Addon/Mod Ownership - Q&A.

[Sigma-6 29]

Quote[/b] ]BBN’s use of BI Game Software and BI Tools in connection with DARWARS Ambush! is pursuant to a license.

What about Coalescent's exclusive rights to the North American market? Does this mean that BBN got around that by presenting BIS with a fait accompli, or am I reading this incorrectly? If so, any other company could potentially violate what I understood to be a binding agreement between BIS and Coalescent preventing any other company from licensing or pursuing a license to the engine in North America.

Clarification? My company was deterred from pursuing a license with BIS, by Coalescent, even after being approached by the Canadian Department of National Defense, on these grounds (Coalescent's exclusive license to the engine in the North American market) .

[akd 0]

That would be a pretty odd claim to make. If I made a model, and imported it into O2 and used it as an OFP addon, I'd lose my right to sell it. That's not defensible. The license agreement could not be read that way.

What would you do with your model if you did not import it into O2?

[Sigma-6 29]

Quote[/b] ]What would you do with your model if you did not import it into O2?

I'm not sure what you're asking. a model in 3ds format can be imported into pretty much any game. It can be used in 2d or 3d advertisement, sold to the consumer market to private enthusiasts or people on contracts who need material to fill out work on short deadlines. That's what any freelance modeller does with their work, even stuff from contracts that don't bind them to exclusivity. There are any number of buyers for that sort of work.

[llauma 0]

That would be a pretty odd claim to make. If I made a model, and imported it into O2 and used it as an OFP addon, I'd lose my right to sell it. That's not defensible. The license agreement could not be read that way.

Of course you dont loose the right to models which haven't been created or modified in O2, just to the actual files which has been altered in O2. This includes saving them as p3d's.

[Chris Death 0]

Just have a look at turbosquid (google will find it) and

check out for textures or model's prices.

You'll then probably see, why some addonmakers start

getting upset when use their work without permission.

Like Sigma already mentioned, this is not even limited to

the gaming world, as it's being used for advertisement,

or architect's previews or even movies.

Like i already posted in a previous thread about that topic,

models or textures, may have their own restriction (talking

about those being imported into o2 - especially models as textures is another story anyways) and whatever an EULA

for program A would say, if program B doesn't allow it's

result being used comercially, then the converting by program

A will not make it owned by program A at the end.

Same goes for free stuff taken from the web or elsewhere,

being restricted in their use - no license or whatever with

anybody else than the owner can change this restriction

and no other company will be able to say that this is now

their's because it has been used with their tools.

But they could disallow the use of their tools in combination

with whatever they want - e.g: you could then read in license that models from 'Electronic Farts' must not be imported - and maybe even a reason why (additional).

~S~ CD

[crashdome 3]

Has there been any changes to the way raw scripting code is licensed/owned? I assume not, because that is not BIS property at all.. correct?

*EDIT* The only reason I ask is this whole BBN - Addon thing does apply also to the scripting world.

They approached SOW team and requested permission also. I felt they were professional and respectful and they were given permission to use some of our scripts as I assume they also requested permission for several 3d model "add-ons". Assuming raw script code is 100% owned by us (unlike BIS retaining ownership of the file formats and tool-created content), I assume that it is simply an issue between us and them w/ no BIS involved? correct or no? So all text-based content is still fair game for sale/license to a commercial corporation for use in a commercially licensed BIS product?

[llauma 0]

Has there been any changes to the way raw scripting code is licensed/owned? I assume not, because that is not BIS property at all.. correct?

*EDIT* The only reason I ask is this whole BBN - Addon thing does apply also to the scripting world.

They approached SOW team and requested permission also. I felt they were professional and respectful and they were given permission to use some of our scripts as I assume they also requested permission for several 3d model "add-ons". Assuming raw script code is 100% owned by us (unlike BIS retaining ownership of the file formats and tool-created content), I assume that it is simply an issue between us and them w/ no BIS involved? correct or no? So all text-based content is still fair game for sale/license to a commercial corporation for use in a commercially licensed BIS product?

If the scripts are made from scratch I see now problem but if the scripts contains any code written by others then it's not really yours to give away unless you got a permission from the co-authors. Assuming that's not the case then it's up to you to what ever you want with it.

I'm not sure how it works in USA but in Europe you're allowed to sell expansions for games even though you're not the author of the game, presuming that you haven't violated any of the licence agreements while making it. So if I manage to create an expansion for OFP without the tools from BIS I can sell it in stores in Europe. You can compare it to spare parts for cars. Companies other than the manufacturer of the car are allowed to manufacture and sell spare parts. I'm sure that the publisher would try to fight it and it could possibly turn quite expensive to take it to court so it's probably cheaper and less risky to come to an agreement and get a licence. At least I wouldn't be willing to go to court against a multi-national company unless forced to.

It's nice to hear that they wanted your scripts but it's a shame if they they didn't pay you anything at all considering that the price of the final product will most likely be quite high as the potential custumers are quite wealthy in comparison. The fact that they seem to build their whole product based on free labour from the OFP community makes it outrageous.

[Hornet85 0]

but how will we know if some one use our stuf like this DARWARS bekus we cant get a hold of it and we cant take alook in to the p3ds and the textures codes on games we cant buy and from the looks of the DARWAR pics ther is alot of comunity addons so how do we know taht they havent used 1000s of addons from the comunity but ther is only like 10 on ther oficial pics?

Trusting the company when tehy are going to say taht no we do not use your stuf? Not after this one i belive

[offtime 0]

so all we need now, is to make models using tools that allow us to use our work in commercial way, and then sell them to ppl with proper step by step instructions on how to put them into OFP world

[ramboofp 0]

(Q) If the model and textures were created using software other than the one provided for free by BI and is later imported through O2, can the original source still be used for commercial purposes? (would love an official statement)

Of course the original can still be used! But if the derivative developed in O2 is very similar I guess it would be hard in a legal situation to prove...

hmmm

i usualy save each sept of my 3D work in Wing 3D

10-20 Save

so i can prove that it was builded in Wing3D

i think

so i can sell my 3D object build with only Wing3D

[crashdome 3]

Llauma, thanks for the explanation!

but as a note: I am well aware of what is going on (since I deal with and create software everyday). I was also not worried about any infringement on others since the code was 100% mine, even though I gave side-credits and inspirational credit to the whole SOW team. I even mentioned what I was going to do to the whole team before I even did it.

I only asked my question, because I wanted a BIS statement that confirms what I believe and understand thus far for two reasons A) for others in this community to understand what you helped explain in your post (thx ) and B) to make sure that what I know/understand is exacly what BIS knows/understands.

In crazy times like what has happened, I'd like to find that silver-lining.

Quote[/b] ]It's nice to hear that they wanted your scripts but it's a shame if they they didn't pay you anything at all considering that the price of the final product will most likely be quite high as the potential custumers are quite wealthy in comparison. The fact that they seem to build their whole product based on free labour from the OFP community makes it outrageous.

I feel no shame. I did my research beforehand.

First, I am not in this for the money. If it was the whole SOW project (which it wasn't) then maybe I would ask for compensation, but what they asked for I felt I could contribute as a donation without regret.

Second, it was my understanding that this was a funded research project, not a commercial or governmental licensed software 'product'. I admit I went off of what was posted on their websites and didn't ask them directly, but for the reasons I state above, I was in a giving mood anyway.

Part of what I found was this:

Quote[/b] ]7. Is DARWARS open source?

There are some component licensing issues still to be resolved, but generally the DARWARS tools and web services will be made available as open source as part of a developer community website. Other unresolved issues, such as what constitutes compatibility with the framework, and how that can be accomplished, will be resolved with input from all major DARWARS constituencies in the coming year.

8. What is BBN’s role in the DARWARS development?

BBN is the integration and architecture contractor for the DARPA DARWARS project. BBN will develop the framework. BBN anticipates that over the next year, several other vendors’ training systems will be deployed using the DARWARS infrastructure. BBN will support early adopters in their integration with DARWARS. Eventually, it expects a community of training developers and trainers to form around DARWARS and push the technology and the vision forward.

I am not sure of the EXACT meaning behind this, but I envisioned that BBN/Darpa/whatever is being paid for consultation/research and not for a 'product' directly. Assuming this, I envisioned my code was available to any and all of their clients/community free of cost. This is all I know. If anyone knows and can confirm with evidence that it is otherwise, I would like to know - even though I still would not regret having contributed my source.

I will make my big-money when the time comes

[llauma 0]

I will make my big-money when the time comes  

Sure I guess it's something worth adding to your CV. Perhaps they wouldn't have chosen your scripts if you wanted compensation so in the long run it might have been a smart move.

[andersgrim 0]

God I hope we will have at least one free mod for ArmA

[Chris Death 0]

Before i asumed that BBN asked everybody who's been involved for permission, now after reading Crashdome's post

this theory becomes even stronger, but one thing i see

is not good:

They didn't inform about their plans on comercial use of

addons or scripts or whatever, when asking for permission.

If it's like that then this is absolutely inacceptable, because

it can even take an addonmaker into troubles.

Like i already mentioned there's alot of textures for free out

on the web and most of them are restricted to non-comercial

use only. I'm using for my buildings lots of those too and

for sure there are many others who do same (maybe alter

them a little bit in photoshop or whatever tool).

Now if somebody asks me for permission to use those buildings

i'd say yes, but if then later comes out they were use for

comercial i'd be guilty of having given permission, and i could

get in troubles because of those textures.

OK, i'd not be the one who released them comercially to the

public and maybe later it would turn out that i have had no

fault, but who knows how long it would take and what troubles i could get in, until this would be sorted out.

~S~ CD

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

God I hope we will have at least one free mod for ArmA

I think alot of people are missing the point here. From what Placebo has already said no one is going to be able to charge for an addon or Mod without a license from BIS. Which I am sure would cost.

About the only thing you can do with an addon made with BIS tools is give it away. Scripts, as Crashdome hopes, you could conceivably sell. Although I doubt he would get “royaltiesâ€, more likely a one off payment.

If you make an addon, model it yourself, texture it and scripts it then fine. But what happens if you 'borrow' textures, model parts and scripts to make it? Even if you were to donate it free of charge legally you should seek permission from all the sources before saying someone can use it.

In the case of a BBN like scenario - if you could sell your 'addon' for commercial use you leave yourself open to legal action by the other people that contributed to your addon. This means all the textures you get from the internet, scripts you use from other authors etc. Even if you haven’t sold your addon, just donated it to a BBN like company you are still liable because you are ‘trading’ (legally this even means donating) a product that doesn’t not belong to you in its entirety and can be prosecuted under Copyright and Intellectual Property laws in most countries.

[crashdome 3]

Excellent points Rocko. Alot of newcomers don't realize that shortcuts by using free stuff isn't so easy or legal sometimes... even if others are 'doin it too'.

Chris, I fully agree with you and I do think that alot of this trouble was probably caused by overzealous behavior of some of their developers. Perhaps thinking it was 'OK' because BBN is a big-time company. I won't try and theorize their motives any further, but I think alot of artists in here and other places could learn alot from this.

Simply, if you want to be big-time, do it all yourself or get someone willing to work for you or with you. That's how all the real teams work. Shortcuts can only get you in trouble. I think the same applies to even add-ons/scripts within a community. We've certainly had our share of drama.

Funny thought: What I gave to BBN is free for download from my website... so if they are selling it, the buyers are getting ripped off!! hehe

Quote[/b] ]Sure I guess it's something worth adding to your CV. Perhaps they wouldn't have chosen your scripts if you wanted compensation so in the long run it might have been a smart move.

My thoughts then and now. I gave them permission to use the SOW Dynamic Dialogs. Something I wrote entirely myself in like 3 hours that would take any scriptor w/ half a brain the same amount of time. This way, my name is plastered on their credit list... and all it took was one email reply.

[ag_smith 0]

Before i asumed that BBN asked everybody who's been involved for permission, now after reading Crashdome's post

this theory becomes even stronger,(...)

To cut all the speculations, this theory is NOT true. So far they've asked only 2 people that I know of. However, they haven't asked me and a number of certain other people.

[Heatseeker 0]

Everytime i see this i just feel weird about it.

Im assuming/hoping this whole issue is being taken care of discretely, because it wouldnt take much trouble to expose the situation to the media and denouncing it to a possible costumer that might not be aware of what he has aquired.

I dont know if all the people whose work has been used are aware of this but considering the ones that do know whats going on are acting quiet i will assume something is going on ...

[Chris Death 0]

Before i asumed that BBN asked everybody who's been involved for permission, now after reading Crashdome's post

this theory becomes even stronger,(...)

To cut all the speculations, this theory is NOT true. So far they've asked only 2 people that I know of. However, they haven't asked me and a number of certain other people.

My theory was only built from true facts yet - like you said

above - they were asking 2 people and those two people

were the only ones i've seen responding yet.

Your reply was the first one to confirm that they did what

lots of people were accusing them.

You will not hear any good word about them from

Chris Death anymore

I'd say: "hang them higher"

I really hope that noone who's work has been used is getting

into further troubles (like i mentioned above) because of

what BBN has done here.

Also it's a pain that there's not really a chance of checking out, who's work has been used or not besides those pics

available for the free folks.

~S~ CD

[deanosbeano 0]

you know its so strange i always knew i seen heetsekers avatar before ,then i remembered this.site i visited.and suddenly here is a whole thread about darwars. a strange site i once went to that had videos of soldiers practicing for iraq, they were calling the game ofp

anyway i saved a link dunno if it still works ,it uses quick time and i aint havin that on pc. hope ya can see if they use ya addons .

bbn`s ambush

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

you know its so strange i always knew i seen heetsekers avatar before ,then i remembered this.site i visited.and suddenly here is a whole thread about darwars. a strange site i once went to that had videos of soldiers practicing for iraq, they were calling the game ofp      

but it wasnt ,it was vbs. anyway i saved a link dunno if it still works ,it uses quick time and i aint havin that on pc. hope ya can see if they use ya addons .

bbn`s ambush

Thanks not VBS is OFP:Resistance... that movie is one of the things that sparked all this off.

[deanosbeano 0]

ah yes i see it now, thank god for converters . had another look, originally i saw opfor and blufor and thought 1+1 = 3 .

strange how he looks like the twin of the codemasters chap too huh . guba2 the second coming ?

[JdB 151]

guba2 the second coming ?

If he lets BIS use his face so that we can blow it apart in Next Gen game......

I am bothered by a particular remark ''we have done this kind of thing before''...

[nephilim 0]

so basically

if i make my addons with scratch made tools

i could sell them rite?

[JdB 151]

if i make my addons with scratch made tools

i could sell them rite?

There would be nothing that would tie the created content to BIS, as nothing is used in the process of creating this content that was developed by BIS (apart from your gained experience in making the stuff you did for OFP).