Respawns & QuickSaves---> Will We Have It?

[bigshot 62]

Was just curious to know if anyone has heard whether or not respawns have been changed so they will be SERVER dependant (via the user interface) instead of MAP dependant?

also was wondering if quicksaves will now be bound to a shortcut key or will it still be somewhat of a "cheat code" you have to type into console?

Thanks for any info!

BigShot

[benreeper 0]

Respawn are tied into the gametype/mission so it shouldn't be something overridden by the server. I'm not even sure how that would work.

I believe that BIS is making saves easier for the "Death is too final" crowd. Actually the easier it is to save, the sloppier the mission design can be.

--Ben

[(FPC) Bacon 0]

Will the in game CTF & C&H have respawn protection as these are not present with the maps what are on the original multiplayer maps that came with FLASHPOINT,Only user made maps have had this added to them?

[TeRp 1]

overwriting the respawn settings of missions or even have the respawn settings only be definable by the server is nonsense.

this would destroy a lot of missions (e.g. CTI / CTF with respawn at the point of your death or group respawn!?). The respawn is definately something which must be defined in the mission itself.

if you need another respawntype in a mission, you can easily adjust it by changing the description.ext and using a slightly different pbo / mission name

[bigshot 62]

woops, perhaps i should clarify my original question...what i meant to ask was....will there be server controlled COOP based respawns?

Its been quite awhile for me, but i started playing OFP originally the first week it was available in stores...back then 90% of the people who tried it hated it because it was too difficult or frustrating, and this still holds true today. There IS such a thing as a non-hardcore fanatic afterall...maybe not so much on this forum, but we do exist...we are the majority of sales, and we do not feel that having to "hack" away at 3rd party map files is an enjoyable way to spend out precious/limited game time just so we can respawn back into a coop mission after being killed...nor is flying about as a bird above the action as our friends attempt to finish the level without us.

The simplest solution is obviously to make it an OPTION via some sort of checkbox or pull down menu within the interface...in this way the truly hardore players can just not use it...hence we all can be happy.

just my input as an "average joe" user is all...im sure there are others about.

BigShot

[DarkOmen 0]

Respawning sounds nice, but it wouldn't work for all COOP missions. It's really up to the Level Designer IMO.

[BlueFish 0]

What do you think of a kind of "limited" respawning, indepedent of the map-design/server, means you can only respawn as often as AI based team members are available/not killed? (as some maps in ofp did). i.e. Map says fo 10 players, 8 AI 2 human, -> max. 8 respawns.

imo this would fit most players/squads, even smaller ones.

[bigshot 62]

thats how it used to work in OFP (still does), but only after you hacked the map files and even then sometimes it didnt work properly depending on the map. It was a buggy procedure at its best.

That same sort of limited respawning is exactly what id like to see again, only this time make it a tickable option in the menus instead of having to edit the maps themselves.

BigShot

[Commando84 0]

i like options, the options to choose how hardcore i want to go or lowcore omfg i think i invented a new word there lowcore!

[benreeper 0]

OFP is NOT hardcore. The game keeps getting this rap and I don't understand it. I played Brothers In Arms and it was much harder because I had to finish every mission the way the designer wanted it done, no matter how flawed/hard the mission was. OFP's freedom makes it easy IMO. Aside from the limited saves, explain how the game is hardcore. Counterstrike is hardcore. New players do not get destroyed in MP in OFP in the same manner that they do in all other FPS's.

--Ben

[Big Dawg KS 6]

The simplest solution is obviously to make it an OPTION via some sort of checkbox or pull down menu within the interface...in this way the truly hardore players can just not use it...hence we all can be happy.

just my input as an "average joe" user is all...im sure there are others about.

BigShot

Such menus allready exist in OFP, but it's the mission maker's OPTION to add them or not for their missions. What you don't understand is that having something as mission defining as respawns controlled by the server admin can ruin or even break certain missions. Furtheremore, it takes all of 30 seconds to edit respawns in a mission, and it's one of the easiest things in the world to do. Also, I have no idea why you think an option would NOT cause bugs for missions that WERE NOT DESIGNED to use the respawn system you're forcing upon it. A lot of missions require a very specific type of respawn, and even ones that don't often allready have the option (that the mission maker decided to make available for the mission) of selecting the type of respawn (if any), and if not almost EVERY professional MP mission at least has difficulty settings for you "softcore" players. I do believe that the server admins should get some control, and they do, but ultimately the mission maker should have supreme control over as many things as possible. And lastly, if you find a mission is too hard for you, then don't play it, play an easier one. Besides, modifying things to make the mission easier (against the mission maker's intentions) is practically cheating.

[bigshot 62]

The simplest solution is obviously to make it an OPTION via some sort of checkbox or pull down menu within the interface...in this way the truly hardore players can just not use it...hence we all can be happy.

just my input as an "average joe" user is all...im sure there are others about.

BigShot

Such menus allready exist in OFP, but it's the mission maker's OPTION to add them or not for their missions. What you don't understand is that having something as mission defining as respawns controlled by the server admin can ruin or even break certain missions. Furtheremore, it takes all of 30 seconds to edit respawns in a mission, and it's one of the easiest things in the world to do. Also, I have no idea why you think an option would NOT cause bugs for missions that WERE NOT DESIGNED to use the respawn system you're forcing upon it. A lot of missions require a very specific type of respawn, and even ones that don't often allready have the option (that the mission maker decided to make available for the mission) of selecting the type of respawn (if any), and if not almost EVERY professional MP mission at least has difficulty settings for you "softcore" players. I do believe that the server admins should get some control, and they do, but ultimately the mission maker should have supreme control over as many things as possible. And lastly, if you find a mission is too hard for you, then don't play it, play an easier one. Besides, modifying things to make the mission easier (against the mission maker's intentions) is practically cheating.

no offense, but if a mission is designed which does not support respawns then i would have no interest in playing it. Unfortunately about 75% of the OFP maps ive downloaded and played over the years did not have respawning built in....you had to edit the map file itself to change those values and many times it screwed up the way the map played out in the end, or broke it in a sense. Therefore its not a reliable adjustment to make as some have suggested.

Relying upon map makers to decide whether or not to design their maps with respawning in mind is one solution, but not one i favor or prefer due to what ive stated above where most maps i used to find just did not have built in respawns.

I dont see whats so terrible if the developers hardcoded the respawn option into the game itself instead of leaving it as an option for the map designers, this is the same way its done in most other titles and works just fine.

Perhaps things have changed with new maps lately and it plays alot better than it used to, i dunno since i havent played in a long time now...but i do know the way it was originally was just too frustrating of an experience.

Go try playing some GRAW Coop (which is alot easier than OFP and has no respawns) and tell me its not frustrating as heck...finally the devs added limited respawns...many months too late im afraid as that title is close to dead by now. Its also one of the reasons why OFP never caught on as mainstream.

Leaving it to the map designers just complicates things for the end user, and thats the bottom line truth to the issue.

I guess i will just have to play it before guessing or passing judgement on this new version...but i hope some positive changes were accomplished in this regard for us soft-core players.

BigShot

[Big Dawg KS 6]

....you had to edit the map file itself to change those values and many times it screwed up the way the map played out in the end, or broke it in a sense. Therefore its not a reliable adjustment to make as some have suggested.

So how is having an option to change the respawn settings NOT also going to break them? I will say that OFP suffers from a lack of professionally made missions, but we are hoping this will change in ArmA, and it's still no reason to take control away from the mission maker.

Quote[/b] ]I dont see whats so terrible if the developers hardcoded the respawn option into the game itself instead of leaving it as an option for the map designers, this is the same way its done in most other titles and works just fine.

Because anything that's hardcoded can't be modified and BIS doesn't like that, they want to keep the game as modable as possible. Also, missions (especially heavily scripted ones) are often built around the respawn system used, sometimes it must even be controlled in the mission by scripts to achieve the mission maker's desired game style. Hardcoding a respawn option would seriously reduce the potential of mission editing and only set the situation further back. Instead, if the mission maker feels it is possible for the respawn options to be changed in their mission without breaking it, they should create a respawn option parameter (in the description.ext) and use something like Mapfact's limited respawn scripts. I feel it is necessary for me to talk about several coop missions I recently made, they both use group respawn. There is a reason for this, the players' respawns are limited by the number of AI they have in their squad, so completing objectives results in reinforcing them with more AI, extending the durration of the mission. These missions will NOT play well without that specific type of respawn. Therefore, it is necessary that I, the mission maker, be able to control the respawning in my mission. Also, other games can get away with having those options because most of the time all of the gameplay styles are hardcoded, if this were the case with OFP then 95% of the missions you wanted to play in the first place wouldn't even exist. Hardcoding everything takes away flexibility, which is what has kept OFP enjoyable for 5 long years. A better approach would be to either find missions that appeal to your style of gameplay or open up the editor and learn how to make your own; it's not as hard and intimidating as everyone says, and there are more than enough documents and tutorials available to teach you every single aspect of mission editing, even good mission design. This will be even more so with ArmA now that we have the wiki.

[Metal Heart 0]

What's the point of playing if you can't lose? (since most coops are only lost by dying)

Overriding respawn setting would make the missions harder to make because you would have to consider where the players respawn and how it would completely mess up the mission difficulty etc so mission makers would probably just have some counter-measures for it, like having the respawn on an island 100km away from the action or detecting a respawning player and ending the mission for him or putting him into a camera script for the rest of the mission.

[bigshot 62]

What's the point of playing if you can't lose? (since most coops are only lost by dying)

Overriding respawn setting would make the missions harder to make because you would have to consider where the players respawn and how it would completely mess up the mission difficulty etc so mission makers would probably just have some counter-measures for it, like having the respawn on an island 100km away from the action or detecting a respawning player and ending the mission for him or putting him into a camera script for the rest of the mission.

i dont understand why YOU dont understand...apparently you have little experience playing difficult levels because having limited/group respawns does not mean you will automatically win...far from it in fact.

In the past ive played lots of coop maps in OFP with some friends which had group respawning and there were many times we still could not complete the mission at hand...and at the time we were NOT bad players. Then again we never bothered with the "easy" maps.

Its hysterical to me that some of you actually think that by adding limited respawns theyd be hurting the game or making it too easy. Maybe you need to just turn up the difficulty or download better maps, dunno...but if youre only playing with 1 friend lets say, it can really suck without at least having group spawns when yer on a tough map.

Sorry but i just cant see having the ability to respawn maybe 3 times ruining the game. If anything, itll keep the majority of users playing longer to keep comming back for more.

...but for those of you who can rambo and/or command their way through hardened enemy lines with nothing but a pea shooter and come out unscaved with the same life they began with, this philosophy will of course not apply.

[Kirby 2]

OFP is NOT hardcore.  The game keeps getting this rap and I don't understand it.  I played Brothers In Arms and it was much harder because I had to finish every mission the way the designer wanted it done, no matter how flawed/hard the mission was.  OFP's freedom makes it easy IMO.  Aside from the limited saves, explain how the game is hardcore.  Counterstrike is hardcore.  New players do not get destroyed in MP in OFP in the same manner that they do in all other FPS's.

--Ben

Um. Buddy. BiA and CounterStrike are NOT. i repeat. ARE NOT. hardcore.

BiA is pretty easy and CounterStrike is "A bit of fun with mates" kind of game.

OFP is mostly about realism. So even a newbie trooper wont get shot the the second he stepsfoot in the battle field, but in a PROPER combat situation...

OFP is... Medium to Hard Core... And CS and BIA are "AverageCore" or whatever you wanna call it. lol.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

i dont understand why YOU dont understand...apparently you have little experience playing difficult levels because having limited/group respawns does not mean you will automatically win...far from it in fact.

In the past ive played lots of coop maps in OFP with some friends  which had group respawning and there were many times we still could not complete the mission at hand...and at the time we were NOT bad players. Then again we never bothered with the "easy" maps.

Its hysterical to me that some of you actually think that by adding limited respawns theyd be hurting the game or making it too easy. Maybe you need to just turn up the difficulty or download better maps, dunno...but if youre only playing with 1 friend lets say, it can really suck without at least having group spawns when yer on a tough map.

Sorry but i just cant see having the ability to respawn maybe 3 times ruining the game. If anything, itll keep the majority of users playing longer to keep comming back for more.

...but for those of you who can rambo and/or command their way through hardened enemy lines with nothing but a pea shooter and come out unscaved with the same life they began with, this philosophy will of course not apply.

That's not the point (at least not the one I'm trying to make). The point is that I (and I'm sure countless other mission makers) would hate to see any sort of hardcoded override for respawns. Respawns are part of the mission, not the game. Also if you're playing with only one friend, you should play a mission that was designed for a small number of people. Or even better, take up editing yourself and make a quick, simple 2 player COOP. It takes 5 minutes maximum to set up. Now, you bring up the idea of limited respawns, and I would love to see it supported in ArmA, but only if it's defined in the description.ext where the respawn option is and should be defined. If you find that the missions you are playing are too hard than tough luck, they can't be suited for everyone; this is exactly why OFP provides you with a mission editor. If you don't like the mission maker's decisions, then make it yourself, we need more mission makers. This is part of OFP; 3rd part content. When I was bored of the same old BIS hand grenades, I had several options; bear with it (out of the question), wait around and complain here and there while hoping someone would do something about it (which didn't work), or to start up O2, open my script editor, and get working on it. And after a lot of frustration, waiting, and painstaking work, I finaly (and recently) finished the project to an extent that I was happy with. No, it wasn't easy, but it was worth it. Mission eiditing is probably 1000 times easier than that, and the hardest part IMO is not figuring out how to do stuff, but what to do. The game can't suite everyone's wishes, but at least by keeping certain things open to modification, it gives people a chance to customize it to their liking. (I really don't know where I'm going with this).

Getting back on topic, hardcoding the option to select respawns, to me, is a step backwards. This is not some FPS where maps come "empty" and the server admin sets all the options, occasianally running repetative mods. In OFP, missions are complex and self-contained. They're unique, they play out differently and require their own specific settings; these include playable units, weapons available, and respawn settings, amoung others.

[bigshot 62]

Dont get me wrong, i CAN fully empathize with your position, afterall you have countless hours invested in designing/creating something which you dont want to see "broken" at this point.

Unfortunately, we are both standing on opposite sides of the sprectrum...where your wants/needs will be more heavily supported by long time experienced OFP'ers on the hard-core end as well as map makers....and my wants/needs might find more support when it comes to new users and casual gamers who have absolutely no intentions of ever editing or creating.

While your way opens up new mission ideas and possibilities (which is a fantastic thing if done professionally)...its also tends to complicate things which leads to "turning off" mainstream casual users.

Again, dont get me wrong...as i used to consider myself quite hard-core back in the day...so i can feel for you and others who share that same philosophy...but sometimes as you get a bit older and spend more time with family obligations/career, etc, your time becomes much more limited as far as playing games and you reflexes and senses just arent quite what they used to be...its this sort of crowd who may certainly appreciate realism to a large extent, but not to the point where it starts taking away from the overall pleasurable gameplay experience where we are trying to truly escape reality in the first place, nor if it takes away from our actual gameplay time by forcing us to edit.

So while i understand the concept/s you believe in...even though i may also believe in them im also at a different point in my life and no longer have the time nor will for it any longer.

But as i said much earlier...I will of course play it and see what it has to offer as ive been waiting for this next version for a very long time.

[Metal Heart 0]

What's the point of playing if you can't lose? (since most coops are only lost by dying)

Overriding respawn setting would make the missions harder to make because you would have to consider where the players respawn and how it would completely mess up the mission difficulty etc so mission makers would probably just have some counter-measures for it, like having the respawn on an island 100km away from the action or detecting a respawning player and ending the mission for him or putting him into a camera script for the rest of the mission.

i dont understand why YOU dont understand...apparently you have little experience playing difficult levels because having limited/group respawns does not mean you will automatically win...far from it in fact.

In the past ive played lots of coop maps in OFP with some friends which had group respawning and there were many times we still could not complete the mission at hand...and at the time we were NOT bad players. Then again we never bothered with the "easy" maps.

Its hysterical to me that some of you actually think that by adding limited respawns theyd be hurting the game or making it too easy. Maybe you need to just turn up the difficulty or download better maps, dunno...but if youre only playing with 1 friend lets say, it can really suck without at least having group spawns when yer on a tough map.

Sorry but i just cant see having the ability to respawn maybe 3 times ruining the game. If anything, itll keep the majority of users playing longer to keep comming back for more.

...but for those of you who can rambo and/or command their way through hardened enemy lines with nothing but a pea shooter and come out unscaved with the same life they began with, this philosophy will of course not apply.

Oh I was replying to your original post which would suggest that the server could just set whatever respawn type (like base or instant). Group respawn is a completely different matter, I don't like it but it can make a big mission playable for a fewer number of players. Why I don't like it: it will usually result in silly rambo tactics, like leaving your 'respawns' behind or hidden and keep attacking or defending with the players only because in the missions that are balanced for a large number of people, the AI will just get them self killed and waste the respawns without causing much damage to the enemy.

And yeah, playing large missions with just a few players and group respawn will usually just make them harder.

Since it isn't apparent, let me tell you that I have played coops online more than a healthy dosage, you could almost say that I've been addicted to it at times, and I've made a handful of coops and adversial missions too so I would like to think that I know at least something about the subject.

Anyways, with JIP (join in progress) you might get what you wish even if you can't directly override the respawn setting.

[the unknown 0]

I see the option of turning respawn on by the admin like some one changeing your painting, and the missionmaker as the painter.

The painter spends his time on someting he makes and then some other dude comes along grabs the brush and changes it in a way the painter doesnt want it to be.

Missions are made by the Missionmakers they shouldnt be changed by players.

The Unknown

[benreeper 0]

And, as previously stated, respawns, in complex misssions, are usually integrel to the mission and changing the respawn could break the mission and or drastically change the way the designer intended for it to be played. The mission designer should always have the final say in these matters.

--Ben

[Zarkan 0]

Hello all,i need to ask somting for "save game" how much positions will be in ArmA "1" or more?.Because in ofp you hawe only one per mission to save your game end yea thx for your answer.

p.s:my english is crap so if you dont know what i mean dont bother whit that..

[andersson 285]

The painter spends his time on someting he makes and then some other dude comes along grabs the brush and changes it in a way the painter doesnt want it to be.

A have used the brush on alot of missions. I´m sure the painters dont know

To add something more useful.. I, personally, am satisfied with todays OFP system. But thats because it takes no time for me to change a mission to suit me and my friends. I can understand that it can be a good idea to make something so everyone, description.ext knowledge or not, can change it to whatever they prefer.

Idea: Maybe the missionmaker could define what "modes" the mission CANT be played with instead of choosing just one.

So if I make a mission that would be destroyed by base-respawn, I just define it so the players cant choose that option. But they are free to choose between no-respawn or group-respawn. (this is with a built in option for the players too choose their respawn...)