TrackIR Explained

[Universel 0]

Go on, burn ur money.

If you have 180 bucks to spend on a cam which is worth barely 20 and software which costs nothing.

I especially like the reaction of ppl who cant wait to throw away their 180 bucks but still refuse to try the free way.

Ask ur uncle or ur friend to lend u a webcam or go buy one for $20, you could still buy the $180 rip off later.

FREE Alternative to TrackIR - aka save 150 bucks.

[madmossy 0]

Go on, burn ur money.

If you have 180 bucks to spend on a cam which is worth barely 20 and software which costs nothing.

I especially like the reaction of ppl who cant wait to throw away their 180 bucks but still refuse to try the free way.

Ask ur uncle or ur friend to lend u a webcam or go buy one for $20, you could still buy the $180 rip off later.

FREE Alternative to TrackIR - aka save 150 bucks.

tried that numerous times could never get it working.

[andersson 285]

I have TrackIr4Pro and TrackClipPro. I have no problems using it.

When I first tried it in IL2 it was so natural I didnt think so much about it, I just looked around as I would in real life.

In the arma demo I had to tweak the lean to get it right (more deadspace in the middle and steeper curves). I also had to adjust to moving my head and body independently as I do not use haircross. But after a short whle that wasnt a problem more. Right now I dont think about it, and I use all axes (up-down, left-right, lean and zoom).

The only problem I had in the begging with this device was that the upper LED on the trackclip reflected on the lower trackclip-arm and the result was yerky movements when I looked left-up. Some non-reflective tape on the arm solved that.

The biggest issue with this (for me) was the price. Its very expencive. But I had the extra money so I bought it and I dont regret it. It should be cheaper, but its still worth the money.

edit: I have tried cam2pan and similar programs, and yes - if you dont want to pay for trackIR its a good solution (alot better than nothing). But trackIR is better (less hassle, better response).

I will not try to tell people to buy or not, but I thought Id share my experience with the product. I have read here and there that some people need to get used to it, and some (like me) its totally natural.

[OldGeezer 0]

Go on, burn ur money.

If you have 180 bucks to spend on a cam which is worth barely 20 and software which costs nothing.

I especially like the reaction of ppl who cant wait to throw away their 180 bucks but still refuse to try the free way.

Ask ur uncle or ur friend to lend u a webcam or go buy one for $20, you could still buy the $180 rip off later.

FREE Alternative to TrackIR - aka save 150 bucks.

Look, both sides of the coin have been represented in this thread. Both are valid. The fact that one poster clearly stated he's tried it both ways and finds the IR to be more reliable where tracking is concerned is enough to convince me that you likely get what you pay for in this case, as in most other cases.

If it offends you that some of us would rather just spend the money on a tried and tested professional product and software as opposed to going the home-made route, sorry! Get over it. I'm not gambling on buying a webcam to see if it works to my satisfaction when someone else already stated it likely won't...especially when there's a snazzy purpose-built sysem out there that I know will work. Yeesh! It's not like I'm buying a car...it's the cost of a few games, and will likely get used more that those few games.

[4 IN 1 0]

its the difference between taking flight in economy class compare to business class, you both in the same, crowed space and you still have to fly almost 12 hours to cross the ocean and the price difference is not just some "150 bucks", both were almost equal suffering and you pay much more, but in the end you got a sit which you can flaten it to become a somewhat small bed, and thats what makes the difference

[dslyecxi 23]

I'm not going to get involved with the "debate" between some people in this thread, but I will step in to say that I very much enjoy my TrackIR4+TrackClipPro and most definitely feel that it is worth the price of admission. Those who have picked one up on my recommendation have said the same, and there have been quite a few of them. That's good enough for me.

For those that can't afford a $150 peripheral for their system, the less costly alternatives are worth investigating... however, I doubt they'll provide the same high level of quality that a TIR4 has. If you're willing (or forced) to settle for less, I suppose the webcam "solutions" might suit you just fine. It's up to you to discover. Personally, $150 for something that adds so much to the experience is not a very hefty price tag. Hell, the average video card is twice that if not more.

[kestrel7e7 0]

Thanks to all TrackIR users posting on this forum telling everyone how satisified they are with their purchase. Great to hear.

I'm thinking of the future of head tracking, history shows that mass adoption of a new technology brings with it great advantages. If this were to happen with head tracking, more games would support it and the technology would be quickly refined. But this could only happen with a more reasonable price, mass production would then help to drop the price even further once it became popular, making the technology a standard.

So far, NaturalPoint has managed to achieve a monopoly over the PC gaming head tracking market, which is every company's dream, giving them the power to set the price with no competition (*cough*Microsoft*cough*). They've encouraged developers to add support for head tracking but only THEIR proprietary head tracking interface, excluding potential 3rd party head tracking solutions. The developers allow this because NaturalPoint do all the interfacing and tweaking for them (and could even pay them). As the number of games that support TrackIR gradually grows it further cements their proprietary interface and blocks out competition. If Logitech decided to enter the same market with their own head tracking solution, they would have considerable difficulty contending with TrackIR. They would need to lobby developers to stop using the TrackIR interface and make a general interface from scratch that can accept any 3rd party head tracker.

By buying TrackIR you're supporting NaturalPoint's monopoly and ensuring that head tracking techonolgy will remain a niche toy for uber-geeks.

[Gux 0]

Thanks to all TrackIR users posting on this forum telling everyone how satisified they are with their purchase. Great to hear.

I'm thinking of the future of head tracking, history shows that mass adoption of a new technology brings with it great advantages. If this were to happen with head tracking, more games would support it and the technology would be quickly refined. But this could only happen with a more reasonable price, mass production would then help to drop the price even further once it became popular, making the technology a standard.

So far, NaturalPoint has managed to achieve a monopoly over the PC gaming head tracking market, which is every company's dream, giving them the power to set the price with no competition (*cough*Microsoft*cough*). They've encouraged developers to add support for head tracking but only THEIR proprietary head tracking interface, excluding potential 3rd party head tracking solutions. The developers allow this because NaturalPoint do all the interfacing and tweaking for them (and could even pay them). As the number of games that support TrackIR gradually grows it further cements their proprietary interface and blocks out competition. If Logitech decided to enter the same market with their own head tracking solution, they would have considerable difficulty contending with TrackIR. They would need to lobby developers to stop using the TrackIR interface and make a general interface from scratch that can accept any 3rd party head tracker.

By buying TrackIR you're supporting NaturalPoint's monopoly and ensuring that head tracking techonolgy will remain a niche toy for uber-geeks.

^^^^

Totally jealous.

[fubarno1 0]

Oh Bollocks and there I was thinking TIR was being made by a one-man band in his tin shack when in actual fact its a company that is trying to take over the gaming world with their product.

Strange how all the cheap alternatives came after TIR was first marketed, maybe they should have put a patent on the idea just to stifle any future competition, maybe they shouldn't do any more research in how to further develop TIR then maybe costs could be reduced to make it more affordable for those that feel that they can't justify spending this type of money for an accessory.

What is more than likely in those that are slagging TIR off is they want one but can't afford it, they have tried the cheap way seen the benefit but cant put up with the instability of it so rather than saving for a TIR they prefer to try and turn others from it too, or even worse they have never even tried any type of tracking system.

All I can say for those that are not sure if its worth the money or not if you go through edimensional they offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee.

Quote[/b] ]What if I want to return my product for some reason?

All of our products come with our iron-clad 30 day satisfaction guarantee. All returns need to receive prior authorization. Virtually all issues can be easily resolved to get any product working at a high level of satisfaction. If you have questions or require return information, simply contact our customer support here and tell us your problem. If we can’t work it out we will promptly issue you an RMA number, no questions asked!

Give it a go, if you don't like it send it back all it costs you is P&P you can't get any fairer than that.

*Hell if you live in Coventry UK I'll loan anyone mine to trial for a week, its only a ver3 with the vector upgrade but good enough to prove their worth.

*<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>subject to proof of residence, proof of ID, and fingerprints taken</span>  

[GAU-8 0]

natural point has been around for years.

its a "no name" in first person shooter games and such,because the GAMING industry is FINALY catching on (doh) but there is a big REASON why the avg, to hardcore FLIGHTsimmer has been using natural points product for almost a decade.i do say decade because flight simmers were using this when it was originally intended for quadrapalegics /spine inury users! it was just by accident and feedback that natural point decided to get into the gaming side of the needed market.

the competition has either gone out of business, offers inferior products, or gives you a "make it at home and save$$$" version, or a hodgpodge of different H/W and progs to mix n match together.

i wont tell anyone to not try the alternatives, but i will say this is one of those things, you get what you pay for. its a solid unit, mine has been dropped, kicked, and chewed on by cats. still works after several years of everyday use.

[fubarno1 0]

its a solid unit,  mine has been dropped, kicked, and chewed on by cats. still works after  several years of everyday use.

Well I'd stop the cats from using it if they are going to abuse it in that fashion

[Winters1807 0]

Do you have any information on how much a track IR headset would be, and where i could buy it from?

[Stryder 0]

We are just trying to show the technology that TrackIR brings to the table.

Some people have never seen what it can do for your basic game play, and with the imminent release of ArmA in the UK....

Also, I'm always more than happy to answer any questions....

I for one am appreciative of this vid being posted. So thanks! I'd heard of TrackIR but wasn't really sure what it was capable of. I'm def. interested now though. It's out of my price range for now, but maybe in a year or two once I buy my absurdly expensive classical guitar and violin I've been wanting so bad

[kestrel7e7 0]

This paper shows how overpriced TrackIR is.

"Simple, Robust and Accurate Head-Pose

Tracking Using a Single Camera"

University of Wollongong 2006

"In order to overcome much of the cost and deficiencies in existing head-pose tracking systems we have been developing accurate methods for pinpointing the position of infrared LEDs using an inexpensive USB camera and low-cost algorithms for estimating the 3D coordinates of the LEDs based on known geometry. Our system is comprised of a single low-cost USB camera and a pair of spectacles fitted with three battery powered LEDs concealed within the spectacle frame. Judging by our results, we believe our system to be the most accurate low-cost head-pose tracking system developed. Furthermore, our system is robust and requires no calibration. Experimental results are provided demonstrating a headpose tracking accuracy of less than 0.5 degrees when the user is within one meter distance from the camera."

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi....opapers

Edit: And yes, they are aware of TrackIR, it is listed in the references.

Another Edit: "The computational cost is also extremely low, at less than one microsecond processing time per frame on an average personal computer for the entire three-dimensional calculation. The system can therefore easily keep up with whatever frame rate the video camera is able to deliver."

[4 IN 1 0]

This paper shows how overpriced TrackIR is.

"Simple, Robust and Accurate Head-Pose

Tracking Using a Single Camera"

University of Wollongong 2006

"In order to overcome much of the cost and deficiencies in existing head-pose tracking systems we have been developing accurate methods for pinpointing the position of infrared LEDs using an inexpensive USB camera and low-cost algorithms for estimating the 3D coordinates of the LEDs based on known geometry. Our system is comprised of a single low-cost USB camera and a pair of spectacles fitted with three battery powered LEDs concealed within the spectacle frame. Judging by our results, we believe our system to be the most accurate low-cost head-pose tracking system developed. Furthermore, our system is robust and requires no calibration. Experimental results are provided demonstrating a headpose tracking accuracy of less than 0.5 degrees when the user is within one meter distance from the camera."

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi....opapers

Edit: And yes, they are aware of TrackIR, it is listed in the references.

Another Edit:  "The computational cost is also extremely low, at less than one microsecond processing time per frame on an average personal computer for the entire three-dimensional calculation. The system can therefore easily keep up with whatever frame rate the video camera is able to deliver."

stop bithcing about how overpriced it is could you?

there is a cheaper alternative and we all agreed how would it affect the market, and NP might have a chance to give a price cut, but untill anything in your quote have come up, there still have very few chance for a price cut, IMO i just dont understand why are you just keep bitching this long, you dont have the money to get one, thats bad, and we hope you can affort it in a near future or a real alternative come up so every bodys happy, but untill then all the bitching is rubbish

[Metal Heart 0]

This might come as a surprise but almost everything you buy is overpriced. It's called making profit which in effect is the opposite of going bankrupt.

[Barred 0]

It is the price of 3 or 4 games. So instead of getting that game you are not sure of, or might play for a few hours save the money. That is what I did

Kestrel7e7, the more you are going on about TIR's price, the more you sound like a petulant kid whos dad has said no to you.

Try living in the UK THEN complain about being ripped off about the price of things. Loog at Vist as an example for Home Premiul (list price) £250 in $ it is not far short of $500 and I am prety sure it does not cost that much in the USA.

So please stop crying

[Hostilian 11]

Seems to be equal amounts of 'crying' in this thread - both from the Tir 'pushers' and the Tir-phobes.

#C

[Barred 0]

Seems to be equal amounts of 'crying' in this thread - both from the Tir 'pushers' and the Tir-phobes.

#C

Oh I better stay away from my daughter as I am a Pusher j/k

TBH Cakes I would be more than happy to turn this thread into a 'help' thread. This would save people the effort to go over to NP's site.

[OldGeezer 0]

Seems to be equal amounts of 'crying' in this thread - both from the Tir 'pushers' and the Tir-phobes.

#C

I haven't heard anyone "crying". Some are simply debating the product's merit. This bothers you, yet here you are.

But thanks for the relevant and thought-provoking contribution to the subject.

[Hostilian 11]

OldGeezer. Thanks for misunderstanding, and getting it totally wrong.. Duh.

The 'crying' in speech marks was a quote that someone else used.. I dont think either side is 'Crying' - it was a rather childish riposte used against someone in this thread and I was actually getting at the person that used it.

Personally, I think everyone has a right to say what the hell he or she wants - and have said so in various threads.

Some people avoid discussing well made points (as they cant dispute them) responding with "stop crying", "Dont like it, dont play it", etc etc. This is just a playground cop out.

Hope you feel suitably silly...

#C

[OldGeezer 0]

Ok...my bad.

[Barred 0]

Cakes I know it was ained at me, have you read the whole thread? It has nothing about not being able to counter the person I amed it at.  He had a gripe about the price and no matter what others said to him he always came back with another  quote and angle about the price and yes he was sounding as I descried him. That was 'I can't afford it and it is not fair it is so expensive, see here and here are quotes to back me up.'

I am not going any further with this with you, because I will be wrong in your eyes no matter.

This is a big departure for both Natural Point and for BIS in the comming together of a FPS (no matter how complicated) and a device that alows you to look ingame as naturally as you do in the real world.

Now what is going to happen in the near future is there will be posts of 'It is not fair he does not have to move out of cover because he is using one of those head things.' or 'It is not fair he can follow where I am going he has a un-natural atvantage, ban him.'

How do I know?

I have watched it happen in flight sims where early uptakers were accused of cheating because they were using ingame head tracking. Now in flight sims and recently racing sims it has been turned around. Cost was one of the early reasons spouted as TIR being un-fair in a sim. Because ou might have to save for it (TIR)

I have posted more than I was originally going to because I have seen it all happen before, spending x amount on a TIR bought out the "Not fair it is so expensive" where spending the same amount on a mouse or joystick as you lucky so and so.

All I care about, is that I bought ArmA because of it's support of TIR. I wanted to be there where the first FPS actually used TIR and say to the developers of both hardware and game; Thank you both for having the foresight and courage to get together and give us gamers a great experience.

If anyone wants help you will find me on the NP thech support forums.

[EricM 0]

I don't think anyone is questionning the merit of Track IR : it works well and is currently the best head-tracking solution on the market. Period.

However what is in question is the ratio value/price of a virtually monopolistic product on a niche market, with little competition in sight for another few months at the very least (any remotely comparable solution is only in early alpha development).

The real question is not if it is overprice or ridiculously overpriced, but if you can live without or not...

Most people got hooked to the experience. They probably all know they paid a big premium, but retrospectively once the cash is gone, they get their daily shot of headtracking-crack to forget about it and get bliss.

There is no other way in a monopole situation for (seemingly) vital products. Price is not relevant : you need food, water or drug ? If you really need it, you will pay.

[Barred 0]

Fair enough EricM and a good comment.

Price to usage ratio (which is how I work it out.) I have spent on average 3 hours a day in a driving or flight sim using TIR for the last 3 years and gone through 3 versions for about 500 sterling. Doing the math it comes to 0.5 pence per hour of enjoyment.

So I have the ability to look in a game for 0.5p/h at a conservative 3 hours a day. That to me is good value. Especially with the excelent customer support to me is great value for money.