TrackIR Explained

[kestrel7e7 0]

I think it's funny when people pay a premium for TrackIR4 with 6dof, only to use 2dof for looking, disabling the others because they find them annoying and useless. The same could have been achieved with a webcam and cam2pan.

[Maximus_G 0]

I think it's funny when people pay a premium for TrackIR4 with 6dof, only to use 2dof for looking, disabling the others because they find them annoying and useless. The same could have been achieved with a webcam and cam2pan.

No, it couldn't. Webcam-based solutions have much less fps (30 is considered good), TIR produces 100-120 FPS. Cam2pan and others eat significant amount of CPU resource, TIR almost doesn't.

And there's a good reason to have a 6DOF-TIR while using just 2 axis. It's the precision. TIR3Pro or 4 filters out "parasite" movements like small left-right slides of user's head. That's a very important feature.

[znashin 0]

You know, now that I think about it, even without peripherals, would it not make more sense when turning the head with the Alt key, if hitting right mouse button to bring up the sights would swing you into natural firing postion without disturbing your view, rather than point the gun straight ahead while you're looking sideways while zooming, and snapping to center when sighting, which nobody would do in real life?. You'd keep looking at the target (the most likely reason you want to bring up the sights) while bringing the gun up to aim, turning your body accordingly.

Would that not be a good idea?

I agree, that would be a great improvement. I think BI are a little busy at the moment but this would be a nice patch addition in the future.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Like this thread is nothing but an advertisement, it could at least have been posted to the existing TrackIR thread

Agreed.

I hope also that big manufacturers like Logitech start manufacturing similiar device so the price would go down. There's still lot of 'air' in the pricing.

[kestrel7e7 0]

No, it couldn't. Webcam-based solutions have much less fps (30 is considered good), TIR produces 100-120 FPS. Cam2pan and others eat significant amount of CPU resource, TIR almost doesn't.

And there's a good reason to have a 6DOF-TIR while using just 2 axis. It's the precision. TIR3Pro or 4 filters out "parasite" movements like small left-right slides of user's head. That's a very important feature.

The PS/2 mouse interface samples at 40 samples per second and has been used for decades with Windows, CAD programs and FPS games. Cam2pan uses 30fps webcams, which is plenty, especially so for head tracking that doesn't require precise aiming.

I believe NaturalPoint's 120fps claim is misleading propaganda. Higher sample rates correspond with increased CPU usage, if 40fps is enough for a precise mouse there is no need to exceed that just for head tracking. If their 120fps claim is correct, it could be because they are using a VERY low resolution camera that only picks up significant head motions. This low resolution image doesn't require much of the CPU to process and the resulting motions are filtered to give the illusion of smooth control. If this is the case then cam2pan is actually more precise in detecting small motions than TrackIR.

CPU usage with cam2pan depends on your camera drivers.

A multi-core processor with a multi-threaded OS can easily deal with camera CPU usage while playing a single-threaded game.

Those 'parastic' movements would still exist if all 6dofs are being used and are translated into the game whether you like it or not. Using cam2pan, everything is planar, so you don't have to rotate your head to look left and right, instead you can slide you head so you can keep looking directly at your screen with the added benefit that your nose doesn't get in the way of one of your eyes.

Cam2pan gives you everything you need for a fraction of the price.

[Universel 0]

I said it in the "free alternative to TrackIR" thread, and I ll say it here again.

TrackIR is a major rip off.

6DOF software, aka software that can simultaneously track 3 or more points is now out, and it is FREE and OPENSOURCE.

So the only advantage of TIR over cam2pan and freeview (both only 1-point-tracking softwares) is gone.

Do the maths, TIR charges you 150$+ for a 1bit camera (ie 2 "colors") and 6dof closed source software.

While for 30$ you can get a 24bit camera (16 millions colors) and 6dof opensource software. If you already own a webcam, then price goes down to $O !

[Maximus_G 0]

The PS/2 mouse interface samples at 40 samples per second and has been used for decades with Windows, CAD programs and FPS games. Cam2pan uses 30fps webcams, which is plenty, especially so for head tracking that doesn't require precise aiming.

...

Those 'parastic' movements would still exist if all 6dofs are being used and are translated into the game whether you like it or not. Using cam2pan, everything is planar, so you don't have to rotate your head to look left and right, instead you can slide you head so you can keep looking directly at your screen ...

There's too much theory in that.

I've been using webcam solutions and TIR in simulators for years, and also have seen very many opinions on forums from guys like me, starting  with a hat and going through webcams, mice, some hand-made and exotic stuff and TIR.

All i can say to you - you could read more opinions on subject from experienced simmers and try it yourself. That would make many things evident.

---

BTW, there had been a common practice of overclocking PS/2 port to 80Hz to get rid of jerkiness. And then there was the 125Hz USB interface.

[My_Shortcoming 0]

I have Track IR 4 PRO and the Track IR Clip. The device is very good and i enjoy using it, does mean i have to sit up straight not laying on my desk lol but I have yet to get the Track IR Clip to function with my Zalman 5.1 Headset, the head spazems with that and ive tried a number of positionings of both me the track Ir device and the clip. Long story short I cant use it and feel like ive wasted my money on it, Luckely the small cap mountable piece can strech to the obscene width that the top of my headset is thus using that is my only option, any chance a naturalpoint member can point me in the right direction concerning the Clip?

[Rofflecopter 0]

I have been using a trackir for the demo and now I have the full game it seems a bit less sensitive, I had to have it on deadzone on demo and now it's all smooth, but I don't think I play with out it, now if I could only stop the cobra from flipping upside down I'd be a happy man.

But like the others I have to disable the Z and it was very sensitive, but all the rest I use.

Oh and e-dimensional is where I got mine from and they were the cheapest I could find in UK, with good shipping cost and times.

[kestrel7e7 0]

All i can say to you - you could read more opinions on subject from experienced simmers and try it yourself. That would make many things evident.

---

BTW, there had been a common practice of overclocking PS/2 port to 80Hz to get rid of jerkiness. And then there was the 125Hz USB interface.

Overclocking a PS/2 port has merit if you move your mouse very quickly and require immediate response. In comparison, you would have to move your head fast enough to give you whiplash before a head tracking sample rate higher than 40Hz would be required.

I've tracked TrackIR from its inception and the only thing that has become evident is that people are being ripped off.

[Rofflecopter 0]

Quote[/b] ]I've tracked TrackIR from its inception and the only thing that has become evident is that people are being ripped off.

Roffle, ripped off, how can someone be ripped off when they buy stuff they want, your not forced into buying this great product, I spent 100 pounds on Track 4 delivered and personally it was money well spent, I feel more ripped off by spending that, out on the booze!

oh and I tried that webcam thing and it's balls, no where near as good as Trackir.

[baddo 0]

Thanks for the video, I get it now. No promises of buying such device though. I'd rather first investigate other, possible cheaper choices.

[OldGeezer 0]

You know, now that I think about it, even without peripherals, would it not make more sense when turning the head with the Alt key, if hitting right mouse button to bring up the sights would swing you into natural firing postion without disturbing your view, rather than point the gun straight ahead while you're looking sideways while zooming, and snapping to center when sighting, which nobody would do in real life?. You'd keep looking at the target (the most likely reason you want to bring up the sights) while bringing the gun up to aim, turning your body accordingly.

Would that not be a good idea?

I agree, that would be a great improvement. I think BI are a little busy at the moment but this would be a nice patch addition in the future.

I don't want to get yelled at for getting off-topic, so it'll be the last I say on the subjsect, but I could see snipers complaining when they already have a target ahead of them zoomed/sighted and just want to take a quick peek around. The soulution of course would be for the default behavior to remain if the zoom/sight is already active when the alt key is pushed.

Anyways. I think the Track IR would be an easier solution. And I don't see how a cam with freeware could possibly compare to the 6-degrees detection. Move your head side to side to simulate turning? That sounds as unnatural as using a thumb-pad (and as limited). The whole idea behind Track IR is to use motions that are already second (or first?) nature to you. You do what you've been doing all your life, just to a lesser degree.

The camera/freeware solution sounds like a half-baked substitute for those who can't afford the real deal.

[OldGeezer 0]

I've tracked TrackIR from its inception and the only thing that has become evident is that people are being ripped off.

If you'd said you've USED TrackIR from it's inception (or at all), you'd have some shred of credibility. Sorry, but you don't.

[EricM 0]

Quote[/b] ]And I don't see how a cam with freeware could possibly compare to the 6-degrees detection.

There are 6DOF webcam-based opensource software available though still in early alpha. But it's a matter of weeks of months to get a decent competitors with 6DOF.

The argument about 30FPS vs 120FPS is largely irrelevant in most cases. I used both TIR4 and Cam2pan and you don't see much difference. It's very smooth and natural in both cases, and you don't move your head so fast anyway so that it's a problem.

Why don't I use Cam2pan more often ? Because it does eat more CPU power to analyse the image (and I need my CPU to run Arma) and while it works well most of the time, it tends to lose track more often due to its higher sensibility to light conditions.

Imho, Track IR is still the best, but maybe not for long...

And though I wouldn't call it a ripoff, it's clearly overpriced. An example ? : The track clip pro at 50 Euros for a tube of plastic and 3 LEDs ??? I could build a custom one for 5 euros...

[OldGeezer 0]

6DOF software, aka software that can simultaneously track 3 or more points is now out, and it is FREE and OPENSOURCE.

So the only advantage of TIR over cam2pan and freeview (both only 1-point-tracking softwares) is gone.

Edit: Nm...see above post [going back to sleep]

[4 IN 1 0]

well think this way:

i dont need a webcam to show my fat body around the stupid internet, and i surely dont need to take some low res pictures with this piece of junk(for me, and i got a better way to do such things), so i want a 6DOF head tracking system without those stupid function that i dont need to use, and it is smooth and fast and simple to use, i'd say i would go for the TIR

its only me, as i have already drop the idea of "paying much less then you suppose to" a long time ago

[Maddmatt 1]

well think this way:

i dont need a webcam to show my fat body around the stupid internet, and i surely dont need to take some low res pictures with this piece of junk(for me, and i got a better way to do such things), so i want a 6DOF head tracking system without those stupid function that i dont need to use, and it is smooth and fast and simple to use, i'd say i would go for the TIR

its only me, as i have already drop the idea of "paying much less then you suppose to" a long time ago

So you would pay more to have less features? I don't see the point.

I like the idea of TrackIR, and was considering getting it. The problem is the price - it's an incredibly large sum to pay for an IR camera and software. If the price was reasonable maybe I would.

I think the price is holding back the success of TrackIR.

[Barred 0]

I have used TIR since version 1 and 4. The differece between version 1 and 4 is like using a 486 and a Core2Duo.

I am not a large poster on forums except for the Natural Point Forums. because TIR does take time to get used to and it does tack time to set up, all the same as ArmA.

One of you who try to help newcommers to OFP and now ArmA would say quite rightly. That ArmA takes time to get used to and does have glitches, but keep at it and once you 'click' then ArmA comes alive. Once that happens then ArmA becomes what you wanted and more, you even forgive the glitches.

TIR is like that give it time and ask if you are stuck and TIR becomes as essential as a mouse in games/sims that use it.

[OldGeezer 0]

I'm pretty much sold. Just gotta get a month or so of regular work under my belt (GM Canada is putting us through periodic layoffs right now).

Even if I only ever use it with this one title...It's the amount of time spent using it that's important, not its cost relative to one game. I plan on playing the living daylights out of AA. I plan to be playing mods for it after I buy my next computer and can actually turn up all the graphics. And the thought of using that thing, especially when I'm flying, is too tempting.

[kestrel7e7 0]

There's nothing natural about rotating/moving your head while looking at a fixed monitor.

NaturalPoint could have easily released TrackIR4 straight out like the freeware Freetrack equivalent. But no, instead they take their time, adding features progessively with each new release to make the previous model obsolete and encouraging people to go through the upgrade cycle. Instead of the baseball cap setup they could have released a more convenient and practical headphone setup outright, but no, they consider it an optional extra. ChaChing! $$$$$

Open your wallet and leave your brain at the door.

Sucker born every minute.  

No wonder advertisers have contempt for consumers.

[OldGeezer 0]

There's nothing natural about rotating/moving your head while looking at a fixed monitor.

Open your wallet and leave your brain at the door.

Sucker born every minute.  

No wonder advertisers have contempt for consumers.

All in good spirit...I think turning your head in real life to turn your head in the game would be more second-nature to me than moving my head side to side. You seem to think that you have to turn your head to a degree where it would be inconvenient to look at the monitor from such a big angle, which is what I thought too, but when I saw the video of the guy explaining that you can adjust to range to whatever you want, I realized it's not such a big issue.

But the advantage of looking up and down isn't something I can dismiss as easily as you...especially if I'm in a chopper and I want to look downward for enemy troops below. And even with the 6-degrees/cam freeware option, it has been stated in a post above that the IR is more reliable for keeping tracking accuracy...that's a biggie for me. I get irate pretty quickly when hardware malfunctions alot.

[Gux 0]

Sucker born every minute.

Unfunny troll born every second.

[madmossy 0]

Im actually getting more and more interested in this idea as time goes by, im still not 100% convinced but getting there, one thing though i have the chance of getting a trackir 3 with extra's for 40 quid would it be worthwhile getting that or just pay the extra 30 for quid trackir4 ?

[Barred 0]

Even if I only ever use it with this one title...It's the amount of time spent using it that's important, not its cost relative to one game.

OldGeezer, that is the exact reason I bought TIR1. The only difference was that it was IL2.

TBH TIR1 was a real quirky bit of kit, what with loosing track (just when you did not need it to of course) and being very finicky with light sources, it did take a bit of stubborn dedication to using it. Not to forget turning your monitor into a Darlek or having your face in the screen because of the effective range of the camera.

Today it is a totally different animal. I sit at my desk with my wheel set up and the camera just sits there on my monitor (as aposed to a ruler) and I raly lost track once I had everything tweaked.

To the earlier poster about the Trackclip Pro the active LED ddon that clips to a headset instead of reflective tape that is used on the clip. I do not see it as synical because TIR4 works very well out of the box. The active clip negates having to use the LED's on the camera. For me that is the icing on the cake as I do not have to turn the blinds a bit when the sun si out.

Oh an no I am not an employee of NP. I feel the way about TIR as you guys who modded OFP felt about OFP and now ArmA. Oh I have had a camera go wrong the problem was delt with no fuss no hassle.