers beforehand.

Bell's trick, therefore, was to decide how to orient the polarizers only after the photons have left the source. If hidden variables did exist, they would be unable to know the orientation, and so the results would only be correlated half of the time. On the other hand, if quantum mechanics was right, the results would be much more correlated – in other words, Bell's inequality would be violated.

Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics...

Follow link for the full story

http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/11/4/14/1

There is an interesting result of such a physics finding.

It is the same as the little tricks you do to reduce CPU load in a game or simulation. By not processing everything from the game world that is not perceived by a player observer. It is called LODing (Level Of Detail).

If you play ArmA you are playing with this all the time.

Some LODing is loss-less such as textures that are brought back in when you see a tank again, as your system reloads the LODs at each visual range they are identical to the last time you saw them.

Replay a mission though and the results are lossy. You never get the same game twice. Despite all the way-points and all the same conditions it will change due to the random behaviour built in to the AI; instead of going west round the destroyed tank blocking the road the AI convoy may choose to retreat, or go east. It is random in the same way that quanta are. The events unlike the tank texture are rebuilt anew each time scenario is replayed.

The fact that the universes physics is built on the same principles as are used to make a simulation more efficient is very interesting. I bet all the Buddhists are saying I told you so with a smug look on their faces.

Kind Regards walker

[wex-q 0]

I belive that we live our lifes how we choose to live them.

If you want to belive that reality does not exist, and we are not watching it, sure go ahead.

If you want to belive that a falling tree does not make a sound, when no one is around to hear it, sure go ahead here to.

I just think that you should make something good out of your life, but what that good thing is, is ofcourse up to you...

[TheElite 0]

I indeed does seem to be apt in a gaming forum .

Quote[/b] ]However, Alain Aspect, a physicist who performed the first Bell-type experiment in the 1980s, thinks the team's philosophical conclusions are subjective. "There are other types of non-local models that are not addressed by either Leggett's inequalities or the experiment," he said. "But I rather share the view that such debates, and accompanying experiments such as those by [the Austrian team], allow us to look deeper into the mysteries of quantum mechanics."

just like we have mods and addons and enhancements ?

lol nice find i always like to see how the popoffs think translated to real understandable jargon.

next week there going to toss a 50 centavos coin ,then dig a hole and see what happens to the ratio.

[walker 0]

Hi TheElite

Maybe the Physicists need to look at how modern games and simulation work in order to come up with tests for quantum reality and maybe Game Devs need to look at how the universe refines reality to make it more efficient so they can make better games.

Shades of the Matrix eh?

Kind Regards walker

[Heatseeker 0]

Leave a sound recorder in the forest near the soon to be falling tree, then after it falls go retrieve the recorder and see if it recorded any sound . Simplistic i know... but my point is that a great deal of time is wasted going nowhere lol.

I can see the relation but LOD is not a bad theory, just something necessary to make games like Arma work (efficiently).

If im not near that tree or bush it doesnt have to 'wave'.

Arma is a great tech achievement .

[Journeyman 0]

Reality is a representation of our brain about what we see/hear/smell/remember etc. and we are limited in our senses to fully understand the workings of the universe! Our brains have only evolved to cope with the immediate three-dimensional environments that we live in and all of our science is based around this. If you move outside of this environment i.e. go into quantum physics or go the other way and start studying the vastness of space the science that explains most things on earth somehow doesn't work!

In our science everything has a beginning and an ending. Everything has boundaries and can be measured. In quantum physics as in astronomy however, these things fail to make sense as there are can be no boundaries, or if there are what leis beyond and so on!

It's best to just not try and think too much about it, as it will 'do your head in'! Like I said before our brains have not evolved to cope with events which occur outside of our immediate three dimensional environment, so trying to solve problems in quantum physics as with the universe will lead us nowhere but mental!

The answer to 'everything' that Steven Hawkins has been working on since his school days is to be found in the 'collective conscience' of the universe and that we might all only understand when we are gone! We all access this 'collective conscience' sometimes and dowsers and psychics can do it better than others!

My advice is to live your life as you see it and make the most of everything you have whether it is 'real' or not!  

[AWDrift 0]

It is pretty amazing that humans are using something so similiar to create our own small virtual universes.

[walker 0]

Hi AWDrift

That is the very reason I framed the post in that way.

In psychology and sociology the sciences of chaos theory and simulation has allowed us to understand human structures in way never before possible. Simulation has shone a light on this form of reality allowing us to understand it.

In simulating the infinite which we attempt to do games like ArmA we must compress reality, maybe the same underlying structures are fractal like reflected in the rest of the universe.

Kind Regards walker

[Journeyman 0]

In psychology and sociology the sciences of chaos theory and simulation has allowed us to understand human structures in way never before possible. Simulation has shone a light on this form of reality allowing us to understand it.

One thing I've noticed is that playing PC games and simulations certainly makes you see things in a different light and I've often noticed things IRL that i took for granted previously...  Perspectives, shadows, reflections etc.  

Maybe PC games and simulations are all part of the concept of reality though, helping us to interact IRL just as playing does with animals!  

[Spokesperson 0]

No, if nobody is nearby a falling tree it won't sound as there are no ears/brains nearby. Air-waves turn into sound when they get to ears and then brains only, senses are required. No brains nearby equals no sound!

Sure there'll be air/sound waves, but it won't sound.

[wex-q 0]

Well, you are right, but to refrase it, airwaves are never sound, just vibrations in the air, the molecules moving around.

It's when those molecules hit our eardrum, and the eardrum starts to vibrate, sending the frequency through parts in our ear, and then interpret by our brains.

But, sound could be regarded as non-existant, since if we didn't have the right parts in our ears, we wouldn't hear anything, therefore, no sound.

But, Red kite said something really good

Quote[/b] ]Reality is a representation of our brain about what we see/hear/smell/remember etc. and we are limited in our senses to fully understand the workings of the universe!

I think that is the closest thing you can get to an explanation of anything actually.

If we were more developed we would probably be able to, as Red kite said, fully understand.

See an example, time and room.

Time is simply something that we came up with to keep track of the light and darkness of a day, and be able to sort our living.

We would manage without time, but without time, room would be chaos.

And if room is chaos, it would probably f-up totally, and without any room left, there is no need for time.

Right?

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

@ wex-q: Space may not change but time goes by continuously - there is no stopping it. Someone may one day be able to travel so fast as to make time irrelevant with regards to space, because for now it always takes time to get from point A to point B, but time will still always go forward in a continuous, unstoppable fashion.

@ Spokesperson: If there is a sound-recording device to capture sound then it will capture sound - unless you'll say that it isn't sound that it captures until someone hears it. Then again, try going into space with a lot of people - you won't be hearing any sound even if you're shouting in your oxygen bubble - the person in the oxygen bubble next to you, separated from yours by vacuum won't hear a thing! So, it takes more than ears and brains for there to be sound...

[maxqubit 1]

You did not read this post

[Infam0us 10]

Life is short ... so make the most of it (By playing ArmA ofc )

[Spokesperson 0]

We're talking about forests not space. The sound recorder doesn't capture sound. It captures sound-waves.

[Journeyman 0]

BUZZARD @ April 30 2007,12:49)]@ wex-q: Space may not change but time goes by continuously - there is no stopping it. Someone may one day be able to travel so fast as to make time irrelevant with regards to space, because for now it always takes time to get from point A to point B, but time will still always go forward in a continuous, unstoppable fashion.

No one yet understands time or how it progresses whether linear or in stages. The three interconnecting elements of the universe that are currently the most baffling to scientists are space, time and gravity. So far we know that gravity can distort space and time for instance! All three concepts are very difficult for us to understand. Time for instance is something we just take for granted and we refer to it all the TIME! But if you stop and think about it you realize just how weird it really is.

For instance time goes by more quickly for some than for others. The older you are the quicker it goes and if you are a child time goes by slowly. For insects and small animals time flies by in comparison to us. Just look at their life expectancy and the speed in which they can move! If you wait for something to happen like a kettle to boil it takes forever, but go and have a crap while your waiting and the bloody thing is boiling in no time! So time is just an interval between events that can pass by at seemingly different rates.

Einstein’s theory of relativity states that time also goes by at different rates when we travel as opposed to being stationary. But the earth is spinning too so there are many different rates of time all taking their own time! Gravity can distort time too and make it pass at a different rate. This has been shown by the effect of black holes on the speed of light from know stars where space is also reported to be distorted. So what is space? Space is an area around you but can you really define it? How does time affect this space? Can you measure space?

And finally gravity! WTF is this? You see no scientist can properly say what it is! Sure everyone will tell you what it does but how the F does it work? What is this invisible force that keeps everything on our planet and pulls on other planets and can distort space and time? If only we knew what it was we could recreate it and use it in favour of wings! It has also now been discovered that the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing rate so there goes the big bang theory in favour of another invisible force that is acting to repel everything rather than attract it!

There was a TV program a while ago that was very interesting and it tried to calculate the chances of all the forces of the universe and in quantum physics having the exact proportions and values in terms of attracting/repelling etc for the whole system to work as it does and eventually support life. The findings suggested something like one in 10,000 or more would be the case for things to just happen as they are! And should any of those forces have even slightly different values then the universe would never exist in the way that it does in order to sustain life etc. .... So the big question is:  ... Is it just a coincidence or is there some superior intelligence gone into all of this and what does that make us? ….. An experiment in some super simulation maybe!  

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

BUZZARD @ April 30 2007,12:49)]@ wex-q: Space may not change but time goes by continuously - there is no stopping it. Someone may one day be able to travel so fast as to make time irrelevant with regards to space, because for now it always takes time to get from point A to point B, but time will still always go forward in a continuous, unstoppable fashion.

No one yet understands time or how it progresses whether linear or in stages. The three interconnecting elements of the universe that are currently the most baffling to scientists are space, time and gravity. So far we know that gravity can distort space and time for instance! All three concepts are very difficult for us to understand. Time for instance is something we just take for granted and we refer to it all the TIME! But if you stop and think about it you realize just how weird it really is.

For instance time goes by more quickly for some than for others. The older you are the quicker it goes and if you are a child time goes by slowly. For insects and small animals time flies by in comparison to us. Just look at their life expectancy and the speed in which they can move! If you wait for something to happen like a kettle to boil it takes forever, but go and have a crap while your waiting and the bloody thing is boiling in no time! So time is just an interval between events that can pass by at seemingly different rates.

Einstein’s theory of relativity states that time also goes by at different rates when we travel as opposed to being stationary. But the earth is spinning too so there are many different rates of time all taking their own time! Gravity can distort time too and make it pass at a different rate. This has been shown by the effect of black holes on the speed of light from know stars where space is also reported to be distorted. So what is space? Space is an area around you but can you really define it? How does time affect this space? Can you measure space?

And finally gravity! WTF is this? You see no scientist can properly say what it is! Sure everyone will tell you what it does but how the F does it work? What is this invisible force that keeps everything on our planet and pulls on other planets and can distort space and time? If only we knew what it was we could recreate it and use it in favour of wings! It has also now been discovered that the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing rate so there goes the big bang theory in favour of another invisible force that is acting to repel everything rather than attract it!

There was a TV program a while ago that was very interesting and it tried to calculate the chances of all the forces of the universe and in quantum physics having the exact proportions and values in terms of attracting/repelling etc for the whole system to work as it does and eventually support life. The findings suggested something like one in 10,000 or more would be the case for things to just happen as they are! And should any of those forces have even slightly different values then the universe would never exist in the way that it does in order to sustain life etc. .... So the big question is: ... Is it just a coincidence or is there some superior intelligence gone into all of this and what does that make us? ….. An experiment in some super simulation maybe!

Lots of theories tries to explain all these 'phanomenons' more or less successful. I believe it is extremely exciting to read and learn about the universe. I am also aware that we will never be able to fully (or half) understand how things are put together.

As youself say, what is time?! Well, for some it is a simple constant (naturally, since that is how we experience it), but if it in reality is something that is relative to velocity and matter - what drives it?!

And IS it really possible to slow time down? If it isn't a constant but a mere illusion of processes - then it is possible to slow the processes down, but not the time. For instance - the classical example of a rocket flying faster than light - he will in theory be able to see his own departure in his rearmirror - but time for people back on earth is still the same - so in theory, it is only the local processes of the spaceship and everything that it contains that is slowed down - what a lonely process.

Another aspect, as you bring up yaself - if everything has matter as our logic tells us - how does space keep expanding at an incriesing speed? It is simply accelerating. This is further weird because matter attracts matter - which means that the expansion after the big bang should be slowing down.

But like everything else, there is theory (which is quite mature nowadays = somewhat proven in testing) - antimatter.

Every piece of matter have a contracounting antimatter - with the same mass as it's matter, but with an opposite quantum number (charge). This explains why space (which also is matter) keeps accelerating - hence - everything runs towards chaos.

Some people even believe that this acceleration (and the energy created by it), is the whole or partly the cause of time. New study shows btw. that the acceleration is slowing down, and have been since the dawn of time. What happends when the acceleration hits zero we don't know .

An answer to the 'could there be a major cause of things'?

Well - I would say I don't believe there are any intelligent design behind our world. It is truely coincidences. It is controlled by many forces (for us known as laws of nature), and we do not know much about these laws (as there are bound to be many more we know nothing about).

That it is lucky that we are here, alive and kicking. Well, perhaps we can all agree on that, but how many tries have we had? The big bang theory tells us, that the universe will eventually collaps into the same form as it was pre-big bang, and maybe it will simply explode again?

I wonder how many times it have done that? Infinite? That would make sense - why would this be the only time this universe have existed - and why would this be the only universe existing now? (I'm not talking about parallel universes). As time is relative - maybe the explosion/expansion followed by the implosion of the universe simply a heartbeat of an organism we all call the world.

But - as an answer to #0.

Live life to it's fullest, we will never be able to figure it all out anyway . And if there is an afterlife (which I do not think so - as we are nothing more than a glass of luckily mixed chemicals), then we will figure it out eventually anyway

[da12thMonkey 1943]

But like everything else, there is theory (which is quite mature nowadays = somewhat proven in testing) - antimatter.

Every piece of matter have a contracounting antimatter - with the same mass as it's matter, but with an opposite quantum number (charge). This explains why space (which also is matter) keeps accelerating - hence - everything runs towards chaos.

Some people even believe that this acceleration (and the energy created by it), is the whole or partly the cause of time. New study shows btw. that the acceleration is slowing down, and have been since the dawn of time. What happends when the acceleration hits zero we don't know .

I'm afraid that the idea that accelerated expansion of the universe is generated by antimatter isn't widely favoured.

There is no gravitational repulsion between matter and antimatter. As you said the only difference between an antimatter particle and its material partner is its charge, both particles have mass and therefore attract each other. The annihilation of matter-antimatter pairs when they make contact is also insufficient to cause the acceleration of the universe, since it is simply the energy that was used in creating the particles in the first place. The energy released in these annihilations is also in the form of electromagnetic photons and would therefore be measurable. However, what is widely regarded as powering the accelerated expansion of the universe; so-called dark energy isn't currently measurable, and we can only hypothesise its nature from observing its effects.

[Journeyman 0]

The big bang theory tells us, that the universe will eventually collaps into the same form as it was pre-big bang, and maybe it will simply explode again?

I wonder how many times it have done that? Infinite? That would make sense - why would this be the only time this universe have existed

The Big Bang theory is but a theory and more recent studies (as I mentioned) suggest that the universe is actually accelerating rather than slowing down. This goes against the Big Bang theory and suggests that there are other forces acting to 'repel' as I said rather than just the affects of an initial 'explosion'. Does space itself have gravity? This has been raised too as there is apparently more to space than previously thought. Can space be defined as part of the universe where it goes beyond the furthest galaxies? If so then the universe is infinite and would have existed infinitely also, long before any supposed Big Bang as the stars/galaxies would have needed this space to expand into!

So how do we comprehend something that is infinite? This is the problem with our science, as it cannot cope with this scenario. But how else can the universe be? If it has an end what lies beyond that end? The same thing applies to time, how can there have been a beginning? What happened before the beginning? How long would a beginning take to start? The same goes for quantum physics and what can the smallest thing be in this case? A neutron? An electron? But hang on what if you go deeper into that electron/neutron, divide it by two then again divide that half by two and so on! In theory you could go on forever same as going out into space!

The latest attempt to explain infinite space and time is to suggest that somehow space and time is curved and will eventually come back around on itself like a big circle! An interesting idea! The thought maybe that if you just carried on into the vastness of space you would eventually come back on yourself! Alternatively if you were to keep reducing the size of the universe you would eventually appear out of an electron and start all over! So could time come around on itself too! The problem with this theory though is in its attempt to explain infinity it makes things finite and this is something of a contradiction in itself! Why only this size? Why only this long? What’s beyond that?

EDIT: Yep @da12thMonkey, the 'dark energy' is what I was thinking of but couldn't remember what this 'new' force had been labelled!

[maxqubit 1]

You still need to check it YOURSELF. If you put a soundrecorder or camera it only makes thing worse, because if you don't check it YOURSELF you can't be sure, never ever:) Example: How would you be 100% sure nobody messed with the recording device while you were gone? Perhaps you'd say 'Hey, that is getting pretty paranoid' And i would say, precisely! You'd need a healthy degree of paranoia to come to terms with this deep philosophical subject.

You don't want anybody/thing telling you what to believe, You'd want to SEE IT FOR YOURSELF:) It is the only way.

... and about this TIME thingy ... well, that is very simple. There is no such thing as TIME, what we think of as time is in fact the variation of things. Time has no meaning when things stay the same (compare a video and a picture, if there was 0% variation in the video you can not distinguish the two) but as soon as there is variation there is time ... You could ask 'but what brings about this variation?' ... well it is inevitable.

Suppose you got this sea which is completely flat ... the ONLY things which now can/will happen is a wave (and with that also time is created, the 2 go hand-in-hand)

This is something you don't have to proof, it is something you have to see as being 100% true.

If you think (and you must research this for yourself) that a flat sea IS possible for all eternity, i wish you good luck:)

So basically a void has to have a 'big bang' (or whatever science comes up with) and thereby creates time. And on a more down to earth note, communism HAS to fail:) because if, after hard and long work, the system has made everybody perfectly 100% equal, better take a picture because the NEXT thing that only can and will happen is that somebody exchanges food/money/clothes or whatever with somebody else and thereby breaking the perfect equalness:)

[4 IN 1 0]

er.......am i the only one here who have absolutely no idea on whats all about?

[stgn 39]

hmm Everything’s Relative.

STGN

[Monkwarrior 0]

I belive that we live our lifes how we choose to live them.

If you want to belive that reality does not exist, and we are not watching it, sure go ahead.

If you want to belive that a falling tree does not make a sound, when no one is around to hear it, sure go ahead here to.

I just think that you should make something good out of your life, but what that good thing is, is ofcourse up to you...

And that's the bottomline

Peace to all.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

As far as time goes, it is something that passes and goes on, inexorably, of course the perception of time may be different in different circumstances, but it will always go forward. If time stood still, everything else would also stand still. I mean, if time stood ABSOLUTELY still, wouldn't even advance by one nanosecond. The "you could see yourself depart in the mirror" theory is false because you cannot be in two places AT THE EXACT same time - you could travel fast between two places and appear to be at two places at the same time, but you can not be at two places at the PRECISE same time. The same mechanism also prevents "time-travelling". One can therefore not go back in time, it's just not possible. One may go everywhere without taking time, but one cannot go BACK in time, because time moves forward, always.

Remember, Luke... The Force will be with you... Always.

[maxqubit 1]

BUZZARD @ May 01 2007,12:45)]If time stood still, everything else would also stand still.

Basic flaw of western thinking. To think as time as something independent, as in 'Time causes things to happen' ...

Why not turn around things and say 'things happening, causes (the illusion of) time' ... if you pose it like this you don't have a problem with seeing that time always goes forward.

If nothing happens, you have no time. You dont have to 'wait' for something to happen because if nothing happens you have no (illusion of) time. So, really there is no problem. It is all very simple.

If you have a flat sea, the ONLY thing that can happen is a wave

If you have 1000 ArmA fans who all agree on the perfect patch version of ArmA, the ONLY thing that can happen is one of them falling out of heaven and declares that 'this or that part should be fixed or changed or whatever'. The perfect ArmA state can be reached but it will only last to the next 'BIS should fix this' remark in this forum:) ... you can than say something like 'you can always improve things' (the western styled thinking) but you could also take another perspective and say/see that because you will never be finished with this so called improving, that 'everything is already perfect'. Then you can pick up ArmA version 1.05 2387462378468 and just play the damned game:)